The Paradox of the Well of the Furies

[Erratic1]

14 hours ago, Ukase said:

All the science and ingenuity Reed Richards came up with, I don't think I ever saw him use a ray gun. (he could have, I didn't get to read every issue) 

 

There was that time he used one on his son....

Spoiler

[

 

Edited September 15 by Erratic1

[Scarlet Shocker]

On 9/14/2024 at 12:42 AM, PeregrineFalcon said:

 What would you replace it with if you had the ability to do so?

 

Oh I definitely have some ideas... it would obviously involve Nemesis, who seems to imagine himself the greatest chess player without recognising his limitations.

 

I think I recall Positron, in an AMA once saying that Lady Gray was a sleeper agent. I suspect he was at best being mischievous with that, but I would probably riff on that a little too.

 

It'd probably be based around Mender Silos fabricating this entire tall tale around Ouroboros at the end of the universe, and every time a player character uses it to get from place to place through time a tiny tiny part of their power is siphoned off to his giant temporal space battery which he is using in his war against the Kheldians.

 

He's at war with them because in their home world they are guarding a great and powerful force and bits of that force have dribbled into Primal Earth due to their dealings with us. So he's trying to steal it for himself and take over the universe.

 

Oh and the Kheldian in the Ouro. Twilights Son? He's either very very stupid, a traitor or a simulacrum, whichever you please.

 

And the bit where you beat up the bad guys in the crashed Ouroboros? Those "bad guys" had rumbled him and had almost managed to beat him if it wasn't for us pesky kids...

 

so it becomes kinda circular but hopefully a bit more interesting, gives us a bit more control of our own destiny and I hope perhaps a little more amusing.

Edited September 15 by Scarlet Shocker
TS

[Snarky]

I kill stuff with superpowers.  Which gets me MORE superpowers.  
 

and you had me at “kill stuff”

[Triumphant]

5 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

Oh I definitely have some ideas... it would obviously involve Nemesis, who seems to imagine himself the greatest chess player without recognising his limitations.

 

I think I recall Positron, in an AMA once saying that Lady Gray was a sleeper agent. I suspect he was at best being mischievous with that, but I would probably riff on that a little too.

 

It'd probably be based around Mender Silos fabricating this entire tall tale around Ouroboros at the end of the universe, and every time a player character uses it to get from place to place through time a tiny tiny part of their power is siphoned off to his giant temporal space battery which he is using in his war against the Kheldians.

 

He's at war with them because in their home world they are guarding a great and powerful force and bits of that force have dribbled into Primal Earth due to their dealings with us. So he's trying to steal it for himself and take over the universe.

 

Oh and the Kheldian in the Ouro. Twilights Son? He's either very very stupid, a traitor or a simulacrum, whichever you please.

 

And the bit where you beat up the bad guys in the crashed Ouroboros? Those "bad guys" had rumbled him and had almost managed to beat him if it wasn't for us pesky kids...

 

so it becomes kinda circular but hopefully a bit more interesting, gives us a bit more control of our own destiny and I hope perhaps a little more amusing.

 

Well, it's definitely not more hackneyed that the established incarnate lore. 😄  Of course, as others have said, I think it's too late the change it, at this point.  With all canon, in all entertainment media, I just ignore the things that seem stupid and retrofit it in my brain, with whatever actually makes sense.  For example, I regard the Star Wars prequel trilogy as merely a vague outline of historical events, written after the fact, by someone that had access to incomplete and inaccurate information.  And the sequel trilogy?  Well, it just didn't happen.  The New Republlic exists, yes.  And there are some Imperial Remnants that still tangle with them, yes.  The call themselves the 1st order, or something.  But Han Solo didn't die like an two-bit extra, impaled on the end of his kid's lightsaber.  Luke isn't a bitter old hermit.  The Imps didn't build a 3rd, planet-sized death star weapon.  So on.

[FDR's Think Tank]

I guess if you WERE going to scrub the Incarnate Content from the game.... you'd bounce back to the most obvious move, which is raising the level cap.

What that would mean for characters is a different question...

-Do you allow more slots in powers after level 50?

-Do you give players the ability to open a tertiary Power Set... or rely on Pool and Epic Pool Powers to fill the gaps?

-Do you give players the ability to further modify existing powers outside of the slot system (because at a certain point, more powers isn't as important as developing existing abilities.)

-What Zones do you open up to go beyond Level 50?

 

Interesting idea, but it will NEVER be explored on Homecoming Servers. You would need to host your own server and mod it to taste using this mindset.

 

Now, something that would be compatible with Incarnate might be that at level 50, you're able to access Alternate Universe versions of your character that exist as different Archetypes. Only one Archetype can be active at a time and it would function similar to how alternate builds/costumes function. You simply get the ability to build out every possible archetype using that same character name. This would be a very different version of endgame content, but also allows players to hunt down stories and missions they didn't complete with that character on their first (or following) runthrough(s).

 

Then you pave the path for saying "We can have loads more content before Endgame, since the whole game is also endgame, in it's own manner." I realize that technically, this is what Ourobos is for... and you could still use it to do this.... but I think this version is more Elegant.

[Scarlet Shocker]

I wasn't advocating deleting the content from the game. If you got that impression I expressed it wrong. I'm fundamentally against content removal for any number of reasons - not the least of which is while I might hate something others might love it and given I'm not in charge of the game then I don't get to impact others' play negatively.

 

What I would advocate is that the story is modified somewhat (retconned is the phrase all the cool kids use these days I understand) and another story of duplicity laid on top of it to explain it. (See above.)

 

I actually think the powers and power trees in the Incarnate system works reasonably well. I have some minor issues with them but fundamentally I think they add more to the character progression than they remove. My big gripe is the story of the Well itself, but I also have huge issues with some of the IContent. TPN above is one of my big gripes but the biggest is

 

Spoiler

where Cole blows up (himself? and) Praetoria  - despite you having beaten up every single one of his allies, agents and henchmen, you are reduced literally to the role of bystander in your own story as his story takes precedence over yours. But you and a whole bunch of your mates who might be the greatest superteam in the known Paragonad universe cannot stop a lunatic from destroying his world.

 

I'm all for dramatic interludes but that took the real biscuit and for me capped off a pretty miserably written experience.

 

Some of the content was good and well written. UG trial for example. The Lambda and BAF showed us that we could take on Praetoria and win.

 

On the other hand I strongly dislike that you cannot join the Loyalists at the end of the Praetorian arc. Even if you loathe Cole and what he turns out to be, there is a compelling case that you might believe after all you've seen that his ultimate goal was not as misguided as first appears.

 

That makes no logical sense and the Resistance is even worse.

Spoiler

Calvin Scott being insane and a sudden handwave "oh we're not married old chap, you're deluded" makes me WTF every time I read such a poorly executed cut scene.

 

I must admit I was initially resistant  (no pun intended) to the increase in power levels since they might ruin existing content but that balance is reasonably well dealt with and the game was crying out for some further power progression that wasn't simply an additional 30 levels bolted on at the end of your first 50.

 

(One of the things I truly loved about The Secret World was its lack of levels - your character progression was amazing there even with the clunkiness of the power wheels and other game issues. But it did take a bit to get your head around but not poorly so.)

 

So... TL;DR - no don't scrap it. Do something good with it. The cake has been made, but is singed around the edges and raw in the middle. That's not an insuperable challenge with a bit of imagination and quality writing.

[Snarky]

15 hours ago, Triumphant said:

 

Well, it's definitely not more hackneyed that the established incarnate lore. 😄  Of course, as others have said, I think it's too late the change it, at this point.  With all canon, in all entertainment media, I just ignore the things that seem stupid and retrofit it in my brain, with whatever actually makes sense.  For example, I regard the Star Wars prequel trilogy as merely a vague outline of historical events, written after the fact, by someone that had access to incomplete and inaccurate information.  And the sequel trilogy?  Well, it just didn't happen.  The New Republlic exists, yes.  And there are some Imperial Remnants that still tangle with them, yes.  The call themselves the 1st order, or something.  But Han Solo didn't die like an two-bit extra, impaled on the end of his kid's lightsaber.  Luke isn't a bitter old hermit.  The Imps didn't build a 3rd, planet-sized death star weapon.  So on.

Wow.  You really made me glad i never watched the star wars sequels. 
 

(except the one where they stole the Death Star plans… which i guess was a prequel?  Very good)

Edited September 16 by Snarky

[Jimpy2]

On 9/13/2024 at 6:52 PM, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

 

It seems so fractured that the Well can do whatever it likes and holds to no game logic or semblance of reason.

 

Is it too late to scrub it from the game and come up with something that makes sense in terms of game lore and human logic?

unlike most of my friends who play the game, you actually read the lore. There is one person I play with who never reads anything other than the mission objectives. He’s the first to comment that the mission is stupid. I say just kill the baddies and move on. 
 

my problem with the game isn’t the incarnate system but the general power dynamics of higher level mobs. I have a fire/willpower super enhancement set decked out incarnate tank. I discovered one day that Eochai couldn’t kill it. One on one I couldn’t kill Eochai either. After some experimenting, I discovered most giant monsters couldn’t. Jurassik could but he was the only one. But if I go to PI and I could get killed one on one by many of the devouring earth monsters. Even some AVs can kill me. It doesn’t make sense, so I try and ignore it unless I can use it to my advantage. Around Halloween a couple years ago, a group of 5 of us, were taking on Jack in Talos. We weren’t getting very far, so I put my tank on auto taunt, loaded my second account and got my radiation debuffer. It worked. It may be illogical that it works that way, but it does so I just file it away until needed.

[Scarlet Shocker]

54 minutes ago, Jimpy2 said:

unlike most of my friends who play the game, you actually read the lore. There is one person I play with who never reads anything other than the mission objectives. He’s the first to comment that the mission is stupid. I say just kill the baddies and move on. 
 

my problem with the game isn’t the incarnate system but the general power dynamics of higher level mobs. I have a fire/willpower super enhancement set decked out incarnate tank. I discovered one day that Eochai couldn’t kill it. One on one I couldn’t kill Eochai either. After some experimenting, I discovered most giant monsters couldn’t. Jurassik could but he was the only one. But if I go to PI and I could get killed one on one by many of the devouring earth monsters. Even some AVs can kill me. It doesn’t make sense, so I try and ignore it unless I can use it to my advantage. Around Halloween a couple years ago, a group of 5 of us, were taking on Jack in Talos. We weren’t getting very far, so I put my tank on auto taunt, loaded my second account and got my radiation debuffer. It worked. It may be illogical that it works that way, but it does so I just file it away until needed.

 

"And there came a day, a day unlike any other, when Earth's mightiest heroes and heroines found themselves united against a common threat...."

 

I don't have a problem with what you've described, because fundamentally the game is a team game and is meant to be played by several people. (Remember, in Avengers, Hulk had to leave because he's OP, and MCU pulled  a crappy stunt in Endgame to take him out of the equation too.)

 

I read some Lore. I don't read it all, I wouldn't in any way consider myself an expert but I was minded to in this instance simply because the WotF story was such arsewater, and nothing I've read or seen Lore-wise has changed my opinion of it.

 

I'm very aware I could head-canon it in a different direction but that's a poor fix at best. Such a great game, frankly, deserves better story telling. That, perhaps, is my biggest beef with it. If the game itself was mediocre and less important to me I wouldn't give a flying wossname but I do because I love the game and set high expectations of it.

 

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

Wow.  You really made me glad i never watched the star wars sequels. 
 

(except the one where they stole the Death Star plans… which i guess was a prequel?  Very good)

 

to be fair, there's very little good about Star Wars. Most of the stories are ripped from elsewhere - that's really obvious in IV - but it doesn't require the audience to think very much so it's popular.

[Triumphant]

8 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

to be fair, there's very little good about Star Wars. Most of the stories are ripped from elsewhere - that's really obvious in IV - but it doesn't require the audience to think very much so it's popular.

 

Well, I agree with you, for the most part.  It's more or less 30's era pulp serials (Flash Gordon, etc.), re-tooled for a modern audience.  Still, there's good pulp and bad pulp.  And there's respecting the legacy material, which the prequels do poorly (IMO) and the sequels don't do at all, except in the sense that they copy/paste certain things from the original trilogy.  This is all my subjective opinion, of course.  I don't want to be too dogmatic about it.  Star Wars fans can be persnickety enough as it is. 😄

 

12 hours ago, Snarky said:

Wow.  You really made me glad i never watched the star wars sequels. 
 

(except the one where they stole the Death Star plans… which i guess was a prequel?  Very good)

Rogue One was very good, I agree!  It's my 4th favorite SW film after the original three.  👍

Edited September 16 by Triumphant

[Jacke]

On 9/15/2024 at 10:22 AM, Scarlet Shocker said:

But we also know that Mender Silos and his crew of ne'er do-wells, with a very very dodgy past, are less than straight with us poor saps who they are recruiting for a battle at the end of time. (Something I cannot decide is more influenced by Michael Moorcock or Douglas Adams.) It would be relatively easy to say "they're lying to you" and turn that into a thing - they say it's the Well, Posi couldn't disprove that, but then it turns out to be something else entirely (Or perhaps it is a kind of well but not how they described.)

 

Reference the bold text:  Why not both?

 

Throw in some Isaac Asimov too (The End of Eternity (1955) which does seem to be awfully like a recent production of a large studio....).

 

 

On 9/15/2024 at 10:22 AM, Scarlet Shocker said:

Conclusion: I think there's more that can be done with the story, and make it interesting as well as exciting - but it would take some skill and craft to do so and probably conflicts terribly with all the plans that the Devs currently have. And even if it didn't, I doubt they'd tell us 😀

 

Welp, doing more with the story would be good.  Guess it would start with fixing some past issues.  As hard as that would be.  Maybe some day.

[DocBeard]

I think a lot of this dissonance comes directly from the needs of City of Villains.

 

Classic City of Heroes was based around the idea that the great heroes of the past era were largely killed or depowered by the Rikti War. All that was really left were the tattered remains of the Freedom Phalanx, which once had a whole faction's worth of members and resources but was reduced to seven half retired, overwhelmed, or extremely damaged heroes, and the wet behind the ears and a little dodgy Vindicators. The Well was around in a much more passive way as of Statesman's early game/Web of Arachnos origin, as a Pandora's box that was implied to have kickstarted the age of superheroes when Marcus and Stefan managed to open it. The new generation of superheroes were the pcs and the active factions in game were all villains which got around the old rift between MMO players who like hanging out with sig npcs and ones who don't. The signature heroes were all in a bad way and helping train you up, so interactions with them were rare and special, climaxing in fighting alongside Statesman in the old Statesman's Pal mission. The well created the agency in humanity needed to defend against the threats of the superheroic age without being directly responsible for everything, which was a pretty okay compromise for a superheroic setting.

 

One very interesting bit from the available story bible is the remains of old builds, where influence was more directly fame and fame itself was empowering, which reads to me as a very greek mythic idea. I'll get back to this in a bit.

 

Then CoV became a thing and obviously you want to pit your freshly minted bad guys against the forces of good. And I think the writing really took a step up here in a lot of places, but it's also where the FP was on the mend and the Vindicators were coming into their own, along with older or defunct groups coming back (Vanguard as heirs to the Dawn Patrol, the Midnighters). This means you have more npc heroes doing things, and the core signature heroes have to feel as special and fun to fight as villain group AVs. They show up more, are more proactive. In some cases this is great: to me Ms Liberty only really got interesting when she started feuding with her grandfather on the direction superheroing should go, a really interesting idea they pretty much dropped in favor of killing Statesman. The City of Villains era might have the strongest setting level writing in the game but it also sets the stage for the NPCs to feel like the active movers on the board.

 

Cue the incarnate system, which makes the decision to fully anthropomorphize the well instead of using the furies from Web of Arachnos or similar avatars. Not only that, it hates the guys on the boxes. Recluse is a trickster and Statesman a coward, your new endgame system says, and you'll be bigger than both of them. We promise. But because of the nature of the MMO format even if you're into that kind of storytelling the best you're going to get is the Statesman or Recluse task forces, and even then they up and kill Statesman so your villain can't even get a badge for beating him up anymore. So not only is the incarnate story forcing you down an antagonistic path leading directly to the setting wiping Battalion story (and, frankly, we have Rularu at home for big diverse alien threats.) but you don't even get to be good at it. CoX as a storytelling medium was always at its best letting you build stories with its fantastic toy box, which is why its strongest storytelling is at the small to mid sized range. There's a lot of good in Going Rogue but I feel like it forgot that, lost the personal touch in the wake of Praetoria's great self destructive drama and Prime timeline's need to keep up in ways it really didn't.

 

So in conclusion what I'd have done with the Incarnate system, from a storytelling perspective, is cleave to the older lore. Your hero or villain reaches a Herculean level of fame and influence that is transforming them into the next stage, which'll be kept pleasantly vague, and the Well encourages this. It doesn't care how you use your powers as long as you use them in huge, epic ways, because that's how gods are made, and gods are what'll be needed for the troubles coming down the line. This ties in nicely with CoH's background storyline and could set the stage for a Rikti homeworld expansion where you challenge the true alien masters of the great invaders. Most importantly it's flexible; you can be as involved with the Well as you want because it works passively.

[Greycat]

On 9/13/2024 at 5:52 PM, Scarlet Shocker said:

BUT...

if you read the story, the Well of the Furies acknowledges power and gifts itself to those who show it.

 

But you'll never be as powerful as the signature characters, and they don't show any evidence of the Well blessing them. So what is it doing?

 

I don't trust the "Well of the Furies" for so many many reasons - not the least of which is that nobody is able to tell us what it is. Which in itself is stupid considering that in Paragon, the Rogue Isles and Praetoria we have access to amazing technicians, scientists, magicians and sensei who could guide and help us mere player characters in checking out what it is.

 

 

 

So, missed this thread before.

 

I did an overview of Epics (planned, changed and otherwise) over in guides.  Incarnates are among them. You *were* planned to get... rather stupidly powerful, frankly (enough that they were basically invalidating earlier Incarnate powers.) You would fight both with and against Wells, not to mention Ascended and Dimensionless. (And higher up the tree there, too. Feel like fighting aspects of primordial chaos and order?)

 

I don't think the information *really* made it into the game, but the Wells are supposed to be a buffer between a race and "the Source." The one on Earth is apparently weird in actually giving out powers. (Part of what gained the Battalion's interest.) If that's *anywhere* it's probably in Prometheus's infodump menu.

 

As far as "never as powerful as the signature characters?" Even ignoring Incarnate powers, that's put to the test many times. How many people can fight AVs now - and do so in safeguard/mayhem missions, where they show up as potential adversaries? Recluse's Victory? The last arc in the VEAT missions have you taking down both Recluse and going to fight Statesman (and, in theory, winning.) Heroside, you *used* to face down Tyrant himself when you went to free Statesman (so... yeah, heroes basically got a downgrade here,) who's also an Incarnate after all.

 

So, I'd say that by the end... yes, you are matching the signature characters' power, and would have gone well beyond that with everything else that was planned. And would *not,* eventually (post-Battalion) have been tied to the Well, since you'd have surpassed it.