Regeneration Revive

[VPrime]

I suggest that Revive be modified with the following changes.

 

Reduced Recharge

100% Health and Endurance

+Regeneration for 90-120s (Needs to be a significant regen boost)

+Recovery for 90-120s

+Damage for 90-120s

+ToHit for 90-120s

+Recharge for 90-120s

 

In my opinion, this would be a great way to boost Regeneration while sticking true to the theme. The numbers would have to be adjusted properly, but I believe this would make Revive a power always worth picking. It would also make "falling in battle" as a regeneration character "ok", because you can just keep popping the new Revive. Shrug it off just like they do in comics, revive and keep going. 

Edited November 19 by VPrime

[biostem]

While not against the idea of buffing regen in general, I do feel that a self-revive, (unless also usable while still alive), is basically an admission that the set cannot truly be counted upon to keep you alive.  I know this may be a bit hyperbolic, but why not address the set as a whole to bring it up to par...

Edited November 19 by biostem

[VPrime]

45 minutes ago, biostem said:

While not against the idea of buffing regen in general, I do feel that a self-revive, (unless also usable while still alive), is basically an admission that the set cannot truly be counted upon to keep you alive.  I know this may be a bit hyperbolic, but why not address the set as a whole to bring it up to par...

 

Technically, that is how it also works in the comics. The only reason a character like Wolverine has any Regen feats is because he gets defeated first.

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, VPrime said:

Technically, that is how it also works in the comics. The only reason a character like Wolverine has any Regen feats is because he gets defeated first.

 

Well, I'd argue that comic books don't really equate to how the respective powers are implemented in game;  It'd be more akin to him getting knocked back, then the enemy assuming he has been defeated.  I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but Wolverine doesn't really have to toggle his powers back on, and if he is KO'd, it's not like the nearby enemies immediately pounce on him the second he starts healing.  Maybe they could have the power kind of apply a strong placate effect so enemies ignore you for a few seconds after reviving, or that it could wipe away your XP debt, (or just act as a strong self-buff if used when not defeated...

[Glacier Peak]

Phoenix Rising is more akin to what I think is reasonable if a similar change to Revive was made.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, VPrime said:

The only reason a character like Wolverine has any Regen feats is because he gets defeated first.

Huh? Since when?

 

Edit: Look, as far as the OP itself is concerned, I don't care. So I'm going to sit this out. This argument though? Is false. Wolverine's regeneration ability isn't based around his being defeated first. Neither is his combat ability.

 

Edited November 19 by Rudra

[VashNKnives]

I like this if for no other reason to make the self revive better than the pay to win version, but I would also make it clickable prior to defeat to give some T9 vibes maybe at reduced benefits with the rez automatic if defeated (like I guess that pool power) and then enraged, aka like Ra's al Ghul 

[Snarky]

7 hours ago, biostem said:

While not against the idea of buffing regen in general, I do feel that a self-revive, (unless also usable while still alive), is basically an admission that the set cannot truly be counted upon to keep you alive.  I know this may be a bit hyperbolic, but why not address the set as a whole to bring it up to par...

wasnt Regen one of the OG god mode sets they nerfed into oblivion?  

 

in fact, i heard they might nerf it again.  out of habit.

[Vanden]

9 hours ago, biostem said:

While not against the idea of buffing regen in general, I do feel that a self-revive, (unless also usable while still alive), is basically an admission that the set cannot truly be counted upon to keep you alive.  I know this may be a bit hyperbolic, but why not address the set as a whole to bring it up to par...

 

I think it's the opposite. When a set has a self-revive, being defeated is no longer a fail-state, but just a natural part of combat.

 

Think of it this way: if a set has a self-heal, does that mean the set doesn't provide enough defense or resistance to keep you alive? No, of course not. A self-revive is just the logical conclusion of that method of mitigation.

[Mystoc]

self rez powers like revive have gotten even worse since they found ways to code toggles always staying on and suppressing instead, being defeated is the one way we have left that still forces you to toggle everything back on.

 

so even if one could argue revive is a whole other health state not true death since its part of the powerset it still is annoying to have to micro manage toggles. 

 

So yes I support buffing all self rez powers they are too weak.

[TheMoneyMaker]

Using self-rez isn't an admission of the set not being counted on to keep you alive. Dying and getting back up are a feature, not a failing. The fact that other sets have healing and self-rez powers means there's overlap, but it should be the focus of regen.

 

In addition to the buffs suggested by the OP, I would add that use of the Regen self-rez should erase the XP debt from your previous death because debt is meant to slow down your advancement for failing, but if dying is expected of the set then you shouldn't be punished for it.

Edited November 20 by TheMoneyMaker
"I wasn't dead, bub. I just took a nap. Now it's your turn for a nap."

[megaericzero]

1 hour ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

In addition to the buffs suggested by the OP, I would add that use of the Regen self-rez should erase the XP debt from your previous death because debt is meant to slow down your advancement for failing, but if dying is expected of the set then you shouldn't be punished for it.

Personally, I whole-heartedly agree with this sentiment. I'm sure it'll get hand-waived as free badge progress.

[biostem]

On 11/19/2024 at 7:36 AM, Vanden said:

if a set has a self-heal, does that mean the set doesn't provide enough defense or resistance to keep you alive?

No, it means that set has holes in its protection, and a heal is a catch-all way of addressing that.  However, it's important to note that you aren't punished with debt for using a self heal, like you are with a self-rez.

 

On 11/19/2024 at 7:36 AM, Vanden said:

I think it's the opposite. When a set has a self-revive, being defeated is no longer a fail-state, but just a natural part of combat.

Except other sets don't need it, and as others have already mentioned, you still suffer the punishment/penalty for being defeated.  Wouldn't you rather play a set that has other tools that prevent the need for a self-rez in the first place, (besides RP/concept reasons)?

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

On 11/19/2024 at 5:36 AM, Vanden said:

if a set has a self-heal, does that mean the set doesn't provide enough defense or resistance to keep you alive?

No, it means that set has holes in its protection, and a heal is a catch-all way of addressing that.  However, it's important to note that you aren't punished with debt for using a self heal, like you are with a self-rez.

Every armor set has holes. Some armor sets include a heal to keep you going. Some armor sets include a rez to get you back up in the fight. That does not mean the armor set is saying it can't keep you alive. All it means is that the armor set has more examples of characters being nearly unkillable despite what should be lethal amounts of harm being endured. Using Regeneration and Wolverine as example. There are comics, or at least 1, where Wolverine was witnessed being killed. (The example I remember was after Magneto ripped the adamantium out of him, he basically went feral, and the X-men monitored him from a distance until he settled back down. He was run over and all his vitals were flat. The comic full on stated he was dead. [Edit: The picture even showed him being literally completely flattened.] Then a little bit later, he stopped being street pizza, got up, and continued.) The self-rez in those sets simply say that even being killed won't keep the character down, the character is that tough to deal with.

 

If you want to think of self-rezzes being taken by the player as an admission of inadequacy or whatever? Fine. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and approaches to things. However, that does not mean self-rez powers themselves are such declarations.

 

1 hour ago, biostem said:

On 11/19/2024 at 5:36 AM, Vanden said:

I think it's the opposite. When a set has a self-revive, being defeated is no longer a fail-state, but just a natural part of combat.

Except other sets don't need it, and as others have already mentioned, you still suffer the punishment/penalty for being defeated. 

No set in the game needs a self-rez depending on how the character is built, played, and how their defenses stack against the current faction they are facing. Not even sets that have self-rezzes. However, every set can fail to keep the character alive. And when that happens, only sets with self-rezzes say "Okay, that was a good shot. Now it's my turn." with their ability to get back up from even being defeated to resume the fight.

 

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Wouldn't you rather play a set that has other tools that prevent the need for a self-rez in the first place, (besides RP/concept reasons)?

Except that with the exception of Willpower, the sets with self-rezzes also include heals. (And Willpower's self-rez includes a universal damage buff, improved recharge rate for all powers, improved recovery so you can use those faster recharging powers, and an improved ability to hit targets. Pretty good for a "That was a good shot, now it's my turn" style power.) And those sets that lack self-rezzes? Aren't necessarily better at staving off character defeat than the sets with self-rezzes. They just happen to have other tools to deal with other situations.

 

So again, if you want to view having a self-rez as being a bad thing, that's entirely on you. Don't take the self-rez and use the power choice to pick something else. However, self-rezzes are not inherent declarations of set inadequacy. They are declarations of concept robustness, that not even what should be death for the character will ever really be so.

 

Edited November 20 by Rudra

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

self-rezzes are not inherent declarations of set inadequacy. They are declarations of concept robustness, that not even what should be death for the character will ever really be so.

Are you saying that there is no possibility that, if you were to replace the self-rez with some other power, it wouldn't alleviate the need to use said self-rez, even if just a little?  I have no issue with a set having a self-rez for theme or "flavor/concept", but it is pretty much a truism that if you "need" a self-rez, then the rest of the set was not up to snuff.  Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't play such sets or take the self-rez, but ask yourself this - if you took some other power instead, would it have removed the need for it in the first place?

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, biostem said:

Are you saying that there is no possibility that, if you were to replace the self-rez with some other power, it wouldn't alleviate the need to use said self-rez, even if just a little?

Yes. That is exactly what I am saying. Replacing the self-rez in the sets that have them won't change how well those sets survive. It can shore up other weaknesses, but it won't particularly change their survivability. All it takes is enemies that use damage types the set is weak against, and every armor set has at least 1 damage type they are weak against, and that character will go down like a sand castle when high tide rolls in unless you turn the difficulty back down to be able to survive it. (So they can still be effectively unkillable, not facing defeat, while playing at the default +0/x1, but +4/x8 is going to see them curl up and die.) Every set has that. Even offensive sets like Fiery Aura can easily achieve 90% damage resist against three damage types, and 50% against everything other than toxic and psionic. And when enemies that exploit your armor's damage type vulnerabilities do so, only sets with self-rezzes get back up without needing assistance (including awakens). Every armor set is designed to not be universally strong. So all replacing the self-rez would do is change how your character handles other debuffs/effects, because I'm willing to bet that the self-rez will never be replaced with a response to what the set is already weak against.

 

13 minutes ago, biostem said:

but it is pretty much a truism that if you "need" a self-rez, then the rest of the set was not up to snuff. 

Then I guess no armor set in the game is up to snuff. I've seen every armor set in the game die at one time or another.

 

13 minutes ago, biostem said:

Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't play such sets or take the self-rez, but ask yourself this - if you took some other power instead, would it have removed the need for it in the first place?

Not in my experience, no. For instance, Willpower is my favorite armor set. I use it a lot. It has no self-heal and it includes a self-rez. I always take the self-rez. I almost never wind up using the self-rez even at +4/x8 difficulty. And when I do fall in combat? It's right there for me to use. Others may choose to not take the self-rez. That is their choice. And they will handle +4/x8 just fine. After all, I take the self-rez and handle it just fine. And then when they fall in combat, their only choice is to hosp'. Or use a wakie. Or ask their teammates for a wakie or rez.

 

Edited November 20 by Rudra
Edited to add "do so".

[TheMoneyMaker]

11 hours ago, megaericzero said:

Personally, I whole-heartedly agree with this sentiment. I'm sure it'll get hand-waived as free badge progress.

Free badge process is easy to address: don't use the self-rez that removes the debt, use inspirations (including the level up full inspiration bonus), or have one of the two rez powers available from the START vendor, or wait until a teammate rezzes you, or go to the hospital or your base. Dead isn't dead in COH, even for the non-regen heroes. But maybe the Regen characters should have a little something extra for their rez power since dying is so expected.