Proc'n Out! but I Gotz Questions

[Hedgefund]

Here's my 1 Acc + 5 proc slotted infrigidate with all 5 procs (the fifth one is Achille's Heel) firing on a test pylon:

 

[shortguy on indom]

• M... IF NOT A BOTHER, CAN YOU PM ME THE PPM OF EACH OF THE 6 PROCS YOU WERE USING... (WOULD SAVE SOME TIME, WORKING UR NUMBERS AS A COMPARISON).
• THIS WAY WILL KNOW IF SOMETHING WEIRD IS ONGOING WHICH THE CURRENT PPM FORMULA ARE NOT SHOWING.
• I COULD BE WRONG, HAS HAPPENED MANY TIMES.
• WANT TO VERIFY UR CHANCES BASED ON THE CURRENT PPM ACCEPTED MATH.

[shortguy on indom]

6 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

Here's my 1 Acc + 5 proc slotted infrigidate with all 5 procs (the fifth one is Achille's Heel) firing on a test pylon:

 

• GREETINGS HEDGE, BEEN SOME TIME.
• WAS THIS THE FIRST APPLICATION OF THE POWER?... OR A FEW ATTACKS IN?
• THE FIRST APP... USUALLY THE PROCS THE MOST.  NOT SURE WHY.

[Maelwys]

8 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

• M... IF NOT A BOTHER, CAN YOU PM ME THE PPM OF EACH OF THE 6 PROCS YOU WERE USING... (WOULD SAVE SOME TIME, WORKING UR NUMBERS AS A COMPARISON).

Slotting is in my OP:

  

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

 

All of those are 3.5PPM except for the Armageddon which is 4.5PPM.
The Interface Slot is a flat 75% chance (not PPM)

Chance of each proc should be capped at 90% due to Ground Zero's extremely long recharge time.
(Note that this power could be ED-capped for recharge rate reduction and still have >90% unclamped 3.5PPM proc chance!)


 

Edited October 24 by Maelwys

[Maelwys]

6 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

• THE FIRST APP... USUALLY THE PROCS THE MOST.  NOT SURE WHY.

AFAIK that's only true for Pseudopet powers (and as mentioned previously it's due to "boosts" like Global Accuracy Set Bonuses and the Kismet IO being copied to the pet, then expiring after a second or two). The new Arsenal powersets in particular are riddled with multiple overlapping pseudopet effects; there was a thread that touched on this a few months back.

[shortguy on indom]

• THIS IS BASED ON YOUR PPMS M... DID NOT INCLUDE THE INCARNATE PROC.  THAT'S ANOTHER STORY.
• HERE ARE WHAT I CALCULATED BASED ON USING THE SAME FORMULAE THAT YOU SCREENSHOTTED.

 

Edited October 24 by shortguy on indom
ADDED WORDS

[Hedgefund]

23 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

• GREETINGS HEDGE, BEEN SOME TIME.
• WAS THIS THE FIRST APPLICATION OF THE POWER?... OR A FEW ATTACKS IN?
• THE FIRST APP... USUALLY THE PROCS THE MOST.  NOT SURE WHY.

The snippet is from my 3rd attack.  The first one had an aesthetic problem with the image.  The second time 4 of the 5 fired so I did another to get all 5.

 

I would certainly be interested in any data supporting the notion that the first application has the highest proc rate (not accounting for pseudopet business).

[shortguy on indom]

3 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

I would certainly be interested in any data supporting the notion that the first application has the highest proc rate (not accounting for pseudopet business).

• NOT SURE, BUT FIRST TIME YOU USE THE POWER... IT PROCS BEST.
• ANOTHER UNKNOWN, JUST BASED ON MY TESTING IS ALL.  SO YMMV.
• MAYBE YALL COULD ATTEST TO THAT?... HAVE NO EMPIRACAL DATA TO SUPPORT THAT.  JUST WHAT I NOTICED.

[shortguy on indom]

• SO, IF IT (PPM CHANCE) FOLLOWS THE ACCEPTED MATH IN THAT SCREENY...
• THAT VARIES A TON WITH WHAT POWER IS.  IE. PBOAOE, ST, TOGGLE, ETC.
• JUST TRYING TO VERIFY IF THESE PPM FORMUALAE A CORRECT.
• IF ANYONE ELSE HAS SOME IN GAME LOGS OR WHATEVER WOULD BE INTERESTED.

[Maelwys]

2 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

• HERE ARE WHAT I CALCULATED BASED ON USING THE SAME FORMULAE THAT YOU SCREENSHOTTED.

 

Yeah, that matches with what I get (Binomial calcs give a 53.1441% chance for all six Procs to fire on a single test)

Therefore (leaving aside the Interface Slot which needlessly complicates things) I'd expect just over half of Ground Zero's targets to be affected by all six procs. 
And given it has a Target Cap of 30? that's not bad... ...at least until you consider that you can increase the average damage contribution from that particular power over time by slotting fewer procs but more regular set IOs that contain Damage% and Recharge%. Everything's a balancing act! 😀

[shortguy on indom]

• SO, JUST FOR AN FYI...
• WHAT WAS SHOWN HERE WAS M's EXAMPLE.
• THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO ALL TYPES OF ATTACKS.
• PLZ KEEP THIS IN MIND.
• DEPENDS ON 'CHANCE TO PROC' AS SHOWN IN THE SCREEMY ABOVE.
• (AN ASIDE TO M:  "THOUGHT ALL THAT BINOMIAL STUFF WAS BS FOR 30+ YRS. WOULDDA YA KNOW. LOL).

[shortguy on indom]

• STILL GOING TO POST MY STUFF.
• MAY BE A BIT, BUT WILL HAPPEN.

[Snarky]

33 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

• STILL GOING TO POST MY STUFF.
• MAY BE A BIT, BUT WILL HAPPEN.

is this a proc thing or is something going on?

 

in all seriousness i hope things are well for you.

[shortguy on indom]

39 minutes ago, Snarky said:

is this a proc thing or is something going on?

 

in all seriousness i hope things are well for you.

• ALL IS WELL, JUST VERIFYING A PROC THING.
• SUGGEST USING THE LARGEST CHANCE TO PROC %.
• ...AS AN ASIDE, SECRET... USE EITHER ONE OR TWO PROCS OR GO WHOLE HOG IN WITH ALL 6.
• CHECK MY CHART NUMBERS ON 6TH ROW.
• THAT'S ALL FOR NOW, UNTIL WE GET MORE DATA.

[shortguy on indom]

• IT IS NOT ALL THE SAME...
• UNTIL TESTING/CHANCE TO HIT/CHANCE TO PROC... TO VERIFY... IN GAME AND MATH...
• PLZ NOTE, MY MATH IS BASED ON WHAT'S CURRENTLY THE BIZ.  SO ACTUAL GAMEPLAY MAY VARY.
• IF YOUHAVE INSIDE INFO WILL CALC THAT, BUT CAN ONLY GO ON WHAT IS AVAILABLE TO ME.  SO YMMV.
• TAKE A LOOK AT THIS.

 

[Snarky]

3 hours ago, Maelwys said:

AFAIK it's affected by the power's listed "Radius" and "Arc".
It definitely doesn't factor in any Global buffs so stuff like Tanker Gauntlet or /Energy Blaster's "Boost Range" won't reduce your chances.
I've not personally tested if adding "Range" enhancements to a power actually matters or not... but I'd not be surprised if it did (like local +recharge% slotting)
 

I am almost certain (but i have old vampire brain) that i was told previously that boost range will not affect cone proc chances.  But it is probably.  But it is a edge case in the grand scheme of the data.  I run a lot of cones and can get significant global +range bonuses and sometimes alpha incarnate +range.  But i may be smooshing two things together in my head

[shortguy on indom]

8 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I am almost certain (but i have old vampire brain) that i was told previously that boost range will not affect cone proc chances.  But it is probably.  But it is a edge case in the grand scheme of the data.  I run a lot of cones and can get significant global +range bonuses and sometimes alpha incarnate +range.  But i may be smooshing two things together in my head

• VCOOL. THIS IS THE STUFF FROM ACTUAL GAME-PLAY THAT NEEDS TO BE VERIFIED.

[brass_eagle]

19 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I am almost certain (but i have old vampire brain) that i was told previously that boost range will not affect cone proc chances.  But it is probably.  But it is a edge case in the grand scheme of the data.  I run a lot of cones and can get significant global +range bonuses and sometimes alpha incarnate +range.  But i may be smooshing two things together in my head

 

9 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

• VCOOL. THIS IS THE STUFF FROM ACTUAL GAME-PLAY THAT NEEDS TO BE VERIFIED.

 

As far as I am aware, Snarky is right here. Only hard enhancements (including Alpha as a hard enhancement) will affect your proc chance. Otherwise, who would want to team with Marine and their +range. Boosts do not count. Set bonuses, buffs, the like.

 

EDIT: 

Now that Justin is back, I am able to re-attack some of the questions I had about PPM mechanics. The big test I wanted to look at was whether or not buffing the range on cone powers will result in diminished performance by your procs. Good news, enhancing range does not impact a cone's proc performance!. Now that I gave away the conclusion, folks who don't like math can go ahead and move on. For those who like the math, let's take a look at the results.

 

This is all from @Bopper and fellows @ this link:

 

 

 

Edited October 25 by brass_eagle

[Ukase]

10 minutes ago, brass_eagle said:

This is all from @Bopper and fellows @ this link:

I was just about to post that very link, because I find that page invaluable. 

There was only one thing I wanted to add, and that was my answer to this first question: 

1. What % chance is too low to make it not worth slotting (not talking for set bonus reasons)?

For me, if the odds of firing in a single target attack are less than 80%, I don't slot it, unless slapping a nucleolus or damage enhancement takes it beyond ED limits. Then I might. The only time procs are really valuable is on difficult single targets. Otherwise, they're going to melt pretty fast anyway. So, for things like AVs, GMs and Pylons, procs are darned useful. But for run of the mill play, I don't think they make any noticeable difference, unless they're in a power that typically does low or no damage. Those are the best ones to proc, imo. 

For AoE, a lot depends on the character. If I anticipate large groups, then I'll settle for a lower %, like 20%. If I don't, I'll settle for 50%. 

[brass_eagle]

7 minutes ago, Ukase said:

For AoE, a lot depends on the character. If I anticipate large groups, then I'll settle for a lower %, like 20%. If I don't, I'll settle for 50%. 

 

To be honest, cones are probably the most universal, most hated, least understood, and most variable attack type in the game. Personally, I love them. It's up to the user now. I like it when I regularly 2-3 procs (with one slotted) in my cone.

 

Breath of Fire while a slower animation time was lambasted in "Help Channel" the other day, even though it is (originally) one of the best cones out there. Part of this may have to do with Range enhancements being moved to the lowest schedule. 

 

On my Symphony? I can usually get most of 16 targets to proc. But those are 70 ft range -- 30/40° cones.

 

I would like to quote my striked through text to reemphasize that RECHARGE will matter on cones. (Hard, not bonus)

 

36 minutes ago, brass_eagle said:

As far as I am aware, Snarky is right here. Only hard enhancements (including Alpha as a hard enhancement) will affect your proc chance.

 

For RECHARGE**

 

 

 

ASIDE *nice to see a fellow Cosmic member, hope the Ukase is well.*

[Without_Pause]

5 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Yups.

See here:

 
Mids even has a function to export your current build to a popup menu on the Beta Server + you can semi-automatically grant yourself all the enhancements ("File --> Export to Beta Server")

I recently figured out to put a build on Beta and then move the IOs there for it. Here's the repeat list as the one quoted above isn't quite all it at least it doesn't look that way to me.

 

1. See the link below and install the file where needed.

2. Create your build in Mids.

3. File -> Export -> Export Build to Beta Server.

4. Select the folder where Homecoming is installed. For me this is C:\Games\Homecoming.

5. Log into Beta.

6. Create the character with the same name you exported in Mids.

7. Use the /popmenu freebies command.

8. Set Level -> Level 50.

9. Train to 50.

10. /popmenu <character's name>

11. Use the first option. You now have part one of two loads of IOs.

12. Slot said IOs.

13. Repeat the command again and grab the rest of your IOs.

14. Finish slotting your character. 

 

This essentially takes the time it takes to respec a build. 

 

 

[WuTang]

JEEEEEEZUS, what did I start?

 

Ok after my brain resolidifies, I may have more questions...or none at all. 

 

Seriously, you guys came out hard! Loads of great info THANK YOU ALL!

 

I didn't think about low proc % still being affective in AOE/Cone, that's a makes me look at it in a completely different light. Especially +recharge in an AOE, gonna have to retool my SS Brute again.

 

Also, the build that made me ask all the questions has single attacks at 90% chance and AOE/Cones at 70% chance and I placed an ACC in each to bump their accuracies to just over 100%. So, I think I'll pull the trigger. I linked it in the first page, but it's a Dark Melee Brute and I wasn't happy with the damage it was mediocre at best

 

@Without_Pause suggested to me yesterday to build it out on the test server. But, having never done it before, I took the long way-round and ran out of time.

 

Edited October 25 by WuTang
Chose wrong file

[Bionic_Flea]

You may want to find a place to slot Kismet +tohit.  Ups your chance to to hit on all attacks and can be slotted very early.  Great on proc heavy builds where you have limited Acc slotting.  I usually put it in Combat jumping in the teens as I'm leveling up.  Soul Drain is also an excellent place to slot a Gaussian's Build up proc.

Edited October 25 by Bionic_Flea

[tidge]

15 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Yep it's 1.2 Base instead of the typical 1.0 - not wild but nice enough that my slotting on the main servers for that character only includes a single Acc/Dam/Rech IO (an Obliteration) and the power still has >95% ToHit chance versus +3s!

 

Doesn't the Scrapper Rad Armor set also include PBAoE -Defense? I find that on my characters that can apply an AoE -Defense debuff, that the %procs are much more reliable, without having to worry as much about Accuracy.

[WuTang]

32 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

You may want to find a place to slot Kismet +tohit.  Ups your chance to to hit on all attacks and can be slotted very early.  Great on proc heavy builds where you have limited Acc slotting.  I usually put it in Combat jumping in the teens as I'm leveling up.  Soul Drain is also an excellent place to slot a Gaussian's Build up proc.

 

Yeah I have Kismet +toHit in Agile and I went for a KD proc in Soul Drain, because I think KD is funny...and useful. But yea 10 sec of boost would be nice but I also needed the 6% fire/cold resist