Why a Brute?

[Neiska]

8 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

No.  I am saying that Brutes are fine because they don't suck at all.  Most well built brutes can solo 85-95% of the game at +4/x8.  Badly built brutes can solo most of the game at /x8.

I wasn’t going to say anything, because I know the numbers don’t support it, but my savage/bio brute actually solos more content better than most of my tankers. Only my Fire/Bio tanker can melt things as fast. But the rest? The brute is almost always faster. And it’s not a case of inf invested, or incarnates, as they are all in the same ballpark. 
 

I really can’t explain the hows or whys. Just out of all my brutes and tankers, those two do the best and they are very close. I know math would say otherwise and I can’t really explain it. It’s just how it is?

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

  I am saying that Brutes are fine because they don't suck at all.  Most well built brutes can solo 85-95% of the game at +4/x8.  Badly built brutes can solo most of the game at /x8.

 

Then you think Brutes never needed to be nerfed in the first place because what you claim of Brutes now was true of Scrappers then? They were at the time soloing +4×8 content.

 

7 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Please add me to your list.

 

Establish your position as nonsensical and doubtlessly I will.

 

And it's not like you don't have access to the ignore feature.

[Maelwys]

7 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

No.  I am saying that Brutes are fine because they don't suck at all.  Most well built brutes can solo 85-95% of the game at +4/x8.  Badly built brutes can solo most of the game at /x8. 

Whilst replying to this thread I've been repeatedly throwing my RadMelee/StoneArmor Brute into America's Angel AFK Fire Farm map. Last night I was actively running that same toon through the DA arcs solo. All of that's been at +4/x8 and most of it was before they had a single Incarnate slot at T4 (I refuse to use Empy Merits for anything other than buying Rares + Very Rares; and there are currently still about 40 more threads to go before their last T3 slot - Judgement - gets T4'd).

They can survive and solo that sort of content all day. So by that metric this toon is indeed "fine" and they "don't suck at all".

Doesn't change the fact that I could make a Tanker that does it faster and with much less survivability investment though. 

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Neiska said:

I wasn’t going to say anything, because I know the numbers don’t support it, but my savage/bio brute actually solos more content better than most of my tankers. Only my Fire/Bio tanker can melt things as fast. But the rest? The brute is almost always faster. And it’s not a case of inf invested, or incarnates, as they are all in the same ballpark. 
 

I really can’t explain the hows or whys. Just out of all my brutes and tankers, those two do the best and they are very close. I know math would say otherwise and I can’t really explain it. It’s just how it is?

 

 The numbers are not theoretical but the results of testing and reported clear times, not just theory. Moreover nobody is ttruly asserting no single Brute build ever outperforms a Tanker build. 

 

In your case, without seeing your builds and how you play them, nothing can be said against what you have reported. And as indicated more than once in the thread, certain mechanics favor Brutes. Quite a few suggestion are listed at the beginning of the thread and Savage was repeatedly mentioned.

 

But one powerset favoring Brutes is not the hallmark of the AT as a whole.

[Bionic_Flea]

9 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Then you think Brutes never needed to be nerfed in the first place because what you claim of Brutes now was true of Scrappers then? They were at the time soloing +4×8 content.

There you go again.  Just read my words.  No need for fancy interpretation.

 

Can your brutes solo most of the game at +4/x8?  I can help you if you can't.

[Neiska]

Did just have a random thought. 
 

Is it possible that we (rhetorical here, no one specifically speaking) are putting too much value on the “increased aoe” targets here? 
 

I mean, let’s say both a tanker and a brute engage 2 spawns of 8 enemies each, or 16 targets in total. 
 

Tanker can damage all of them. Brute can damage all but 4. Tanker wins right?

 

But the thing is, is the enemies don’t all die at the same time, or even the same rate. You have normals, lieutenants, bosses, elite bosses, etc.

 

But for both, tanker and brute alike, the whites/normals will die quickly, in a few attacks a matter of fact. Which means the tankers AOE capabilities only matters for those first few attacks, after that they have the same amount of enemies engaged, and if the brute has better aoe damage (bigger numbers, not more targets) couldn’t they pull ahead?

 

More of a rhetorical question, one more for the big brains than mine. I was just musing on how my brute can beat most of my tankers, even though math and conventional wisdom would say otherwise.

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

There you go again.  Just read my words.  No need for fancy interpretation.

 

Can your brutes solo most of the game at +4/x8?  I can help you if you can't.

 

Only help I need is in seeing how consistent your position is.

[Maelwys]

6 minutes ago, Neiska said:

I wasn’t going to say anything, because I know the numbers don’t support it, but my savage/bio brute actually solos more content better than most of my tankers. Only my Fire/Bio tanker can melt things as fast. But the rest? The brute is almost always faster. And it’s not a case of inf invested, or incarnates, as they are all in the same ballpark. 
 

I really can’t explain the hows or whys. Just out of all my brutes and tankers, those two do the best and they are very close. I know math would say otherwise and I can’t really explain it. It’s just how it is?

First up, it's been a while since anyone in the thread threw out the old tired-but-true cliche of "This game is so easy that everything works so just play whatever you have fun with". So consider it re-stated and highlighted in size 500 Bold Neon blinking letters.

With that out of the way - Savage Melee is a monster; and Bio's auras will magnify kill speed regardless of whatever you ruin it on. I suspect if you directly compare a Savage/Bio Brute to a Bio/Savage Tanker with the same pool power choices (one build having Combat Teleport and the other not could easily swing things after all!) in a map with enough foes around you for the increased target cap to matter; then the Tanker would win. But observed differences could also be down to playstyle or even how playing the toon makes you feel and react- as Fury decay on a Brute pretty much necessitates "CHARGE!" full-time; whereas on a Tanker there's nothing to stop you taking the time to smell the roses occasionally.

I enjoy playing all the Melee ATs, Brutes included - and at the moment I'd probably rate my new RadM/Stone Brute a bit higher than my BattleAxe/FA Brute. Both those secondaries were intentionally chosen to play to Brute strengths (e.g. Burn and Brimstone). But whenever I join a team on one of those toons I still feel as if I'm bringing less to the party than if I was on a similarly-specced Tanker. And unfortunately I know the numbers back that up; no matter how much I try to stack the deck in their favour...

[Erratic1]

10 minutes ago, Neiska said:

But for both, tanker and brute alike, the whites/normals will die quickly, in a few attacks a matter of fact. Which means the tankers AOE capabilities only matters for those first few attacks, after that they have the same amount of enemies engaged, and if the brute has better aoe damage (bigger numbers, not more targets) couldn’t they pull ahead?

 

More of a rhetorical question, one more for the big brains than mine. I was just musing on how my brute can beat most of my tankers, even though math and conventional wisdom would say otherwise.

 

If the Brute has to spend time recovering from the greater incoming damage the Tanker does not, the Tanker pulls ahead when considering performance over time.

[Maelwys]

6 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 let’s say both a tanker and a brute engage 2 spawns of 8 enemies each, or 16 targets in total. 
 

...

 

But for both, tanker and brute alike, the whites/normals will die quickly, in a few attacks a matter of fact. Which means the tankers AOE capabilities only matters for those first few attacks, after that they have the same amount of enemies engaged, and if the brute has better aoe damage (bigger numbers, not more targets) couldn’t they pull ahead?

This is 100% true - Tankers only win as long as their AoEs are saturated.

They have wider cones and bigger radiuses, which means it's easier to catch more mobs than a Brute - but if you're consistently hitting the same low (e.g. not >10) number of targets on both then the Brute will pull ahead; no question. So if your playstyle means that you're not dragging the stragglers with you into the NEXT mob (e.g. unsuppressed movement via Combat Jumping or Combat Teleport or Sprint or whatever) then Brutes and/or Scrappers will be better off.

Players don't always have to plonk every single AT solo into one of those big mad triple-boxing-MM AE farm maps (just us crazy ones... 🤪 )

That said, IIRC the Trapdoor test was intended to give a fair representation of a mission that contained a decent range of targets - both clumped AND spread out. It wasn't perfect and AFAIK it's since been replaced by different AE missions; but Brutes still trailed noticeably.

[Maelwys]

4 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

If the Brute has to spend time recovering from the greater incoming damage the Tanker does not, the Tanker pulls ahead when considering performance over time.

This.

Also Brutes have to make build concessions that Tankers do not in order to hit major damage mitigation thresholds; for example.
I had to make a conscious decision on my aforementioned /Stone Brute to slot fewer damage procs in order to hardcap their Fire Resistance and Fire defense.
Whereas a Tanker would be procbombed to the gills...

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

I am not sure how one can claim the suckiness of the Brute procs is made up for by getting 9 more hp at level 50 than a Stalker, or at least do so seriously.

 

I am not sure how one can claim the suckiness of Brutes is demonstrated by taking on average 7 seconds longer than Scrappers' or Tankers' (average 5 min 10 sec, for similar attack sets) time to complete (a 2023 version of) Trapdoor, pre nuCouncil.

[Maelwys]

Firey Melee's Trapdoor Performance from that link is a decent poster child for the argument.

 

It's a power set with lots of DoTs, so you'd rightly expect it to benefit a fair bit from Brute Fury. And its main AoE (Fire Sword Circle) also benefits from both the target cap and radius buffs of Tanker Gauntlet.

 

The result? It's Trapdoor times are 4:25 on Tanker, 5:04 on Brute. That's a difference of 39 Seconds, or 14.7% longer on the Brute.

[tidge]

I smell what your cooking, but that's more a prima facie argument about a the relative performance of specific set, and less about comparing the different ATs.

 

The reported Pylon times for Fiery Melee for a Brute is 1m 40sec, for a Tanker 2m 8 sec. That is a difference of 28 seconds or 28% longer for a Tanker. (Done without a calculator!)

[Neiska]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

If the Brute has to spend time recovering from the greater incoming damage the Tanker does not, the Tanker pulls ahead when considering performance over time.

Normally I would agree, but in both examples they were Bio armor, damage recovery is kind of its speciality. So bad example on my part I guess? Didn’t really pick those out of the hat, they just happened to be my respective best brute and tankers to compare.

 

But do agree that time spent on the defense/recovering also matters. As I said before, more a situation for the big brains to calculate. All I know is that despite the math, my best brute beats some of my tankers. But that is still kind of apples to oranges, and if you include recovery, and how fast things die and so on, that’s not just apples to oranges, but apples to oranges to pineapples too!

[Gobbledigook]

3 hours ago, Octogoat said:

Sounds like what would appease one party and be fine with the other is just to tweak the ATOs a bit to be more useful.

Yes, hopefully then we can have less bickering.

[Erratic1]

45 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Normally I would agree, but in both examples they were Bio armor, damage recovery is kind of its speciality. So bad example on my part I guess? Didn’t really pick those out of the hat, they just happened to be my respective best brute and tankers to compare.

 

The base defense/resistance values for a Tanker are higher than for a Brute. As example, a Tanker gets 15% Defense to Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative from Environmental Modification compared to 11.25% for a Brute using the same power. For equal shooting the resulting values will be higher on the Tanker. Bio Armor is like every other armor set in this regard.

 

This holds true for Power Pool powers too--Tanker values are higher. Tough for a Tanker gives 15% Smash/Lethal resistance, for a Brute it gives 11.25%

 

For equal power/slotting investment a Brute will be at two-thirds the values of a Tanker. When a Tanker is at 90% mitigation the Brute is at 60%. Where a Tanker would take 200 points of damage in a period of time at 90% resistance a Brute at 60% would take 800. Where a Tanker at 45% defense would average 200 points of damage a Brute would average 800. So the Brute will have to recover sooner.

 

Healing likewise gets boosted for the Tanker, with healing powers healing more. And all this on top of the Tanker having more health.

 

More incoming damage and weaker healing means more time spent healing.

 

Of course the Brute can invest more in his armors, but slots are not infinite. And IO set bonuses spent to fill the gap are not available for other things as Maelwys pointed out.

 

 

Edited October 16 by Erratic1

[Gobbledigook]

Are we talking solo play Brute vs Tankers in an MMO? are you concerned that a Brute can't solo?

 

On a team Brutes do really well from buffing with their increased health/resistance caps. Far surpassing a Scrapper, almost Tanker level. 

 

 

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

I smell what your cooking, but that's more a prima facie argument about a the relative performance of specific set, and less about comparing the different ATs.

 

The reported Pylon times for Fiery Melee for a Brute is 1m 40sec, for a Tanker 2m 8 sec. That is a difference of 28 seconds or 28% longer for a Tanker. (Done without a calculator!)

I honestly don't have the time or headspace to attempt to provide a comprehensive comparison of all Melee powersets here; so highlighting a few specific relevant examples is the best you're going to get I'm afraid. If you think that constitutes a depthless surface-glance argument then apologies.

That said, I was trying to highlight that when we look at a powerset which benefits highly from BOTH Fury and Gauntlet then Tankers pull ahead - even whenever the map in question used for the comparison contains a balance of both Single Target and AoE target opportunities; let alone on a Farming map or ITF with constant AoE target saturation.
Tankers are similarly 21 seconds ahead on SPINES - a set which likewise has both Fury-affecting DoTs and multiple AoEs which benefit from Gauntlet's Target Cap and Radius buffs (plus a damage aura that does NOT benefit at all from Gauntlet: Quills!)... so we can't just dismiss Fiery Melee offhand here as an anomalous data point.

It's also worth noting that the listed Scrapper Pylon times in that same linked thread for Fiery Melee are 1m 16sec - a difference of 24 seconds or 31.6% longer than for a Brute.
So if this specific Brute powerset ranks second best at both ST Pylon times (Scrapper wins!) and AoE+ST Trapdoor times (Tanker wins!) then Brutes are demonstrably never the best AT to use this powerset on. Whilst there is certainly an argument to be made that Brutes being "somewhere in the middle" constitutes them being in a good place balancewise... as mentioned upthread, I really think Brutes need to shine at something; otherwise why invite a Brute to a team over a different AT?

...and as a complete aside: did you notice the listed ST chain used for Firey Melee Brutes and Tankers in the Pylon times?
 Greater Fire Sword > Gloom > Fire Sword > Cross Punch.
Half of those attacks are not Fiery Melee abilities; and IIRC Gloom's recharge time has since been lengthened so I'm not sure it's even a viable chain any more...? 😆
 

Edited October 16 by Maelwys

[tidge]

 

I think it is demonstrated (by the later dive into Scrappers, immediately above) that there is a bit of cursory post hoc rationalization possible, for whatever point a person chooses to make on this relative comparison... and I write this not to make specific accusation about rationalizations, but to point out that the Brute/Scrapper/Tanker times are so close and so short which leads to both peculiar variations AND a situation where "small denominators" won't yield particularly informative results.

 

42 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

...and as a complete aside: did you notice the listed ST chain used for Firey Melee Brutes and Tankers in the Pylon times?
 Greater Fire Sword > Gloom > Fire Sword > Cross Punch.
Half of those attacks are not Fiery Melee abilities; and IIRC Gloom's recharge time has since been lengthened so I'm not sure it's even a viable chain any more...? 😆

 

Ston deserves a lot of credit for the efforts to transparently benchmark something(s). I don't think there is (or was) much value in nit-picking it. I feel that way because those times all look to be so short that the differences are (to my POV) essentially trivial. Also: I don't think this guy (points to self) would reliably be able to maintain the sort of attention necessary to keyboard-punch to sustain that sort of effort, even for a single Trapdoor type mission, or back-to-back Pylons... with-or-without travel times, chatter with friends, whatever. This need for a more-constant sort of engagement with the game via Fury is what I was referring to in my first post in this thread, before I was told using slightly different words to STFU and get out of the forum.

 

IIRC, Ston was trying to come up with a new benchmark to replace Trapdoor, primarily because of the 2024 changes to the Council. (This came up in my search-fu trying to find the source of the histograms shown earlier in the thread). I vaguely recall that the original effort was for Ston to achieve the fastest times while trying to balance the different ATs. I'm not going to deep dive into the results or methodology, but I will look at the data when folks point to it as "proof" of something. Ultimately I think it proves that for certain 2023 content, Scrappers, Brutes and Tankers can yield nearly identical completion times.

[Yomo Kimyata]

6 hours ago, Ukase said:

Granted, I am admittedly obtuse, and frankly, I don't go looking for problems. If I notice one, it's got to be pretty bad. I just don't see why there's this negative attitude regarding the Brute ATOs. 

 

It's purely a power creep issue.  Scrapper ATO procs, used properly, massively increase damage.  Ditto Stalker ATO procs.  Tanker ATO procs, used properly, massively increase survivability (which is frankly hardly needed on the AT) so that replacing survival enhancement slots with damage procs is feasible.  Brute ATO procs are comparatively meh, especially since the Fury mechanic was boosted in HC.  The problem is not that Brute ATOs suck; the problem is that the ATOs of other melee classes are so ridiculously good that Brutes suck *in comparison*.

[Maelwys]

47 minutes ago, tidge said:

IIRC, Ston was trying to come up with a new benchmark to replace Trapdoor, primarily because of the 2024 changes to the Council. 

The current speed clear leaderboards hosted by Koopak are using a particular AE map: "Galaxy Brain's Office Mission Simulator" (Arc ID: 57885, Test Server Arc ID: 23878) which as far as I'm aware is an updated version of this.

Those board times are far from a perfect science - as many of the builds aren't exactly what you'd choose to run with day-to-day; and unfortunately the only Melee AT I see posted on the Office map is a Tanker, with a best time of 4:05 (beaten only by an Infinity Changeling Peacebringer at 3:21 and a VEAT Crab at 3:11).
Pylon times for the listed Melee ATs are missing Tankers, but the rest are coming in at 0:55 (Brute), 0:28 (Scrapper), 0:26 (Stalker) 
 

  

21 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 The problem is not that Brute ATOs suck; the problem is that the ATOs of other melee classes are so ridiculously good that Brutes suck *in comparison*.

This. 

(See the above gap in Pylon times; where the "best Brute" took roughly twice as long to drop it as the "best Scrapper" or the "best Stalker"; despite the fact that the Brute was using a Signature Summon and the others were not!)
 

Edited October 16 by Maelwys

[venetiasilver]

The main draw of the Brute Archetype is its easy to play; much like Tanker.

You can click the 4 Melee AT's, Scrappers aren't a real at without their ATO, Tankers take forever to clear leveling content, and Stalkers suffer the more mobs exist unless your the bonkers Elec/Shield combo.

Then hit Brute, aside from Kinetic Melee (A broken set on all AT's except Stalker) all combos are viable, Dark Melee / Ice? Go. Elec Melee / Radiation? Go
There are some levers you can pull to make some really good, like Radiation's Dots stacking, or the Bleed from Katana being boosted.

When it comes to the data, yes Tankers apply more damage as of their buff in Arcs and Target Caps.
However when it comes to Boss Critters / Elite Bosses you won't get that juicy one shot from Double Rage KO blow.

The main argumentation I have that Brutes need is a bit more clarity in their Damage thresholds.

[Triumphant]

7 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

The main draw of the Brute Archetype is its easy to play; much like Tanker.

You can click the 4 Melee AT's, Scrappers aren't a real at without their ATO, Tankers take forever to clear leveling content, and Stalkers suffer the more mobs exist unless your the bonkers Elec/Shield combo.

Then hit Brute, aside from Kinetic Melee (A broken set on all AT's except Stalker) all combos are viable, Dark Melee / Ice? Go. Elec Melee / Radiation? Go
There are some levers you can pull to make some really good, like Radiation's Dots stacking, or the Bleed from Katana being boosted.

When it comes to the data, yes Tankers apply more damage as of their buff in Arcs and Target Caps.
However when it comes to Boss Critters / Elite Bosses you won't get that juicy one shot from Double Rage KO blow.

The main argumentation I have that Brutes need is a bit more clarity in their Damage thresholds.

 

This is somewhat close to my feelings on the AT.  If you look at all the Melee AT's, they're each better than a Brute in their area of specialty.  But in a generic sense, and especially for a newer player (or just a mediocre player, like myself) they're a very forgiving AT that useful for most types of game play and great to learn on and can fill in for a tanker or a scrapper in a pinch (okay, maybe not so much Stalker, but you can at least slot a stealth IO in your sprint power).  I guess they're a bit like a Sentinel in that sense, though the melee equivalent to the Sentinels ranged equivalent.

 

This is why I have a lot of Brutes and Sentinels in my stable.  They're (relatively speaking) easy to build and play and do well in a wide cross-section of game content.

[venetiasilver]

5 hours ago, Triumphant said:

 

This is somewhat close to my feelings on the AT.  If you look at all the Melee AT's, they're each better than a Brute in their area of specialty.  But in a generic sense, and especially for a newer player (or just a mediocre player, like myself) they're a very forgiving AT that useful for most types of game play and great to learn on and can fill in for a tanker or a scrapper in a pinch (okay, maybe not so much Stalker, but you can at least slot a stealth IO in your sprint power).  I guess they're a bit like a Sentinel in that sense, though the melee equivalent to the Sentinels ranged equivalent.

 

This is why I have a lot of Brutes and Sentinels in my stable.  They're (relatively speaking) easy to build and play and do well in a wide cross-section of game content.

Out of the box Brute is nearly a perfect archetype; From Level 1 to 20 the Archetype's passive always stays relevant, Then by 30 I think you need to make a choice. Damage or Survival. I think the problem people face nowadays is enhancement build metas where it becomes cookie cutter. If you're a Broadsword / Invuln Brute, make some cuts to your defense and pick some creative ways to handle threats.
If you're a Dark Melee / Regen Brute hit them Recharges, Throw some fun disorient procs in Dark Consumption to add to your defense toolkit.
I feel there's generally playing to your powerset strengths and you could eclipse tankers in speed but you gotta play differently than "roflfacerollkeyboard"

I feel there's a lack of Werner Discipline in the Brute Path.