Thermal Defenders....

[BurtHutt]

So, I am a fan of the AT but never see this power (ok, rarely if ever). I have never given Thermal a real chance but feel like I want to take it for a test spin. There isn't much new content so the altitis is kicking in - especially with the Great Name Release of 2024. Can people suggest a good secondary and provide builds? 

 

I'm also interested in discussions about the powerset. Is it worth playing? Is there a magic combo? What's your attack chain? Thanks for your time :)

[kelika2]

Fire is my answer to everything as a defender.

But if you want to be 'le heeler fase' your best pet will probably be mastermind.  at a certain point most folks just dont need healing, pets on the other hand will.

 

demon/thermal to stack resistances

necro/thermal to fill their fire gap

beast/thermal to also stack resistances

 

ranged pets will have an easier time staying alive

[BurtHutt]

I don't know if I can play MMs but it would be a nice set for them... I just couldn't get into them.

 

I know some tougher stuff requires heals and debuff stuff and so does some lower level content. I used healing often and enjoy playing at less than uber ability.

[Gerswin Jr]

Thermal is a great set for certain team compositions. The trend of building for def means people neglect resists, so often the thermal shields actually add survivability rather than just excess over the cap def. Thermal is a jack of all trades with heals and both offensive and defensive buffs and debuffs.

On corrs I like to pair it with ice, but on a def I could see a number of blast sets having synergy. Electric for end drain, sonic for -res, etc. 

Good thermals keep several teammates forged and pay attention to positioning to get maximum endurance recovery for the team with heat loss. The self heal opens up options for patron/epic pools. I generally try to get 165+ global recharge and switch between musculature and cardiac alphas, usually musc.

Ovrrall, thermal is overshadowed by cold, nature and even elec for hard mode damage mitigation/healing, but the margin is well within the range of skill distribution in that the best thermals are far better than average colds.

 

 

[Renatos1023]

I agree with Gershwin. Thermal is a jack of all trades, but master of none set. Having played all of the defender sets to 50 between HC and live, Thermal/ is on my lower end of sets. It isn't bad, but it is very spread out in what it does....between shielding, healing, buffing, and debuffing. I went Thermal/Fire for my Defender for theme. 

 

IMO the Thermal/ debuffs are lacking. But this comes from my love of playing Cold/ and Storm/ both of which have a rain -res/-def debuff that is pretty much auto-hit. I hate that Thermal's T9 can miss, because for all intents and purposes it is the same debuff as Freezing Rain/Sleet (which I believe are like T5/6 in Storm and Cold). The rain debuffs from both Storm and Cold just are so much better than Thermal's T9, that it's hard for me to play my Thermal anymore. I think that is my biggest gripe with Thermal...the T9 really needs to be adjusted to come in line with Freezing Rain/Sleet. 

 

Thermal is fun, don't get me wrong. But it is one of the busier defender sets, kind of like Empathy. YMMV, I say play it and see if it fits your style. None of the Defender primaries are terrible, Defs are my main for a reason. 

Edited November 25 by Renatos1023

[Psylenz0511]

18 minutes ago, BurtHutt said:

I don't know if I can play MMs but it would be a nice set for them... I just couldn't get into them.

 

I know some tougher stuff requires heals and debuff stuff and so does some lower level content. I used healing often and enjoy playing at less than uber ability.

 

I hear you friend. Most of my heroes get maxed out incarnate and get shelved. I gain incarnate levels helping lower levels on WSTs.

 

Thermal is an excellent support set that includes heals as one of its tools. While at higher levels you probably won't have to heal as often, the thermal shields do NOT go out of style with the added Resistance buffs 🙂 Thermal also has a 'clear mind' clone that is single target, which is less than ideal such as the forcefield, sonic, and electric affinity aoe style mezz protectors.

Also, Thermal has a 'clone' of fortitude called Forge Ally (+DMG, +To Hit) without any defense buff. 

 

Additionally thermal has two mighty fine debuffs: heat exhaustion ( Ranged Foe -DMG, -END, -Recovery, -Regeneration) and melt armor  ( Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe -Res, -DEF ) Heat exhaustion is your boss killer with the -regen.

 

The thermal shields, and the debuffs all make thermal superior to empathy in my book, but I am biased. I can tell you about the keypad binds to make thermal buffs, heals easier, (check out the sandolphan keypad binds for Masterminds for an idea)

 

That said masterminds such as demon summoning, Necro, ninjas can definitely use thermal shielding. Personally I think demon summoning/thermal is quite the beastly build.

 

For secondaries, I like AoEs. Fire, Water blast, sonic, and dark all have great aoes that can make your thermal defender valuable to teams at all levels with the secondary bonuses. Fire blast has a secondary effect of more damage. 🙂

 

 

 

[BurtHutt]

Does anyone have a Thermal build? I think I want to try Therm/Sonic. I'm not sure how to slot and assign stuff for this combo but it seems like a good debuff and team helper. Much appreciated 🙂

[Maelwys]

I'd an Earth/Thermal Controller back on live that was pretty decent. The combination of the Thermal buffs, Pet +Res aura IOs and Stoney's own inherent resistances meant the pet was at the Resistance cap to practically everything, and the Controller themselves could lock multiple spawns down simultaneously so they were extremely good at aggro control.

I hardly ever experienced issues getting the debuffs to land, but Earth Control outputs a ridiculous amount of -def.

The character brought considerable value to almost any team and was one of my preferred options for AV tanking.

 

I suspect going either Dark Blast (ToHit debuffage) or Sonic Blast (Resistance debuffage) would be the optimal path on a Defender. However for damage output purposes... the Thermal powerset is very busy (especially if you're keeping up a consistent Forge and Thaw rotation plus "main healing") so there might be a benefit to veering towards something like Fire or Ice instead... and having one or two very effective offensive abilities instead of lots of mediocre ones which together make up a high DPS attack chain.

[Auroxis]

6 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

Does anyone have a Thermal build? I think I want to try Therm/Sonic. I'm not sure how to slot and assign stuff for this combo but it seems like a good debuff and team helper. Much appreciated 🙂

 

Defender (Thermal Radiation - Sonic Attack).mbd

[Maelwys]

FWIW there's another build on IceSphere's Dropbox: 

Build: 
Defender (Thermal Radiation - Sonic Attack).mbd
 
The originator seems to have gone for Hardcapped S/L Resists and then Ranged Defence.
Looks passable at a quick glance. It's a bit more offensive orientated than @Auroxis's one above.

That D-Sync in Heat Exhaustion is likely to break your wallet; but thankfully there's a fair bit of wiggle room to adjust it + rejig a few other things: Mind Over Body can be dropped to 3 slots (Lv50+5 End/Res, Lv50+5 Res, Unique) confortably. Likewise Weave could drop a slot (lose the Def/End/Rech Shield Wall and then Boost the Def and Def/End to +5). The Eradication Proc in Wail could also be swapped to a Fury of the Gladiator -Res. And Forge could do with a Gaussian Proc (since there's no amplify) and the Travel power with the Winter's Gift unique...
 

Edited November 25 by Maelwys

[Auroxis]

@Maelwys I wouldn't sell my build's offense short. The existence of proc GFS, Assault, and the optimization for -res instead of paltry DPA in other sonic attacks (Scream, Shout) keeps the build's offense pretty solid. Keep in mind with current sonic, the -res debuff duration of Shriek, Scream and Shout is 8s. So just sprinkling in fast Shrieks does the -res trick just fine as long as you have some high DPA attacks in your chain (Screech, Char, GFS) to support it.

[Psylenz0511]

Ok there WAS a diplomatic discussion for comparison between thermal and other defender debuff and buff sets that went into some detail. There were preferences expressed but no personal attacks that I saw. What happened? I thought there was useful information in the discussion from all sides. I think the moderation of this thread went overboard.

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Auroxis said:

@Maelwys I wouldn't sell my build's offense short. The existence of proc GFS, Assault, and the optimization for -res instead of paltry DPA in other sonic attacks (Scream, Shout) keeps the build's offense pretty solid. Keep in mind with current sonic, the -res debuff duration of Shriek, Scream and Shout is 8s. So just sprinkling in fast Shrieks does the -res trick just fine as long as you have some high DPA attacks in your chain (Screech, Char, GFS) to support it.

Oh I'm sure it's grand at endgame for ST damage - but you've only two attacks before Lv28 and a single AoE (Wail). GFS requiring Melee jousting is also a bit dubious on a non-softcapped toon. 
(Ordinarilly I'm ambivalent about Shout, although it might make more sense on an Active set like Thermal...  however I'm a big fan of Siren's Song; procbombed or otherwise!)

Your Alpha Slot selection buffing +Res rather than damage; and taking both Thaw and the Rez makes your build present as more support orientated (which isn't a bad thing for a Defender, don't get me wrong!) than the IceSphere one (which to me looks a bit more like a Corruptor port). 
If I was to do up a build from scratch then it'd likely trend more towards yours; but with Siren's Song and possibly Aim.

Neither of the builds have fleshed out their incarnate picks beyond Alpha... but I'd assume either Clarion Destiny or Melee Core Hybrid for Mez Protection purposes (and the Hybrids are typically better set to Assault or Support). Interface would be Reactive, obviously; and Lorewise I'd go BP Radial all the way. For Judgement I'm typically a fan of Void for the -Damage debuff; but Sonic already has a PBAoE nuke... so Pyro or Ion would give them a ranged Enemy Deletion button; and Vorpal would self-buff defense a bit if they're using the Destiny slot for Clarion over Barrier (and perhaps be fun to stack with Siren's Song).

I had a quick dig through my own build folders and the only current-ish one I can find that's Homecoming-specced is a Bot/Thermal MM. Whilst I realise the OP isn't keen on MMs, it's worth pointing out that Bots/ makes it pretty easy to self-softcap Defense and get your pets most of the way there before incarnates (slotted Protector Bot Bubbles adding ~21% goes a long way) leaving plenty of room for pool/epic picks - zMastermind - Robotics - Thermal.mbd
 

Edited November 25 by Maelwys

[Without_Pause]

12 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Fire is my answer to everything as a defender.

But if you want to be 'le heeler fase' your best pet will probably be mastermind.  at a certain point most folks just dont need healing, pets on the other hand will.

 

demon/thermal to stack resistances

necro/thermal to fill their fire gap

beast/thermal to also stack resistances

 

ranged pets will have an easier time staying alive

Counter point, I did Thermal/fire, and in all honesty while yes, Fire is always Fire, I think it is a disservice to not pick it on a Corr. I ultimately rerolled to a Thermal/sonic as I feel like Sonic is one of the places a Defender wins out. I grabbed my Thermal for a Posi II and there was a Cold on the team. Needless to say health bars rarely moved. It mostly moved on mine due to me always being aggressive and not having my own shields. I know we had someone playing Time as well. I tossed out some occasional targeted heals, but really that was it. I think overall Thermal is fine with its strength as covering any lack of Res on the team. The rest is really just gravy. 

 

This is very much a WIP as the build is all of Level 40. It is at least v3, so I have had multiple passes over on it, but by no means is this a final build. It's 100% get it to 50, and then decide.

 

 

Howling Phoenix v3 - Defender (Thermal Radiation - Sonic Attack).mbd

Edited November 25 by Without_Pause

[TygerDarkstorm]

12 hours ago, Gerswin Jr said:

 maximum endurance recovery for the team with heat loss.

 

 

Thermal doesn't have a team end recovery power; that would be Cold. Thermal has 2 single target debuffs and Forge.

[ZorkNemesis]

I have a Thermal/Ice Defender that happens to be a bit of a monster.  It's my go-to character when I join a team that needs some kind of support.  Fire shields and Forge are excellent team support while Heat Exhaustion can completely neuter a dangerous target and Melt Armor is (imo) a top-tier -DEF/RES combo.  Throw in some proc'd out Ice Blasts and i'm capable of dishing considerable damage to boot.  Thermal isn't perfect; the debuffs come late and the shields tend to make the heals less useful (the resistances tend to make the healing unnecessary unless someone takes a big hit or isn't moving out of the axe rain) but I still like having them.  My only real dislike about the set is that Thaw is annoying to have to pass around since it's single target but I guess Clear Mind has the same problem; also you can't immediately buff someone you revive with Power of the Phoenix since the 15 second untouchable applies to everything.

[BurtHutt]

Wow some great info on the powerset. Thanks a ton, all. 

 

I went in a bit of a different direction: Thermal/Dark. Any builds on that combo?

[Psylenz0511]

59 minutes ago, BurtHutt said:

Wow some great info on the powerset. Thanks a ton, all. 

 

I went in a bit of a different direction: Thermal/Dark. Any builds on that combo?

 

Very suitable choice.

[TheMoncrief]

On 11/24/2024 at 8:32 PM, kelika2 said:

Fire is my answer to everything as a defender.

But if you want to be 'le heeler fase' your best pet will probably be mastermind.  at a certain point most folks just dont need healing, pets on the other hand will.

 

demon/thermal to stack resistances

necro/thermal to fill their fire gap

beast/thermal to also stack resistances

 

ranged pets will have an easier time staying alive

 

Is Fire Blast actually good on a Defender? I generally care about two things with Defender blast sets - useful debuffs or proc opportunities. Defenders have poor damage, so if you're blasting (which you should be unless you have an exceptionally busy primary) you either want procs which deal damage without respecting the AT damage scale or you want to apply a debuff to weaken the enemy in some way to. Fire has, honestly, neither. There are a few proc opportunities in the AoE attacks, but the single targets are ranged damage and that's all - no Knock, no Def Debuff, no Slow, nothing to allow you to slot more procs. And Ranged Damage sets have incredibly bad proc opportunities. As for useful debuffs... yeah, no. Fire has none.

 

I much prefer Rad Blast or Dual Pistols if I plan to actually be blasting regularly for damage output, or Sonic Blast to apply the exceptionally useful Resistance Debuff. I like Ice Blast's single target attacks, since they include a couple of holds and lots of slows, which are both useful debuffs *AND* proc opportunities, but since the bulk of Ice's AoE is from two rain powers which don't take procs well, I'm not totally enthusiastic about the set on a Defender.

 

Nothing against Fire Blast in general, it's my favorite Blast set for a Blaster, and in my top 3 for a Corruptor, but I feel like it's not the best fit for a Defender. Am I wrong?

[BurtHutt]

Thermal is a pretty busy one. I somewhat agree with your take on Fire but I almost always team so the lower damage is often mitigated. 

 

I tried a couple of proc monsters and you sacrifice a lot of set bonuses to proc out powers. I would rather not do this as, again, I team.

 

For solo players, I guess it's a different story.

[kelika2]

2 hours ago, TheMoncrief said:

 

Is Fire Blast actually good on a Defender?

im not into procs and stuff.  but fire blast is good on a defender.

[TheMoncrief]

I mean, I team mostly too. But I still tend to prefer proc opportunities if I'm aiming to do any real damage with my blasts. I'm more likely to choose something with good debuffs, though. Ice or Rad or Sonic, generally. Mostly Sonic, although the holds in Ice are quite useful.

[Without_Pause]

Fire is still good damage for a Defender. The issue is DoT being clearly better on a Corr. I can't think of any aspect where Fire is actually better on a Defender. 

[Hjarki]

On 12/9/2024 at 10:06 AM, Without_Pause said:

Fire is still good damage for a Defender. The issue is DoT being clearly better on a Corr. I can't think of any aspect where Fire is actually better on a Defender. 

Fire's DoT doesn't Scourge.

 

In terms of a secondary to pair with Thermal, I'd recommend Electrical Blast. It's a purely ranged set that, once you drain an opponent's Endurance, is as hard-hitting as any secondary. Drained enemies are also almost completely neutered (AV/GM still get their special abilities), making it a fantastic set from a defensive perspective. Also, while Heat Exhaustion inexplicably can't take EndMod sets, it's an end/recovery debuff.

 

Lastly, Electrical Blast exemplars well because it gets the complete single target rotation by level 20.

[Without_Pause]

18 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Fire's DoT doesn't Scourge.

 

In terms of a secondary to pair with Thermal, I'd recommend Electrical Blast. It's a purely ranged set that, once you drain an opponent's Endurance, is as hard-hitting as any secondary. Drained enemies are also almost completely neutered (AV/GM still get their special abilities), making it a fantastic set from a defensive perspective. Also, while Heat Exhaustion inexplicably can't take EndMod sets, it's an end/recovery debuff.

 

Lastly, Electrical Blast exemplars well because it gets the complete single target rotation by level 20.

Rain of Fire should. Elec isn't purely ranged if you want to max out End Drain, which, to be honest, is one of the weakest forms of mitigation in the game.