A look at mob group balance in the presence of Moment of Glory and like

[DrRocket]

Just a thought

 

    In the past, I had sought for ways to minimize the "boring" impact when a mob goes into "na na na, I am invincible" mode. And the conclusion was that there is nothing can be done about because how the game is coded, short of all players focus on them.

 

    The all players focus on the "boredom" mode mobs, can work, but only when there are only one or two mobs that does that. 

 

    But when I do TFs and gees, enter a mission and it looks like planet of the PPs, gees that is just abusive! Thus my recommendation, is that no group can have more than 2 mobs with the "Moment of Glory" like property.

 

    Only a suggestion, to reduce the "boredom" factor built-in with the PP like mobs

 

Any thoughts? As always, a good opportunity to learn from this is always appreciated

[TheMoneyMaker]

12 minutes ago, DrRocket said:

Just a thought

 

    In the past, I had sought for ways to minimize the "boring" impact when a mob goes into "na na na, I am invincible" mode. And the conclusion was that there is nothing can be done about because how the game is coded, short of all players focus on them.

 

    The all players focus on the "boredom" mode mobs, can work, but only when there are only one or two mobs that does that. 

 

    But when I do TFs and gees, enter a mission and it looks like planet of the PPs, gees that is just abusive! Thus my recommendation, is that no group can have more than 2 mobs with the "Moment of Glory" like property.

 

    Only a suggestion, to reduce the "boredom" factor built-in with the PP like mobs

 

Any thoughts? As always, a good opportunity to learn from this is always appreciated

Only 2 seems kind of limited.  Maybe make the number scale by the amount of people in your team so if you're solo or have a single teammate it's only one, if you have a team of 3 to 5 make it 2, team of 6 or 7 can be 3, and a team of 8 or a league can have mobs with as many as 4 MoGs. 

[srmalloy]

20 minutes ago, DrRocket said:

But when I do TFs and gees, enter a mission and it looks like planet of the PPs, gees that is just abusive! Thus my recommendation, is that no group can have more than 2 mobs with the "Moment of Glory" like property.

You haven't run the "Revenant Hero Project" arc from Gordon Stacey in Brickstown much, have you? The second-to-last mission of the arc is, with the exception of a single spawn on the first floor (at least in my experience) entirely populated with Paragon Protectors, minion to boss, all of whom have Moment of Glory or an equivalent power.  I say 'equivalent power' because they're not all the same; the Energy Blast types have the 'classic' unhittable MoG, while the others just become mildly annoying and are not much more difficult to take down than they are before they pop MoG. The mission, though, is the best one to use to get the badge for 200 Paragon Protectors, lest you be stuck trying to street-sweep them.

[lemming]

While I get the frustration, the way to deal with them is to prevent them to do that.

 

It doesn't always work, but knockback, knockdown, holds, etc... when they are near to activation prevents them and while they are otherwise prevented, that's when you hit them with a larger attack defeating them.

 

If they do manage to get it off, then you deal with other stuff in the case of Fake Nemesis, but MoG is just a bit harder to hit. 

[Luminara]

Enemies in the game have powers like Moment of Glory specifically to create variety in enemy groups, to give players more to do than press one key, to bring purpose to archetypes like controllers and dominators, to make *PP status effect powers valuable.  They should not artificially limited any more than they already are, because doing so would promote stagnation.  What's the point of leveling up and getting stronger and better powers if everything is Hellions from 1 to 50?

 

Hold them.  Stun them.  Drain their endurance.  Keep them knocked down or back.  Use a strategy slightly more complex than "press 1".

[Rudra]

To add to the list of ways to deal with MoG'ed PPs, you can pop yellow inspirations to counter their heightened defense. And like @lemming said, if you still can't hit them, you turn your attention to other enemies to fight while you wait out the 45 seconds of MoG they have. (Edit: Unless you're a MM. In which case just keep hitting the PP. Your pets will be raining enough attacks on the PP that they will slowly be landing hits on the PP even through MoG.)

 

Edited October 11 by Rudra

[Riverdusk]

I honestly wouldn't mind the MoG timer be shortened a wee bit, but not too short as it is nice to have mezzes, knockdowns, and endurance drains have a purpose.  Can be a boon to stalkers too and gives strategy to using a well placed assassin strike.

 

I'm against limiting the number per spawn.  Bosses are fairly limited per spawn already and the only time PP in particular come in great numbers is during two missions of the Gordon Stacey arc.  I tend to run that arc once per character specifically to get the badge for them, so I actually want a lot of them to spawn.  During those missions you also get a lot of non-boss versions of PP and those tend to be a lot easier to deal with, even if they do MoG.

 

I think the only time they've done a specific limit to spawn numbers is with sappers.  They are minion level though so it could get a bit crazy with how many could spawn of them, so that one was understandable.

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

I see the same posters make the same suggestions about the game being too hard or wanting to change things to make it easier. I am diametrically opposed to these suggestions both from the standpoint of balance and because it would negatively affect my experience in this game I enjoy.

 

I'm sure the same posters feel the same way about this game, but want change instead. I keep seeing GM Moogly pop in to threads and the take away I get is that there's no one way to play, everyone can enjoy the way they want to play, and make suggestions without being labeled or maligned, etc. I too want this community to remain populated and healthy. I just don't want to stop playing because of the changes others suggest ruin my experience. 

Edited October 12 by Glacier Peak

[Uun]

Only the Paragon Protectors with Energy Melee/Blast have MoG (and it only lasts 45s). Those with Claws have Unstoppable (45s) and those with Spines have Elude (60s). Paragon Protector Elites have a T9 nuke instead of an armor. 

 

[Shin Magmus]

     I'm getting a bit tired of the preponderance of "nerf City of Heroes to make it even easier" threads lately.  To add further to the list of ways to deal with MoG-type powers: these are powers that the enemy uses on themselves.  That means that some of the buffs will be weaker if you hit them with the "negative power boost" effects of Poison's Weaken for example.  You can fight their buffs with debuffs, and obviously -Def and -Res alone are still making a noticeable difference.  You know that one guaranteed MoG on SBB, where one of the AVs will use MoG when near death?  My Poison Defender single-handedly makes it so that the team of 3 players can reliably keep hitting that AV right through their MoG.  There are some pretty good powersets in this game if you take the time to look for them...

 

[lemming]

3 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

PP in particular come in great numbers is during two missions of the Gordon Stacey arc.

Not arguing against your point, but there are a couple during Unai Kemen missions as well.  Good for rounding out that defeat badge.

[Enamel_32]

I think I've said this in another thread here, but my experience is that if you're not equipped to deal with them, it's slow and/or annoying. Not necessarily difficult, just low on the fun meter. If you are equipped to deal with them, the experience becomes much more... tactical? Whether that's having a fast-animating attack or raw DPS to beat them before the power activates, debuffs or control effects you can apply proactively, or psionic damage, it's got potential to be an interesting fight.

 

They always have the same vulnerability to psionic damage. I think it would feel like less of a "progress wall" to some, and maybe even more lore-accurate, if these "recycled parts" paragon protectors each had different damage type weaknesses.

Edited October 12 by Enamel_32

[Shin Magmus]

     Let me up an important aspect of MMO game design, which isn't actually something a simple as "class diversity", but rather the game's systems letting a player "feel useful to a party/team".  Enemies that can use MoG-type powers are being brought up again because some builds have a harder time with them.  But the other builds that can effortlessly cancel or otherwise neuter MoG, like your Dominator simply Holding the enemy before they can use it, are getting the opportunity to "feel useful".  If you're on a team (playing the multiplayer aspect of MMORPG) then the Support ATs and CC ATs on the team are perfectly entitled to encounter some enemies and mechanics that enable them to "feel useful".  The real issue with all of these threads is that their focus on solo play seeks to make changes to the game that will affect multiplayer play.  OP says they're bored when an enemy uses MoG and then they have to wait.  That means that the Support AT that can counter MoG will remove boredom from the game if invited to the team: the Support gets to make the game faster and more exciting for OP; That's good game design.  If the game is nerfed and made easier, so that every build can solo every enemy easily, then it will be difficult or categorically impossible for people to feel as useful to their teammates.  When everyone is super... no one will be.

Edited October 13 by Shin Magmus

[RikOz]

17 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

The real issue with all of these threads is that their focus on solo play seeks to make changes to the game that will affect multiplayer play.

As an entirely solo player, I agree with this. I do get a bit frustrated, though, with advice that says, "use thus and such an ability on them", because not every AT/build has that ability. My favorite example is complaining about sappers, and getting the inevitable advice to "use electric armor!" I'm like, "yes, I know electric armor is effective for defending against sappers, but the character I'm currently playing does not have electric armor".

 

But that's the challenge: figuring out how to counter various mobs/abilities with the AT/build I'm currently playing. And sometimes it means accepting the limitations of a particular power set and understanding that you're just not suited to certain situations. There's one hero alignment mission I avoid if I'm playing a particularly endurance-hungry character, like dark melee/dark armor. (The one where you have to rescue a Longbow agent from Arachnos. A mission consisting of ambush after ambush after ambush is futile when fighting a single spawn consumes more than 50% of your endurance, and you can't take time to rest and recover because the next ambush is coming immediately.)

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, RikOz said:

There's one hero alignment mission I avoid if I'm playing a particularly endurance-hungry character, like dark melee/dark armor. (The one where you have to rescue a Longbow agent from Arachnos. A mission consisting of ambush after ambush after ambush is futile when fighting a single spawn consumes more than 50% of your endurance, and you can't take time to rest and recover because the next ambush is coming immediately.)

If you play with bosses on and small team size, she can destroy the Arachnos ambushes by herself for the most part.