Improving the Christmas Event

[mechahamham]

I started this Christmas event like I started the one last year, in 2023. I took my newest character to rescue Baby New Year and defeat Lady Winter. And then I logged out.

 

Like last year, I'm finding myself just not wanting to log back in for the event, and am left wondering why. This seems out of place for me since I enjoy the Halloween event so much I run all my characters through all the badges, many of them solo. I don't really care for the Murder Motel league in PI, but I adore solo Trick or Treating and will lead Dr. Kane's trial repeatedly.

 

I've put together a few reasons why I think the Christmas Event is turning me away:

 

Opening Christmas Presents isn't very challenging, and is hard to do at level due to limited spawns:

 

One of the things that makes solo or small-team Trick or Treating fun for me is that it's constantly challenging. Even well-slotted, well-equipped characters can get TOUGH fights in the form of the Halloween EBs.

 

(That difficulty completely dries up in full groups and might as well not exist in leagues full of incarnate players. Trying to contribute to ANY league event when you're not decked out with incarnate powers is like trying to extinguish a match with a water pistol when Superdude420 next to you is dousing the entire area with his fire-hose.)

 

The solo-friendly event for Christmas is opening presents. Unlike Trick or Treating, presents have limited spawns and always spawn at zone level rather than player level. If you happen to be opening them in a zone where the snowmen that spawn aren't grey to you, they can be anywhere from purple to green, all in the same zone.

 

Since our population is so top-heavy, higher-level zones tend to be saturated in terms of people opening the available presents. The unsaturated zones tend to be lower level meaning that it's quite possible for a single player to control a huge part of that zone's present spawns, even if he or she defeats all the snowmen they spawn. This was also a problem during this year's anniversary event, which uses the same spawn mechanics.

 

My suggestions:

 

Tweak the spawn rules for presents and Snow Men somewhat: Require players to open presents in a zone their level or have the Winter Horde snowmen always spawn at the opener's level.

 

To avoid situations where a level 50 is littering Atlas Park with level 50 snowmen, have those snowmen only agro the present opener unless attacked.

 

To avoid the situation where you have 50 level 50s crammed into Peregrine Island trying to open all the same present spawns, populate Cimerora and the Rikti Warzone with presents. Kalisti Wharf seems to have adequate present (and time capsule) spawns, but players tend to forget the zone exists because there's so very little content there. It's possible that Kalisti could use an increased number of spawns to make it more appealing.

 

Baby New Year and Lady Winter missions are repetitive and grindy:

 

While Old Man Time's missions for the Christmas event have fun difficulty spikes in the form of Snaptooth and Lady Winter, the rest of the missions are very samey-samey-same-old. You've already fought lots of snowmen while opening presents, and if you want to earn rather than simply buy the Candy-keeper's badges, it means grinding the ever-loving snot out of snowmen in those missions.

 

The missions are great for single groups, but then you have to convince the group that you're there to 'Defeat All Winter Horde', which tends to be ignored by PUGers. Yes, we know you can solo Snaptooth, Bobby. That's wonderful. Now come help us KO all these snow hydra.

 

My suggestions:

 

Add a more linear, indoor mission to Old Man Time's lineup. Snowmen are *okay* to fight, but having some more interesting enemies would go a long way to making it less repetitive.

 

Consider adding a 'Must Defeat All' challenge setting to the game. Check a box to convert any mission or taskforce into a 'Defeat All'. This would help prevent the situation where that one player 'Didn't hear' that you wanted to defeat all, or 'forgot' and stealthed all the mission's objectives, not just on the Winter event missions, but for a LOT of the game's content.

 

Also consider re-weighting the cost of the Candy Keeper's badges or the Candy Cane drop rate so that each badge is about one mission's worth of effort.

 

Leading Lord Winter's Realm below level 50 is punitive:

 

I don't make any secret of the fact that I simply *do not enjoy* the Incarnate game, but that's another thread. That doesn't mean that it's impossible to lead teams and leagues if your character is not Incarnate or even if you're not 50.

 

However, trying to keep a league together long enough to start Lord Winter's Realm when you're not level 50 is an exercise in frustration. A significant number of people who are interested in joining the league simply bounce when they see the league leader is not 50. From those who stay, there's a constant demand to "Give the star to a 50", even before the event starts.

 

Perhaps the most frustrating experience I've had with this trial was with a player who I truly believe was trying to be helpful. However, they were also dismissive and demanding. After they joined the league I was building, they started demanding to lead the league since they were 'already 50 and lead everything anyways'. It seemed like one of those situations where a person is condescending without realizing it. Regardless of if they meant to treat me like small child or not, they still managed to.

 

My suggestions:

 

League leadership mechanics could use some rework. I've heard people say that they're perfect and should not be touched, but even the league window has some jankyness that could be ironed out... such as the difficulty arranging team leaders. Making the process of anchoring the league's level seems like an obvious pain point that could be addressed.

 

What I'd really like for Christmas is a 4-person trial. I adore Dr. Kane's and Summer Blockbuster, and I believe I'd still adore them without their awards. I'd love a Christmas Double Feature to play in theaters 3 and 4. Help John McClain kick Hans Gruber off of Nakatomi Tower or assist Kevin McAlister in booby-trapping his house to defeat the burglars. The award doesn't need to be equivalent to an Overwhelming Force IO, but it'd be nice if it was about the same as the award for Lord Winter.

 

All events are not for everyone, and that's... okay... if a bit sad. I think that with a very minor bit of tweaking, the Christmas Event could be a LOT better for most players.

[Rudra]

Some problems:

 

43 minutes ago, mechahamham said:

Tweak the spawn rules for presents and Snow Men somewhat: Require players to open presents in a zone their level or have the Winter Horde snowmen always spawn at the opener's level.

If players can only open presents in zones appropriate to their levels, then that top heavy comment you made earlier in the post gets exacerbated. Now the only way to get presents if you are level 41+ is in PI, Grandville, Dark Astoria, and maybe Kallisti Wharf or Cimerora if they get presents too. And if the mobs always spawn at the opener's level instead, then you will see zones like Atlas Park awash in level 50 mobs.

 

43 minutes ago, mechahamham said:

To avoid situations where a level 50 is littering Atlas Park with level 50 snowmen, have those snowmen only agro the present opener unless attacked.

Mobs spawn as blue, yellow, or red. For mobs to not attack unless attacked, they would need to be yellow. At which point they won't even attack the character that opened the present. And even if they were somehow only going to attack the opening character unless attacked by others, that still leaves the opening character able to just leave the spawn there. And so again you wind up with the situation where zones like Atlas Park will be awash with level 50s, just slightly more safe since you can still wind up targeting and attacking an enemy in range of your powers that you didn't want to attack if you are spamming your attacks because of how the game's targeting works. And how would the present opening character's teammates be affected?

 

43 minutes ago, mechahamham said:

Consider adding a 'Must Defeat All' challenge setting to the game. Check a box to convert any mission or taskforce into a 'Defeat All'. This would help prevent the situation where that one player 'Didn't hear' that you wanted to defeat all, or 'forgot' and stealthed all the mission's objectives, not just on the Winter event missions, but for a LOT of the game's content.

There is a reason why many players hate defeat all missions. Some mobs can spawn in some really odd places. Like the Arachnos that spawn under the map because there is a valid, open area where they can appear under the floor where they were supposed to spawn. Some mobs get knocked into walls, spawn in walls, or even wander into walls. And when that happens, they can't be attacked many times. And finally there are spawns where one or more mobs simply get missed and now the team has to search the map they've already cleared trying to find that one mob. (Edit: This is particularly problematic on cave maps with all their hidden nooks and crannies mobs like to find.) And the last spawn marker isn't reliable. It does not appear too often. (Edit: And when it does spawn, it has no elevation reference. Which gets problematic again on cave maps even when the marker appears.) So if you make your missions defeat alls and the game enforces it? You are going to find yourself very lonely as a team leader trying to recruit other players as word spreads.

 

43 minutes ago, mechahamham said:

Also consider re-weighting the cost of the Candy Keeper's badges or the Candy Cane drop rate so that each badge is about one mission's worth of effort.

To this I have to say "Also consider buying candy canes on the AH from other players". You don't even have to wait for the winter event to do so. There are players that hoard their event salvage and then post them on the AH after the events have ended.

 

43 minutes ago, mechahamham said:

Perhaps the most frustrating experience I've had with this trial was with a player who I truly believe was trying to be helpful. However, they were also dismissive and demanding. After they joined the league I was building, they started demanding to lead the league since they were 'already 50 and lead everything anyways'. It seemed like one of those situations where a person is condescending without realizing it. Regardless of if they meant to treat me like small child or not, they still managed to.

I'm sorry you had to deal with that. I'm also sorry to say that it isn't limited to just the Winter Lord's realm trial. If something can be done by a level 50 at level 50 and is also available to lower levels, there will always be a call for the 50s to lead if a non-50 is trying to form it.

Edited December 12 by Rudra

[Snarky]

Myself, i HATE opening 200 presents.  I just did it once.  If i had to do it in a level 50 zone, jostling with other badgers?    F-ing horror show

[lemming]

1 hour ago, mechahamham said:

I've heard people say that they're perfect and should not be touched

I have never heard anyone say this.   People have figured out some ways to make it less painful, but I don't know anyone who wouldn't mind a better way.

 

On the other stuff:

I'm fine with the way the presents work, but would like the requirement dropped to 25 or 50.

 

A SBB/House of Kane style four person trial would be great.

 

Most trials/TF, etc..., most people want it run at the highest level possible.   And there is a lot of churn with the WL trial for people to run thru all the chars they want the badge on.  I don't see that changing, but maybe some of these trials could just run like an instanced MSR where it's just set to 50 for everyone.

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, lemming said:

I'm fine with the way the presents work, but would like the requirement dropped to 25 or 50.

That would help with the competition if we needed less per character. I like this idea.

[kelika2]

i thought about making a snowball fight thread where it takes the mechanics from steel canyons housefires

players can pick up snowball temp power boxes

fire based people can help directly

fighting a GM or something

[Glacier Peak]

When I opened a present in Atlas Park on my Level 50, the enemy snowmen were not Level 50. They were zone level appropriate. 

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Glacier Peak said:

When I opened a present in Atlas Park on my Level 50, the enemy snowmen were not Level 50. They were zone level appropriate. 

That is part of what the OP wants to change.

[Glacier Peak]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That is part of what the OP wants to change.

Wouldn't that be a terrible idea? 

 

Edit: This is a terrible idea. 

Edited December 12 by Glacier Peak

[UltraAlt]

34 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

When I opened a present in Atlas Park on my Level 50, the enemy snowmen were not Level 50. They were zone level appropriate. 

 

32 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That is part of what the OP wants to change.

 

I believe it was changed so that high level players wouldn't leave high level mobs in low level zones.

[mechahamham]

1 hour ago, lemming said:

Most trials/TF, etc..., most people want it run at the highest level possible.   And there is a lot of churn with the WL trial for people to run thru all the chars they want the badge on.  I don't see that changing, but maybe some of these trials could just run like an instanced MSR where it's just set to 50 for everyone.

 

Instancing Lord Winter using the same rules as MSR would be wonderful. Part of the problem then becomes explaining that, no, you don't need a 50 to lead because everyone gets levellocked at 50, which is still far and away better than people just bouncing because you're trying to recruit but not 50.

 

I run into this fairly often when recruiting for Summer Blockbuster or Drowning in Blood:

 

"Wait, don't we need a high level to lead?! Won't we die if we're not 50 for this?!"

"No, this one locks everyone to level 29, regardless of their real level."

 

Occasionally people STILL don't understand that, so I explain it in terms of the level-locking that they've already experienced in Death from Below. "Y'know how DFB always starts you at level 2? This is like that, except you're level 29 for both movies."

 

Also, at what point did players start thinking they were instantly going to die if there wasn't a 50 leading the team? (Incarnates. It happened when Incarnates dropped.) I feel like the level scaling mechanic needs a big billboard in front of Atlas City Hall explaining what it does and doesn't do. Or maybe Mender Tesseract needs a 'Level Scaling Tutorial' under her name in Ouro.

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, mechahamham said:

Also, at what point did players start thinking they were instantly going to die if there wasn't a 50 leading the team? (Incarnates. It happened when Incarnates dropped.)

No, it has been that way for as long as I can remember for the game. Incarnates may have made it more visible, but that was a thing even before the requirement for you to be within a minimum level of the targets to get xp before they auto-sidekicked everyone up to 1 level short of the mission holder for the change. There has always been an expectation that the highest level character leads when possible.

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, mechahamham said:

Also, at what point did players start thinking they were instantly going to die if there wasn't a 50 leading the team?

 

I'm thinking it started sometime before the Sunset and after the AE was released. (I don't think it started when the Incarnate system dropped.)

Some of this was "imposed" on other players by level 50's ... probably most of it.

 

Honestly, at least some of the task forces go better for characters that are near the starting level with the task force if it is set for a lower level. The enemy groups often progress to become more powerful toward the level cap of the taskforce content. Lower level players won't have the powers to compete with the higher level enemies even though they are mentored to a higher level.

All it does to give "the 50" a star is to give them control of the "boot" and allow them to have more of their powers.

I have often seen players try to "muscle" someone into giving up the star to a 50 when on a task force team, but I back up the leader that they should keep the star. They recruited; it is their team; they should keep the star.

 

Now for Giant Monster hunting, I'm all for a 50 having the star. I don't know if it really needs to be a level 50 for the lower level GMs, but I figure that having the leader be at least the high-level for the zone that the GM is in would be a good idea.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

There has always been an expectation that the highest level character leads when possible.

 

That was never my expectation.

That is what some players - that are higher level than the team leader that is recruiting - want to do so that they have more use of their powers.

Generally, playing on a team with higher level players will mean that you are going to get more xp, but that isn't always the case.

When it comes to a task force, higher level players are more likely to want to speedrun because they are really only doing the content to get merits.

When it comes to content, you can't run your character's content if you give the star away unless the person with the star picks your content ... and then your team is locked to your character's level at any rate.

 

I do expect someone to try to take the star for me if I recruit for content above a DFB.

I do expect a level 50 to try to hijack my team and turn it into a speedrun after I have taken the time to recruit the team.

I don't let that happen.

I do boot people if they try to turn my team into a speedrun, but I do warn them in my recruiting message. I even warn them during the task force if I think that I see them trying to turn it into a speedrun. I think that is the fair thing to do.

I think it would be fair for other people to say that they are recruiting for a speedrun if that is what they are going to be doing. I see more of that happening of late, and I appreciate it.

 

4 hours ago, lemming said:

A SBB/House of Kane style four person trial would be great.

 

Somehow different from the Baby New Year and Lady Winter content?

 

Rescue Old Man Winter living in a Gingerbread House from the Red caps?

Back behind the house, have a Giant Wendigo running around in a snowy forest with Frostlings springing out of the snow?

Maybe talk to some Singers running around the front of the house and summon up the Ghost of Winters Past to fight?

And, of course, more badges!

[Rudra]

38 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

There has always been an expectation that the highest level character leads when possible.

 

That was never my expectation.

Please don't interpret my comment as something more than it was intended. I didn't say everyone expected it. I said there has always been such an expectation in the game. And just like other such things in life, there are those that support it, those that oppose it, and those that are indifferent. (Edit: For as long as I have played the game, there have been players that insist that the highest level character lead the way. Not everyone did it. Not everyone liked it when it happened. However, it has been a thing for as long as I can remember in the game.)

 

Edited December 12 by Rudra

[OEM61]

6 hours ago, mechahamham said:

Leading Lord Winter's Realm below level 50 is punitive:

 

I don't make any secret of the fact that I simply *do not enjoy* the Incarnate game, but that's another thread. That doesn't mean that it's impossible to lead teams and leagues if your character is not Incarnate or even if you're not 50.

 

However, trying to keep a league together long enough to start Lord Winter's Realm when you're not level 50 is an exercise in frustration. A significant number of people who are interested in joining the league simply bounce when they see the league leader is not 50. From those who stay, there's a constant demand to "Give the star to a 50", even before the event starts.

 

Perhaps the most frustrating experience I've had with this trial was with a player who I truly believe was trying to be helpful. However, they were also dismissive and demanding. After they joined the league I was building, they started demanding to lead the league since they were 'already 50 and lead everything anyways'. It seemed like one of those situations where a person is condescending without realizing it. Regardless of if they meant to treat me like small child or not, they still managed to.

 

What I'd really like for Christmas is a 4-person trial. I adore Dr. Kane's and Summer Blockbuster, and I believe I'd still adore them without their awards. I'd love a Christmas Double Feature to play in theaters 3 and 4. Help John McClain kick Hans Gruber off of Nakatomi Tower or assist Kevin McAlister in booby-trapping his house to defeat the burglars. The award doesn't need to be equivalent to an Overwhelming Force IO, but it'd be nice if it was about the same as the award for Lord Winter.

 

All events are not for everyone, and that's... okay... if a bit sad. I think that with a very minor bit of tweaking, the Christmas Event could be a LOT better for most players.

 

3 hours ago, mechahamham said:

Also, at what point did players start thinking they were instantly going to die if there wasn't a 50 leading the team? (Incarnates. It happened when Incarnates dropped.) I feel like the level scaling mechanic needs a big billboard in front of Atlas City Hall explaining what it does and doesn't do. Or maybe Mender Tesseract needs a 'Level Scaling Tutorial' under her name in Ouro.

A day or two ago I sent out the call to take down a Winter Lord in Independence Port.  I was a 22 or something like that.
Someone comes into the zone, asks to help fight the Winter Lord, I invite them, and they immediately quit, telling me that they were not going to fight at that loss of level.

I would have passed the star, no problem, but since I had spotted the monster and sent out the call, I expected that I might get some tells asking for an invite and  I couldn't invite anyone if I wasn't the team leader.

People want their full power.  Exemping down will cost them options and possibly some enhancements, and if they do not need to sacrifice those things then why push the issue?

It isn't that anyone expects to instantly die, it's just that they do not see a need to limit themselves for no reason, and there is absolutely no reason beyond what some other player might think is "more fun".

Not really a great selling point for most other players that just want to fight the monster and move on.

[UltraAlt]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

Please don't interpret my comment as something more than it was intended.

 

I can only read the words you type.

 

 

 

[tidge]

I'm not particularly engaged with winter events, but I think they are fine as-is.

 

As mentioned, it would be a horrible idea to change the presents to only be level-appropriate. As of now, if players want to grind opening presents (and also, defeat winter horde in open world) using lower level zones that are mostly ignored is incredibly convenient and has minimal impact on other badgers.

 

5 hours ago, OEM61 said:

A day or two ago I sent out the call to take down a Winter Lord in Independence Port.  I was a 22 or something like that.
Someone comes into the zone, asks to help fight the Winter Lord, I invite them, and they immediately quit, telling me that they were not going to fight at that loss of level.

 

That's been an attitude since forever. There is a wide spectrum of attitudes on this point! Early in the Homecoming era I had a level 47 fighting fires in Steel Canyon that endured no shortage of nasty chat from a level 50 who insisted I pass him the star, because "I'm level 50". What a maroon that guy was.

 

This is just my personal experience: If I've leveled/chosen power picks for a character in something like an organic way, exemplaring down to the mid 20s on a level 50+ to fight a zone-appropriate Giant Monster with a team is usually not a big deal, with the primary exception being that Lore pets can add beaucoup extra damage, which is probably the most important non-debuff for giant sacks of HP. There is a subtle point about Masterminds who will lose all their henchmen upon getting exemplared down, so the best thing to do with MMs is IMO to invite them to a league first, and then make sure they don't end up on a team lead by a lower level.

[OEM61]

15 hours ago, tidge said:

I'm not particularly engaged with winter events, but I think they are fine as-is.

 

As mentioned, it would be a horrible idea to change the presents to only be level-appropriate. As of now, if players want to grind opening presents (and also, defeat winter horde in open world) using lower level zones that are mostly ignored is incredibly convenient and has minimal impact on other badgers.

 

 

That's been an attitude since forever. There is a wide spectrum of attitudes on this point! Early in the Homecoming era I had a level 47 fighting fires in Steel Canyon that endured no shortage of nasty chat from a level 50 who insisted I pass him the star, because "I'm level 50". What a maroon that guy was.

 

This is just my personal experience: If I've leveled/chosen power picks for a character in something like an organic way, exemplaring down to the mid 20s on a level 50+ to fight a zone-appropriate Giant Monster with a team is usually not a big deal, with the primary exception being that Lore pets can add beaucoup extra damage, which is probably the most important non-debuff for giant sacks of HP. There is a subtle point about Masterminds who will lose all their henchmen upon getting exemplared down, so the best thing to do with MMs is IMO to invite them to a league first, and then make sure they don't end up on a team lead by a lower level.

Maybe, but I am not familiar with setting up leagues.  I'm sure it's no big deal, but I have just never done it.

But yeah.  Some people will always want to be the highest level, some may be fine with anything that is at least their current level, and a few might be fine with anything that is a "zone appropriate" level.  For giant monsters and such, anyway.  TFs are a different animal.

But like I said, I don't really blame them.  I just think that quitting without even checking on the plan is a bit of an overreaction.

[tidge]

"Invite to League" is just like "Invite to Team". The League lead has the additional ability to move characters from one team to another, or to their own team if the league has fewer than 6 teams in it. This is typically done as the mechanism for a league leader to have a character of level 50 leading each team, and to adjust the composition of teams. I recall that there was some adjustments made to League rewards (versus team-in-a-league rewards) relating to badges, I don't know how extensive those changes were and if all of the potential areas where this can make a difference have been addressed. AFAIK most content that more-or-less explicitly requires a league has been adjusted.

 

 

[Heliphyn34u]

On 12/11/2024 at 8:25 PM, mechahamham said:

What I'd really like for Christmas is a 4-person trial. I adore Dr. Kane's and Summer Blockbuster, and I believe I'd still adore them without their awards. I'd love a Christmas Double Feature to play in theaters 3 and 4. Help John McClain kick Hans Gruber off of Nakatomi Tower or assist Kevin McAlister in booby-trapping his house to defeat the burglars. The award doesn't need to be equivalent to an Overwhelming Force IO, but it'd be nice if it was about the same as the award for Lord Winter.

 

 

I like this idea!  Could have it hew closer to Dr. Kane, with a gingerbread house like UltraAlt suggested.  A Christmas double feature would be more complex, and having nods to Die Hard and/or Home Alone would work.  I dunno, maybe in one, you have to fight a yeti and turn it to your side, then climb a tower fighting snowies to get to the top and defeat/throw off a version of the Winter Lord in a suit (like a giant frozen version of Kingpin), then in the other you have to fight a multitude of enemies through a house (gingerbread house or log cabin) and find pieces of a gingerbread man (glowies) which, once assembled, fights at your side throwing icing (water powers) and candy canes (spines powers) against the big boss: the house itself!

 

It would be lots of work to put together, I'm sure, but it would be lots of fun to have a similarly locked-at-4-teammates trial for more mid-range content (level 25-30?  or 30-35?).  And maybe the trial could award a random Winter IO.