Question for the HC folk - Do Giant Monsters cause lag?

[ZacKing]

12 hours ago, brass_eagle said:

Just a thought, there is a "LAG" toggle macro that has been circulating around Excelsior--

 

/macro_image "originicon_natural" "LAG Toggle" "++noparticles"

 

I do not know who created it or I would give credit. You can click it to turn particles off and on. If this works for folks complaining then with would suggest the density of players and their power effects are to blame. Bring back naked Hami raids!

 

More anecdotally on topic, I've been on leagues that have had more than 10 Kronos spawn in Talos (sequentially) and any lag mostly occurs when the players congregate. Especially stormies! (no hate). Nothing major except stuttering when 24 players are blasting away.

 

Disclaimer: just my experience. There may be something a dum dum like me doesn't know.

 

Thank you for posting this.  Yes, quite a few people share this slash command each week and I believe it does help somewhat.

[Oubliette_Red]

 

14 hours ago, ZacKing said:

On 10/15/2024 at 6:42 PM, brass_eagle said:

Just a thought, there is a "LAG" toggle macro that has been circulating around Excelsior--

 

/macro_image "originicon_natural" "LAG Toggle" "++noparticles"

 

I do not know who created it or I would give credit. You can click it to turn particles off and on. If this works for folks complaining then with would suggest the density of players and their power effects are to blame. Bring back naked Hami raids!

 

More anecdotally on topic, I've been on leagues that have had more than 10 Kronos spawn in Talos (sequentially) and any lag mostly occurs when the players congregate. Especially stormies! (no hate). Nothing major except stuttering when 24 players are blasting away.

 

Disclaimer: just my experience. There may be something a dum dum like me doesn't know.

 

Thank you for posting this.  Yes, quite a few people share this slash command each week and I believe it does help somewhat.

 

For those that are reaching maximum density on trays with powers slotted, you can also just type /noparticles 1 or 0 to toggle it on/off.

[Logansan]

I confused. I was there at the last event and did notice the disagreements in chat.

 

However, I don't remember anything been said about Kronos been a huge problem because it was causing all the lag. From what I understand the talk was about if Kronos causes the other GMs (Baggage) to wander more then they normally do, or not. The OP does mention this side of the discussion, but rest of the thread seems to be only fixated on the possible Lag issue.

I didn't just sit and listen to every single chat message so I may missed a fair bit of it. But for me the real issue was that someone organised a event and others decided to go against what they ask people to do (or not do). Then someone (I have no idea if it was the same person or not) wouldn't stop complaining about it and appeared to basically be trying to stir up trouble.

Edited October 17 by Logansan

[ZacKing]

3 hours ago, Logansan said:

From what I understand the talk was about if Kronos causes the other GMs (Baggage) to wander more then they normally do, or not. The OP does mention this side of the discussion, but rest of the thread seems to be only fixated on the possible Lag issue.

 

The question of whether or not the Kronos causes Babbages to run does come up.  Were that true, Babbages wouldn't be running off and scattering when there's no Kronos Titan at all.  We've all seen Babbages running off and see the calls in broadcast for "runners" going in all directions each week.  This happens whether there's a Kronos there or not, and anyone who says otherwise is being dishonest.  So that claim is debunked if you ask me based on repeatably demonstrated evidence we've all seen many times.  Same as with the lag, the supposed evidence for the claim that the Kronos causes Babbages to scatter is no more than heresay that amounts to "my friend told me they heard from someone who remembers hearing from someone who heard it from a Dev" or something like that.  There's never any hard proof of it, and again, Babbages wander whether there's a Kronos or not.  Whether the Kronos causing Babbbage to run is maybe something  @Number Six or @GM_GooglyMoogly can shed some light on.

 

3 hours ago, Logansan said:

But for me the real issue was that someone organised a event and others decided to go against what they ask people to do (or not do). Then someone (I have no idea if it was the same person or not) wouldn't stop complaining about it and appeared to basically be trying to stir up trouble.

 

That I can understand and empathize with, however we can't control what others do.  I'd also add that people bringing a Kronos Titan from time to time aren't breaking any game rules.  They're not doing anything different than the people participating in the SNS are.  I could be wrong, so take this for what its worth, but maybe this feeling you're talking about is in part due to a sense of entitlement surrounding the event along the lines of what @tidge had mentioned.  People need to understand that they don't own the game or the server, so they're going to have to deal with others.  I also think its wrong to assume others are bringing Kronos Titans to the mix to "stir up trouble". 

 

With that said, there was one person there last week definitely trying to stir up trouble.  They were upset that they couldn't fill a Synapse TF and had blamed the SNS league for that, even going to the extreme and using extremely foul and offensive and abusive language in broadcast.    I'm sure whoever that was got reported into oblivion lol.

[tidge]

5 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

That I can understand and empathize with, however we can't control what others do.  I'd also add that people bringing a Kronos Titan from time to time aren't breaking any game rules.  They're not doing anything different than the people participating in the SNS are. 

 

The complete absurdity of being upset that "someone brought a Kronos Titan", as far as I am concerned, is that had that player/team brought another Babbage the complainers likely would have squealed with delight.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

28 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Whether the Kronos causing Babbbage to run is maybe something  @Number Six or @GM_GooglyMoogly can shed some light on.

 

A) I am not a trained monkey to be summoned to answer daily questions.  😛

B) With my standard not-a-dev disclaimer, it's close to impossible to determine why any particular critter does something after the fact.  There are aggro mechanics at play, which include not just taunt but damage and debuffing too.  There's also "Afraid" effects that make critters run, like caltrops.  Then I think there is also a "frustration" effect, which may be separate or may be part of the other two (I don't know), but critters will run if they take a lot of damage and can't do damage back.  High defense characters can probably attest to that.  It also seems to me anecdotally that DoT damage seems to cause runners more, but that may just be an issue of timing.  One big alpha strike and there is no time to decide to run.  Lots of smaller strikes gives the critter time to calculate if running is warranted.

 

So could Kronos have caused a particular Babbage to run?  Sure, it's possible.  Did this particular Kronos make that particular Babbage run away from a scrum of Babbages fighting a league?  We may never know.

[Snarky]

58 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 

A) I am not a trained monkey to be summoned to answer daily questions.  😛

 

So could Kronos have caused a particular Babbage to run?  Sure, it's possible.  Did this particular Kronos make that particular Babbage run away from a scrum of Babbages fighting a league?  We may never know.

so when will you have the info then?

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

A) I am not a trained monkey to be summoned to answer daily questions.  😛

I didn't suggest you were.  Apologies if that's what you're thinking.  It certainly wasn't the intent.  Regardless, thank you so much for your replies and for helping to shed some light on the topic.  It's greatly appreciated, so thank you.

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

The complete absurdity of being upset that "someone brought a Kronos Titan", as far as I am concerned, is that had that player/team brought another Babbage the complainers likely would have squealed with delight.

 

I don't disagree at all.  The whole thing is just silly and it's a shame it's leading to such bad behavior from some. 

[lemming]

1 hour ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

I am not a trained monkey to be summoned to answer daily questions.  😛

When's the training happening?  

 

<rimshot>

[JasperStone]

2 minutes ago, lemming said:

When's the training happening?  

 

<rimshot>

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

31 minutes ago, Snarky said:

so when will you have the info then?

 

Calculating: where a=the lifetime of Snarky - the time he will spend waiting:

 

[Excraft]

3 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

A) I am not a trained monkey to be summoned to answer daily questions.  😛

 

This sounds like a great idea for a new prestige pet - The GooglyMoogly monkey!  😁🤣

 

3 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

B) With my standard not-a-dev disclaimer, it's close to impossible to determine why any particular critter does something after the fact.  There are aggro mechanics at play, which include not just taunt but damage and debuffing too.  There's also "Afraid" effects that make critters run, like caltrops.  Then I think there is also a "frustration" effect, which may be separate or may be part of the other two (I don't know), but critters will run if they take a lot of damage and can't do damage back.  High defense characters can probably attest to that.  It also seems to me anecdotally that DoT damage seems to cause runners more, but that may just be an issue of timing.  One big alpha strike and there is no time to decide to run.  Lots of smaller strikes gives the critter time to calculate if running is warranted.

 

Thank you for this.  This is a very reasonable summation of what is most likely causing the problem of the occasional Babbage running off.  People seem to forget that aggro management can be tricky, especially when you have players shooting all of the sprockets being spawned by the Babbages.  That's increasing the number of targets for the taunters to maintain control of.  Players using nukes or judgement to kill sprockets are hitting Babbages too.  Not to mention the overzealous players shooting Babbages or applying debuffs while waiting for the official go signal, and/or MM pets set to Defensive that are way too close to the gathering area.

 

4 hours ago, tidge said:

The complete absurdity of being upset that "someone brought a Kronos Titan", as far as I am concerned, is that had that player/team brought another Babbage the complainers likely would have squealed with delight.

 

I think you're absolutely right. 

 

8 hours ago, Logansan said:

I didn't just sit and listen to every single chat message so I may missed a fair bit of it. But for me the real issue was that someone organised a event and others decided to go against what they ask people to do (or not do). Then someone (I have no idea if it was the same person or not) wouldn't stop complaining about it and appeared to basically be trying to stir up trouble.

 

I'd like to ask, what exactly is the harm in bringing another monster to the mix?  @tidge brings up a very good point.  What's the difference between other players bringing another added Babbage or a Kronos Titan?  Why are you assuming those people bringing Kronos Titans are there to "stir up trouble"? 

 

The only people complaining about the Kronos were the people who seem to believe it's the root cause of all of the problems like lag and scattering.  It's clear that it isn't.  And anyone who dared suggest otherwise in broadcast or league/team chat were belittled for their opinion.  I know this for a certainty because my daughter received some very rude and nasty tells simply because she  said in broadcast the Kronos doesn't cause the problems.  I saw league chat where global names were being shared and people directed to put those people on global ignore because they said the Kronos is not an issue. 

 

Last week in specific, there was one complete ahole there shouting obscenities in broadcast, but that had nothing to do with the Kronos discussion. 

[tidge]

Disclaimer: I was not present for the Torchbearer SNS in question.

 

38 minutes ago, Excraft said:

The only people complaining about the Kronos were the people who seem to believe it's the root cause of all of the problems like lag and scattering.  It's clear that it isn't.  And anyone who dared suggest otherwise in broadcast or league/team chat were belittled for their opinion.  I know this for a certainty because my daughter received some very rude and nasty tells simply because she  said in broadcast the Kronos doesn't cause the problems.  I saw league chat where global names were being shared and people directed to put those people on global ignore because they said the Kronos is not an issue.

 

Perhaps some (uninformed?) players may have been under the impression that something about the Kronos Titan was causing an issue, maybe because of the specific attacks?

 

There are (precious few) enemy mobiles that can attack and damage each other. AFAIK Babbages/Clockwork and Kronos/Malta are not among them. Other players may be working from a different premise, thinking the Kronos was kill-stealing/scaring the Babbages?

 

There could have been an undercurrent of "Stop (whatever) and listen to Kali!" that got translated (internally, to some players) that "Anybody being public with [Broadcast] advice that runs counter to what the league wants is wrong, and deserves shunning"... there are some folks that aren't real good about filtering, and it is possible that some folks turned their own (inward-directed?) annoyance and waiting around for the "Go Go Go" signal that they turned those bad feelings outward. If I hang out in Skyway before 8pm Eastern, it isn't uncommon to see folks being a little snippy before the leagues are even forming. I want to believe this is all in fun, but it is IMO silly to ask "Has SNS started?" when it is (a) 7:30pm Eastern and (b) it is trivial to see that the Hive is still full because of an ongoing Hamidon raid.

 

It doesn't take much to get some folks to brigade. Hopefully the folks who took the sour approach will self-select themselves away from fun times.

[Excraft]

I wouldn't even begin to know what their motivation is for behaving the way they do.  All I know is, there are players out there who are very rude simply for no reason other than others having the audacity to disagree that the Kronos is an issue.  Were I to take a wild guess, I'd say they're behaving that way because their friend or someone they like told them the Kronos is a problem (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) and they just believe it because reasons and the person is their friend, so they just go with whatever they say.  I think you're right - "misinformed" is a good descriptor.

 

But whatever, people can believe what they want and that's ok.  It's like @ZacKing said above, the people bringing the Kronos Titans aren't breaking any game rules, so let the people who don't like it continue to complain.  Those who don't mind are going to continue to enjoy the additional monster fight(s).

 

Come to think of think of it about breaking rules - some of the regulars on the main league might be breaking the multiboxing rule when they're firing up alt accounts and bringing their added Babbages during an event that's putting a lot of stress on the map and/or server. 

[tidge]

3 hours ago, Excraft said:

Come to think of think of it about breaking rules - some of the regulars on the main league might be breaking the multiboxing rule when they're firing up alt accounts and bringing their added Babbages during an event that's putting a lot of stress on the map and/or server. 

 

There are no hard-and-fast rules about multi-boxing in the open world, except for the usual rules based on server load.

 

I do think that if any of the powers-that-be were to look at the rationale(s) for restricting multiboxing for reasons other than server load, they'd realize that multi-boxing Giant Monster murder is not very far down a slippery slope. Personally I fear that TPTB are going to end up restricting Giant Monster rewards on a timer, which would probably drive more players to multi-box giant monsters, because of the 2x or 3x the (hypothetically) time-limited rewards.

[Kalikamata]

I get vitriol from both sides. I have asked politely and respectfully for people not to bring Kronos. Ever since the GM change, Kronos slows my computer down. Shutting off particles does very little to help. His AOEs slow me to a crawl. I would not squeal with delight at another Babbage. We all have different definitions of fun.

 

edit for clarification... This lag happens BEFORE the leagues start attacking. It seems to come from the Kronos attacks.

 

So I'm wrong. You're right. *Sigh* Perhaps it's time to retire the event that took me years to build.

Edited October 18 by Kalikamata
clarification

[Zombie Fryer]

So here's a question - if a player is running an event in an open zone, do other players have the right to interfere in that event?

 

Example: during Hamidon raids (even though the Hive does have a player limit cap), is it considered griefing if someone constantly uses Dimension Shift on Hami?  Or if someone aggros monsters to the safe rock?  Or intentionally tries to spawn Hami before the league is ready?

 

Example: Zone MSR.  A group of players decide to start taking down pylons before the league is ready. 

 

Example: Someone is hosting a costume contest and players intentionally drag mobs to interfere.

 

Overall, I like to think our community is respectful and that just because you -can- do something doesn't mean you -should-.

 

If an event organizer is politely requesting you don't do something, maybe be an adult and respect their wishes.  Not doing so is just childish and unfair to the people who invest their time.  If you really want those 6 additional merits, bring a Babbage.  Or if you need help with Kronos for the badge, wait until all the teams are in their last mission and I promise you folks from Overflow will be happy to help.

 

Whether if the lag or fleeing issues are related to Kronos is kind of irrelevant.  The event organizer asked you not to bring one to their event.

 

It's all be respecting each other.

 

I'm grateful to the folks that organize events for the rest us to enjoy.  It takes a lot of time, effort and a thick skin to be able to do so with many different personalities out there.  If an organizer asks you not to do something, which in this case at the end of the day literally requires 0 effort, maybe don't do it?

 

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, Kalikamata said:

I get vitriol from both sides. I have asked politely and respectfully for people not to bring Kronos. Ever since the GM change, Kronos slows my computer down. Shutting off particles does very little to help. His AOEs slow me to a crawl. I would not squeal with delight at another Babbage. We all have different definitions of fun.

 

edit for clarification... This lag happens BEFORE the leagues start attacking. It seems to come from the Kronos attacks.

 

So I'm wrong. You're right. *Sigh* Perhaps it's time to retire the event that took me years to build.

 

I'm sorry to hear that you're getting vitriol.  Thank you for clarifying what the issue is for you.  This sounds like a possible driver or hardware issue with your graphics card?  It seems a bit strange that it's ONLY the Kronos Titan AOEs causing issues for you and nothing else.  This thread has covered a lot of technical reasons what causes lag and why lag is a cumulative problem.  Is there a way to test this for you outside of SNS event?  Like spawning a single Kronos for you somewhere and seeing if it impacts you or not?  I'd be happy to help if I can.

 

I certainly hope you don't retire the SNS event.

[DarkRevelation]

On 10/13/2024 at 10:49 AM, ZacKing said:

Lastly, I'd like to give a huge shout out and big thank you to @Kalikamatafor graciously hosting this very fun event every week.  Your efforts don't go unnoticed and are appreciated by a whole lot of us.  Thank you.

 

 

She is the one who politely asked that Kronos not be brought to the event that she started, runs and maintains every Saturday. This is certainly an odd way to show your appreciation for her efforts. 

[DarkRevelation]

8 hours ago, Excraft said:

But whatever, people can believe what they want and that's ok.  It's like @ZacKing said above, the people bringing the Kronos Titans aren't breaking any game rules, so let the people who don't like it continue to complain.  Those who don't mind are going to continue to enjoy the additional monster fight(s).

 

 

6 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

I'm sorry to hear that you're getting vitriol.  Thank you for clarifying what the issue is for you.  This sounds like a possible driver or hardware issue with your graphics card?  It seems a bit strange that it's ONLY the Kronos Titan AOEs causing issues for you and nothing else.  This thread has covered a lot of technical reasons what causes lag and why lag is a cumulative problem.  Is there a way to test this for you outside of SNS event?  Like spawning a single Kronos for you somewhere and seeing if it impacts you or not?  I'd be happy to help if I can.

 

I certainly hope you don't retire the SNS event.

 

 

Whatever the issue is, she asked for it to stop, period. Please respect what she has asked for. 

[DarkRevelation]

8 hours ago, Excraft said:

ICome to think of think of it about breaking rules - some of the regulars on the main league might be breaking the multiboxing rule when they're firing up alt accounts and bringing their added Babbages during an event that's putting a lot of stress on the map and/or server. 

 

I'll leave this here for you.

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/code-of-conduct/#multiboxing-policy

 

Multiboxing Policy

We allow a basic level of multiboxing on the Homecoming servers outside of peak times. These rules apply on a shard-by-shard basis (by ‘shard’ we mean Torchbearer, Excelsior, etc).

• If the status indicator for a shard is green (1 dot) or yellow (2 dots), you may play with up to three accounts at once.
• If the status indicator for a shard is red (3 dots, 1,100+ players) you may only play with a single account.
• If you are caught multiboxing repeatedly while a shard is red (1,100+ players players logged in), all of action will be taken against your account including being disconnected from the game or temorarily or permanently banned.

It is your responsibility to monitor server status and current player count if you wish to multibox. You can do this both on our website and in the #live-shards channel on our Discord.

An exception to this rule is raid zones (The Hive, The Abyss, the Labyrinth of Fog, etc.) which have a limited population cap. Multiboxing is not allowed in these zones. Breaking this rule may result in all of your characters being removed from the zone and short-term suspensions being issued for repeat offenders.

Finally, Game Masters may request that you stop multiboxing during events such as the Halloween and Winter events to reduce server load or decongest populated areas.

Please note that this policy does not apply to groups of players simply playing from the same home/network. It only applies to individuals playing multiple accounts on their own.

 

[Excraft]

34 minutes ago, Zombie Fryer said:

So here's a question - if a player is running an event in an open zone, do other players have the right to interfere in that event?

 

How is someone bringing a Kronos Titan or another Babbage to the SNS outside of the main league "interfering"?  If they bring more Babbages instead - which absolutely will add to the lag for everyone - how is that any different?

 

35 minutes ago, Zombie Fryer said:

Example: during Hamidon raids (even though the Hive does have a player limit cap), is it considered griefing if someone constantly uses Dimension Shift on Hami?  Or if someone aggros monsters to the safe rock?  Or intentionally tries to spawn Hami before the league is ready?

 

Example: Zone MSR.  A group of players decide to start taking down pylons before the league is ready. 

 

Example: Someone is hosting a costume contest and players intentionally drag mobs to interfere.

 

Outside of someone intentionally griefing others by pulling GMs to the safe rock in the Hive, I don't think anything else you've mentioned here is breaking any game rules.  A GM could clarify for certain whether or not it is.  Taking down pylons early in a zone MSR can be looked at as beneficial since its saving the league a bit of time and effort.  There are instanced MSRs now and players can hold costume contests in Kalisti Wharf or Echo Plaza or their SG base where there are no mobs around. 

 

43 minutes ago, Zombie Fryer said:

If an event organizer is politely requesting you don't do something, maybe be an adult and respect their wishes.  Not doing so is just childish and unfair to the people who invest their time.  If you really want those 6 additional merits, bring a Babbage.  Or if you need help with Kronos for the badge, wait until all the teams are in their last mission and I promise you folks from Overflow will be happy to help.

 

I can understand what your saying here and I don't necessarily disagree with you.  I will say that those people who are taking the time to run the Crimson arc to bring a Kronos are investing their free time as well.  They are taking the time and making the effort to bring the Kronos across the entire map to the gathering area for everyone to fight.  I'll also add that sending out truly offensive and rude tells to people who have said the Kronos isn't a problem for them and demanding others in the league berate them and globally ignore those people is just as, if not more, childish behavior.   Lastly on this, it seems incredibly strange to me how selective the Kronos problem is depending on who is bringing it.  Fusion Force spawned 2 (or maybe 3) Kronos Titans during the SNS as part of their 20th anniversary event.  They were glowingly praised and thanked in broadcast for it.   Why are some people getting a pass and others aren't?  I don't know you personally, but this seems to me like the sense of entitlement @tidge mentioned.  It's ok if people you like do something, but it's wrong and griefing if its anyone else. 

 

54 minutes ago, Zombie Fryer said:

I'm grateful to the folks that organize events for the rest us to enjoy

 

Same here.

[Excraft]

20 minutes ago, DarkRevelation said:

She is the one who politely asked that Kronos not be brought to the event that she started, runs and maintains every Saturday. This is certainly an odd way to show your appreciation for her efforts. 

 

You're assuming everyone knows this or knows why this was even requested.  I assure you, not everyone knew what the issue was. 

[DarkRevelation]

2 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

You're assuming everyone knows this or knows why this was even requested.  I assure you, not everyone knew what the issue was. 

 

I'll repeat this: 

Whatever the issue is, she asked for it to stop, period. Please respect what she has asked for.