New Archetypes

[Fr0sTByTe_369]

Not as demanding as coding a whole new powerset but I know it would still require some work, but a couple new archetypes to fit rolls/themes I think are missing is a Melee/Support (Could just make scrapper primary powersets available under Defender secondaries as it would still fit the "Defender" narrative) and Ranged DPS/CC. Controllers have support and Doms are more of a mixed bag. Could maybe give Controllers access to corruptor primaries but this one might just need it's own Archetype. 

[JasperStone]

Good suggestion.

Have you checked out this thread?

 

 

[Snarky]

I am of the opposite view.  How is doing a new archetype not as difficult as a new powerset?   
 

also, there are some very good examples of what you are asking for already existing in niche powersets within the current structure.  And how are doms not ranged dps/cc?

[Laucianna]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

I am of the opposite view.  How is doing a new archetype not as difficult as a new powerset?   
 

also, there are some very good examples of what you are asking for already existing in niche powersets within the current structure.  And how are doms not ranged dps/cc?

You also have to worry about giving that AT it's unique feeling, which for some like Mastermind it's easy, but Scrappers/Brutes/Tankers are very similar and leads to trying to find a unique feature about playing a brute compared to the other two

[Snarky]

20 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

You also have to worry about giving that AT it's unique feeling, which for some like Mastermind it's easy, but Scrappers/Brutes/Tankers are very similar and leads to trying to find a unique feature about playing a brute compared to the other two

Well, it would help if every Dev community in succession had not taken turns on the Brute AT...

[JasperStone]

Thank you  @Snarky  and  @Laucianna  for your much valued and knowledgeable responses.

 

My response was based on the OP having only four posts since 2021....

 

I felt that it was best to give them a direction so they could evaluate their proposal.

[Fr0sTByTe_369]

On 9/29/2024 at 5:20 AM, JasperStone said:

Good suggestion.

Have you checked out this thread?

 

I have! And it was nice to see that some movement was made because of the recycling aspect makes it easier. I also perused this forum back 8 pages or so and saw a lot of suggestions for completely new powersets which is what I was referencing in my OP. The recycling post is what made me think adding melee powersets to defender could work easier than developing a new archetype. It's also what made me think creating a new archetype with already developed powersets from controllers and corruptors would be easier to accomplish. Dominator is kind of a blaster controller mix, but assault is not the same as having dedicated ranged powers. Defender/Corruptor/Sentinel/Blaster sets combined with Controller or Dominator primaries is what I mean. Dual Pistols with Plant Control for one of my own character concept if I need to give specifics for clarification. 

 

And sure, I haven't been active on the forums much but socializing isn't quite my thing, which is probably why I have such severe altitus that I am bringing up these character creation shortfalls. 

 

Edit: Goodness trying to find a way to format this post on mobile has been such a hassle. 

Edited October 10 by Fr0sTByTe_369

[Without_Pause]

On 9/29/2024 at 7:37 AM, Snarky said:

I am of the opposite view.  How is doing a new archetype not as difficult as a new powerset?   
 

also, there are some very good examples of what you are asking for already existing in niche powersets within the current structure.  And how are doms not ranged dps/cc?

No Domination mode, and I'm not sure how you make the DPS stand out. Sents struggled with this as they can't compete with Blasters for pure DPS so they had to be unique in some way. 

[Alchemystic]

Figure I'd weigh in here since I've been pinged

From my (somewhat limited) understanding of how archetypes are designed, I'm led to believe they are a lot more work than they appear.

If we take Stalkers and Sentinels for example, they both use existing powersets in their setup, but they have to be reworked in order to suit the needs of the archetype. This is a pretty lengthy process, and in some cases some powersets may not even be viable (Shield Defense on Sentinels, Titan Weapons on Stalkers, etc). So the work being done to make an archetypes is going to pile up.

Melee/Support gets suggested a lot, and I mean a lot, but despite it's popularity there are a lot of problems regarding how to balance it. I'm sure they've tried, it's unlikely that they haven't at least given it some thought, but I think it definitely says something about how difficult these things can be if we haven't seen it happen yet.

 

 

Edited September 30 by Alchemystic

[FDR's Think Tank]

Sentinel added Ranged/Armor... so what's missing for Archetypes is Armor/Crowd Control, Support/Counterstrike, Melee/Support, and Counterstrike/Summons.

 

Counterstrike is a combination of Armor and stackable/toggle automatic parry/counter attacks. It's a defensive set that focuses on punishing strikes against the user.

 

Enforcer - Armor/Crowd Control

This is like a "Power Armor" Set with Big weapons that do AoE damage and Suppressive actions. As aggro grows, his armor gets less effective, but his Damage gets boosts. Unlike the Brute, he isn't tracking his own anger, but the anger of OTHERS. Can handle one on one against a boss or a crowd of little guys... but not really both at the same time.

 

Guardian - Support/Counterstrike

This Archetype's Support abilities tend towards single target Debuff, drawing aggro. This, in turn drives it's Counterstrike Powerset. The idea is to draw in attackers with debuffs that typically don't immobilize, then take them out with clever counterstrikes and durability.

 

Commander - Counterstrike/Summons

This Archetype uses it's Summons to generate aggro, which is all redirected to the Commander AT. Then it uses it's system of Counterstrike to engage in thrilling Melee which inspires the summons to fight harder.

 

Reaver - Melee/Support

This Archetype wades into battle to strike with melee hits and uses support abilities (Which also work on itself). As it's HP get's lower, it's support abilities get stronger, making it tougher to kill.

 

 

 

 

and those four would round out the 5 AT we should have gotten from Goldside.

[Perma-Newbie]

Melee/Support so I can have a whip/pain demon as soon as whip melee is released.

[Snarky]

4 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

No Domination mode, and I'm not sure how you make the DPS stand out. Sents struggled with this as they can't compete with Blasters for pure DPS so they had to be unique in some way. 

So, if your metric is “it is Blaster damage or it is not DPS” i am unsure what to say….  Make a Blaster?

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

Armor/Crowd Control

Armor/mezzes sounds interesting, but I don't see it as being feasible. You would be essentially unkillable, but you're not going to clear anything either.

 

3 hours ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

Support/Counterstrike, Melee/Support, and Counterstrike/Summons.

What is "Counterstrike"?!

[Andreah]

On 9/29/2024 at 8:54 AM, Snarky said:

Well, it would help if every Dev community in succession had not taken turns on the Brute AT...

So true! When it would  have been far better for the game if when side-switching or make-any-archetype-anywhere was released, they just turned all the brutes into scrappers, and removed the brute archetype. And then maybe let scrappers choose between either a critical hits or fury oriented inherent.

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, Andreah said:

So true! When it would  have been far better for the game if when side-switching or make-any-archetype-anywhere was released, they just turned all the brutes into scrappers, and removed the brute archetype. And then maybe let scrappers choose between either a critical hits or fury oriented inherent.

I cannot respond to this without getting permanently banned.

[Andreah]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I cannot respond to this without getting permanently banned.

You win!!

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, Krimson said:

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I cannot respond to this without getting permanently banned.

Melee/Control would work. My Kin/Kin would thrive. 

My post you are quoting has nothing to do with mixing melee with controls. It was strictly about the post I quoted in that post.

[FDR's Think Tank]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Armor/mezzes sounds interesting, but I don't see it as being feasible. You would be essentially unkillable, but you're not going to clear anything either.

 

What is "Counterstrike"?!

 

On Enforcer, thats why, as he generates aggro, his damage grows, but his armor gets less effective.  He is killable, if he doesn't manage his aggro well. Of course, if he doesn't generate enough aggro, he's a slog to play as you note. That's what makes it interesting: managing the balance between being slow and tough... and being a glass jawed killing machine.

 

The Crowd Control he does is mostly through taunt, stun, and things that don't prevent enemies from attacking. Of course, there is variation in the powersets, but he has lots of cones and PBAoE abilities.

 

Most Enforcers will probably want to take a Melee Pool Power or something to give them striking, but there may be other strategies for running them.

 

And I described Counterstrike..... but I can try a different way to explain: Similar to the Dominators Secondary being a blend of Melee and Ranged Attacks, Counterstrike is a blend of Defensive Boosts and abilities that activate Counterattacks or Damage upon being hit. There are no direct strikes, but you activate a "Parry" type ability that lasts for a few seconds. If you get hit by an ability the parry is effective against, your character deals a strike automatically in response. This kind of fighting is more about knowing how the enemies operate and using it against them. It's complex, but only slightly so. I know some people will hate playing these type of characters and some people will adore it.

Edited September 30 by FDR's Think Tank

[Snarky]

56 minutes ago, Rudra said:

My post you are quoting has nothing to do with mixing melee with controls. It was strictly about the post I quoted in that post.

[Rudra]

19 minutes ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

On Enforcer, thats why, as he generates aggro, his damage grows, but his armor gets less effective.  He is killable, if he doesn't manage his aggro well. Of course, if he doesn't generate enough aggro, he's a slog to play as you note. That's what makes it interesting: managing the balance between being slow and tough... and being a glass jawed killing machine.

 

The Crowd Control he does is mostly through taunt, stun, and things that don't prevent enemies from attacking. Of course, there is variation in the powersets, but he has lots of cones and PBAoE abilities.

 

Most Enforcers will probably want to take a Melee Pool Power or something to give them striking, but there may be other strategies for running them.

I see your post that has Enforcer, and I have an issue with it. The reason why Controllers have so few HP and straight damaging attacks is because they can lock enemies down with their mezzes. So they rely on their mezzes and/or their teammates to keep the enemies from killing them. Your armor/control scheme? Means that character can face tank enemies until they get the enemies locked down with their mezzes, at which point, who cares if their armors degrade in favor of damage? Nothing is going to be fighting them for that armor to matter any more anyway, so of course they will prefer the damage increase. So I have to say: No.

 

26 minutes ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

And I described Counterstrike.....

No, you didn't describe Counterstrike. Here is what you posted for it:

 

6 hours ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

Guardian - Support/Counterstrike

This Archetype's Support abilities tend towards single target Debuff, drawing aggro. This, in turn drives it's Counterstrike Powerset. The idea is to draw in attackers with debuffs that typically don't immobilize, then take them out with clever counterstrikes and durability.

 

Commander - Counterstrike/Summons

This Archetype uses it's Summons to generate aggro, which is all redirected to the Commander AT. Then it uses it's system of Counterstrike to engage in thrilling Melee which inspires the summons to fight harder.

The problem? Any attack you do after an enemy attacks you is a counterstrike. Every AT in the game counterstrikes.

 

29 minutes ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

but I can try a different way to explain: Similar to the Dominators Secondary being a blend of Melee and Ranged Attacks, Counterstrike is a blend of Defensive Boosts and abilities that activate Counterattacks or Damage upon being hit. There are no direct strikes, but you activate a "Parry" type ability that lasts for a few seconds. If you get hit by an ability the parry is effective against, your character deals a strike automatically in response.

Okay, so your Counterstrike is a triggered attack that cannot happen unless an enemy hits you first. That's a good way to get your characters killed in this game. Nice concept, but I really don't see it working in CoX.

[Andreah]

At the risk of being silly again, I would have fun with a kin/kin defen-ruptor.

[biostem]

On 9/29/2024 at 2:26 AM, Fr0sTByTe_369 said:

a couple new archetypes to fit rolls/themes I think are missing

TBH, I don't think there is a shortage of ideas for new ATs or different powerset combos, but rather how to fit them into the existing paradigm while also making them unique/different enough to warrant the time investment it would require to make them a reality.

 

Personally, I think some sort of melee/support, pets/melee, control/armor or other such permutations could be very fun to play...

[megaericzero]

39 minutes ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

The Crowd Control he does is mostly through taunt, stun, and things that don't prevent enemies from attacking.

Erm, stun prevents enemies from attacking. Did you mean immobilize?

 

40 minutes ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

And I described Counterstrike..... but I can try a different way to explain: Similar to the Dominators Secondary being a blend of Melee and Ranged Attacks, Counterstrike is a blend of Defensive Boosts and abilities that activate Counterattacks or Damage upon being hit. There are no direct strikes, but you activate a "Parry" type ability that lasts for a few seconds. If you get hit by an ability the parry is effective against, your character deals a strike automatically in response. This kind of fighting is more about knowing how the enemies operate and using it against them. It's complex, but only slightly so. I know some people will hate playing these type of characters and some people will adore it.

If it's going to be a unique mechanic that everyone in the archetype uses regardless of power set, you may want to make it the/an inherent. Not that there isn't precedence - like Hide or Taunt - but at the point where there isn't even an exception to prove the rule and its so fundamental to the playstyle, you may want to consider not even making it a power pick.

[FDR's Think Tank]

On 9/30/2024 at 7:43 PM, megaericzero said:

Erm, stun prevents enemies from attacking. Did you mean immobilize?

 

If it's going to be a unique mechanic that everyone in the archetype uses regardless of power set, you may want to make it the/an inherent. Not that there isn't precedence - like Hide or Taunt - but at the point where there isn't even an exception to prove the rule and its so fundamental to the playstyle, you may want to consider not even making it a power pick.

 True you can taunt stunned enemies and still draw aggro from them, right?

 

And inherent can't create specific counters. It would just be a generalized counter mechanic... which is interesting, but not really enough.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

True you can taunt stunned enemies and still draw aggro from them, right?

Stunned enemies do the drunken walk/slide, (but can't attack), and can sometimes fly off at high speeds, but otherwise, yeah - they can move, just not attack...