HC needs to develop a policy on memorials.

[tidge]

12 minutes ago, Kistulot said:

I would politely request that you leave the discussion so that those who would continue to discuss it to be able to.

 

Is the request that I stop participating in this thread (the one on general policy) because I am disrespectful and derailing, or is there some other reason that applies to me specifically?

[Kistulot]

 

26 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Doesn't matter.  Right now, it's at the sole discretion of the people who are maintaining the game.  I'm sorry that list doesn't include your friend.

 

I am disagreeing with this stance, disagreeing with its backing points, and the options presented to supposedly get around this situation are often either impossible or miss the point entirely.

 

You don't have to see the value of me continuing to discuss this, but I do.

 

21 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Is the request that I stop participating in this thread (the one on general policy) because I am disrespectful and derailing, or is there some other reason that applies to me specifically?

 

It's me saying that if you don't see the value in a conversation, chiming in to say it more than once doesn't present any additional value and you'd be better off doing something else for your own sake.

 

The thought might be more clearly articulated as "I appreciate that you believe at this point this aspect of the discussion holds no more value. I would recommend allowing it to continue without your participation, as others, at least myself do, as I will be continuing this conversation in this direction."

[Rudra]

@Kistulot, at this point, my recommendation to you is to take a step back and give yourself time to grieve. You can always re-engage after.

[Kistulot]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

@Kistulot, at this point, my recommendation to you is to take a step back and give yourself time to grieve. You can always re-engage after.

 

I appreciate your recommendation and concern.

 

However, I would also recommend that if you believe I am simply belligerently grieving and do not have any real points that you simply not engage and report my behavior as abusive.

[Seed22]

2 hours ago, Kistulot said:

 

I'm also going to note that while CoH is still a much smoother community than other MMOs, which tends to be the point, the forum does not represent the full population.

 

There have been continued frustrations with the way moderation has been handled in this, and other threads.

 

It feels difficult to claim that your post is not further indication of this trend.

 

I think I should clarify something here. I am talking about the people who have more or less been eh…hostile I suppose or disingenuous during the entire discussion. They are why I am disenfranchised with this community.

 

 If me talking about how people have been using this thread to just duke it out with one another instead of discussing the idea is worth moderation, well that’d actually be painfully stupid really. 
 

If I’m understanding your idea, it’s to have a memorial for all fallen people going forward? That I think I could agree with. 

[Kistulot]

Just now, Seed22 said:

I think I should clarify something here. I am talking about the people who have more or less been eh…hostile I suppose or disingenuous during the entire discussion. They are why I am disenfranchised with this community.

 

I completely respect that! 🙂 Honestly, I don't blame you from where I sit right now. The 20+ people who showed up with holdtorches however are the community that I'm here to represent, because frankly I don't blame anyone who doesn't see this as worth their time.

 

Unfortunately, I'm a very stubborn woman! 🖤

 

1 minute ago, Seed22 said:

 If me talking about how people have been using this thread to just duke it out with one another instead of discussing the idea is worth moderation, well that’d actually be painfully stupid really. 
 

If I’m understanding your idea, it’s to have a memorial for all fallen people going forward? That I think I could agree with. 

 

No, I completely concur. However I stated things, or however my intent was? Legit? Sorry that I implied that. It would be stupid. It can create additional harsh feelings so I'd recommend tempering it? Because while I agree, that's the kind of talk that can quickly get moderation for being seen as stirring the pot when you're just making a valid point...

 

But I don't think you should be moderated against or anything.

 

If people had one before, there hasn't been any technical reason why it couldn't be done in the future. The reasons why that have been stated are, I feel, insufficient. Favoritism is a problem, so... why not just make sure everyone is respected and valued post life for their efforts to make this game something worth being a part of beyond responding to an LFG message of "ITF lf7m pst"

Thank you for responding!

[Super Atom]

I hate this thread but if the Homecoming team are looking for ideas I'm gonna go ahead and paste some.

 

 

For reference, This is my current in-base memorial for Punchy on everlasting. It does the job but it can always be improved by a couple things, i'm not entirely sure on one of them if its doable.

 

• Customizable place-able NPC to better reflect what they actually looked like.
• A plaque you can add your own text to for people to click (this is the not sure one)
• Maybe with the Place-able customizable NPC we could get an option to have it apply a stone texture over everything to mimic a statue? also not sure about this one
• If customizable NPC's is too much, One that copies your costume when you place it down, preferably with static poses to mimic a hologram or something to indicate it's not trying to be the real person.

[arcane]

23 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

I think I should clarify something here. I am talking about the people who have more or less been eh…hostile I suppose or disingenuous during the entire discussion. They are why I am disenfranchised with this community.

I’ve never seen you in conflict with the forum’s most toxic members. So I don’t see how you’re “disenfranchised”.

[Kistulot]

4 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

I hate this thread but if the Homecoming team are looking for ideas I'm gonna go ahead and paste some.

Sincerely? I cant blame you, and as someone else who's lost someone important to them who played? I am so sorry. I'm sorry for how these topics sound like they've caused you stress and grief.

 

I didn't know Punchy, but they clearly meant a lot to a lot of people.

 

I hope their memory can live on indefinitely.

 

6 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

I hate this thread but if the Homecoming team are looking for ideas I'm gonna go ahead and paste some.

 

 

For reference, This is my current in-base memorial for Punchy on everlasting. It does the job but it can always be improved by a couple things, i'm not entirely sure on one of them if its doable.

 

That is a really awesome tribute--sincerely. 🙂

 

7 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

• Customizable place-able NPC to better reflect what they actually looked like.
• A plaque you can add your own text to for people to click (this is the not sure one)
• Maybe with the Place-able customizable NPC we could get an option to have it apply a stone texture over everything to mimic a statue? also not sure about this one
• If customizable NPC's is too much, One that copies your costume when you place it down, preferably with static poses to mimic a hologram or something to indicate it's not trying to be the real person.

 

Customizable NPCs would be great for us who've lost someone special, and just... think of the base ideas. Seriously. It's endless.

 

Adding anything into the game by default would probably be risky. Even text can inject some bad things. However, it could work like a .ogg file dropped into the right folder in a base: essentially, something that's very easily modded in by user-applied resources thanks to modified base assets, etc.

 

The statues are DEFINITELY just character models with a texture (then made into a solid entity, but you get what I mean) so something like this should, theoretically, be possible... and it would be pretty neat!

 

Honestly, customizable "All Spectrum" NPCs, like the ones used to show off outfits in icon?

 

Hanging a costume is a time honored tradition for heroes. I'd love this.

 

I still feel like all of this should be additional to the continued external memorials, but all of this?

I'm down with this.

 

Again... I am really sorry for your loss, and I hope that over time the pain has gotten a little easier to deal with.

[Kistulot]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’ve never seen you in conflict with the forum’s most toxic members. So I don’t see how you’re “disenfranchised”.

 

Witnessing disruptive behavior is a good way to not want to engage.

 

I'm going to note: look at the original thread I posted.

 

A lot of people basically only posted there because they believed that was a good idea. I cant ascribe intent behind why they don't post anywhere else, but not everyone has the time, endurance, or inclination to continue these interactions.

[tidge]

58 minutes ago, Kistulot said:

 It's me saying that if you don't see the value in a conversation, chiming in to say it more than once doesn't present any additional value and you'd be better off doing something else for your own sake.

 

When did I write this in this thread? If this is some general advice, why quote anyone? It comes across as a form of denial that the reality is something other than what it is.

 

I think the advice from @Rudra to take time to grieve rather than self-cultivate anger and frustration online is not a bad idea. It's been made clear what isn't going to happen, trying to negotiate is another classic stage in the Kübler-Ross model of grieving. I've seen several good ideas presented in lieu of the wish that isn't going to be granted... and I can completely understand why the wish won't be granted, and it doesn't appear from the conversation that I'm the only one.

[Kistulot]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

 

When did I write this in this thread? If this is some general advice, why quote anyone? It comes across as a form of denial that the reality is something other than what it is.

 

I think the advice from @Rudra to take time to grieve rather than self-cultivate anger and frustration online is not a bad idea. It's been made clear what isn't going to happen, trying to negotiate is another classic stage in the Kübler-Ross model of grieving. I've seen several good ideas presented in lieu of the wish that isn't going to be granted... and I can completely understand why the wish won't be granted, and it doesn't appear from the conversation that I'm the only one.

 

Huh, I mighta missclicked on something or the like, or I'm just not seeing it now. I'll be fine with either. Dunno where that came from. I'll cop to that.

 

That said?

 

If I was simply talking nonsense from grief I don't believe that anyone would be agreeing with me besides the similarly grieving. But that has not been the case. Again, the homecoming staff are welcome to dismiss discussion on this topic and make it clear they aren't willing to discuss my responses to their rationale, but until they do, and possibly even after, I intend to continue to carry on discussing this.

 

You can attempt to psychoanalyze my actions, but I'll make it a bit easier for you after I go through the DSM with my therapist tomorrow and get a diagnosis. For the moment, I'd appreciate avoiding that. 🙂

[Greycat]

4 minutes ago, Kistulot said:

If people had one before, there hasn't been any technical reason why it couldn't be done in the future. The reasons why that have been stated are, I feel, insufficient. Favoritism is a problem, so... why not just make sure everyone is respected and valued post life for their efforts to make this game something worth being a part of beyond responding to an LFG message of "ITF lf7m pst"

 

 

Quote

One. This has been asked for before. Just a *general* memorial people can visit, meant to remember *everyone* who's ever been part of the COH family and passed. Having a place to go, a touchstone to sit and remember - even if their names aren't on it, not all would want that, and there's no way of knowing all the names (and, again, the question of "how tall to ride" would come up) - is helpful when we lose a friend. I don't think, in general, there would be all too much outcry against an "In memoriam."

 

There's a reason I put this in the original post.  *It would be helpful.* I know full well how having a place to go and grieve, or even just remember, can help. And how hard *not* having one would be.  (And yet I've been attacked for this in the thread...)

 

To me, it's the first step, no matter what else is decided.

 

It avoids the issues that were brought up - maintenance by the staff. Favoritism, whether real or perceived. The agency of the players who have passed - they don't have a say as to if they are memorialized or not (how many people say "You know, if I die and Homecoming's still active, please put THIS character with THIS costume in THIS location, or close to it?" Or alternately, "Eh, I kind of feel creeped out by the idea off having ghost-me standing around in game.")

 

And it's there for *everyone,* both those who are still there *and* those who have passed. There have been a lot of us. Not all of us mentioned. Not all of us on Homecoming. People who were important on live, people who passed during the "secret server" years, and people who have passed since the game was returned.

 

It doesn't need a list of names. I understand the desire to have one, but that list would never be complete. The Tomb(s) of the Unknown Soldier/Warrior (and other names specific to each country that has this) stands alongside the graves of all those who *are* named. Nobody sees it as a slight or an insult to be what it is. It's an acceptance of and remembrance of losses we don't and can't know or confirm. Those who can't be recovered, but deserve like anyone else to be remembered. Again, this is a first step.

 

And given Widower's comments, no matter what else, it sounds like there's already some openness to the idea among those who *can* implement it. First steps.

 

While that's being done, while that *first step* is being taken? See what else *can* be done. If the HC team feels they can add names after that? Surrounding monuments/walls. Maybe a wall for "Lost during live," another for the time after sunset and/or just didn't start playing again before passing, a third for HC, and a fourth for those we know of who were lost but were on another server. (As an example.) And "What can be done in bases," since there are plenty of clubs, lairs, etc. where people can do something more personal to remember those people, no matter *what* else the dev team feels they can do or is appropriate publicly. That's a whole discussion, set of suggestions, etc. to have.

 

And if I can get personal here. I'm coming up, this january, on the twentieth anniversary of my dad's death. This year was a decade for my mom. My wife died six years ago. I have no place to go to remember them, for various reasons. I *know* damn well how important *having a place to go and remember* is. How having at least *some* place can help heal. At least one someone here accused me of making this thread out of a lack of empathy. It's just the opposite. *I do want everyone to have a place to go to remember.* That was the entire point of having that section in the original post. Getting a general *place* for everyone to remember is important to me. Is it somewhat generic? Yes. Does that make it more likely and less problematic to get in - and thus *be there for people who need it?* Also yes.

 

First steps.

[Kistulot]

If your dad, or your mom, played the game then I would be pushing every bit as hard for both of them.

 

Suggesting possibilities that even those suggesting in authority don't believe they can guarantee is not a satisfactory first step.

 

We've done it before.

 

We can do it again.

[tidge]

7 minutes ago, Kistulot said:

If I was simply talking nonsense from grief I don't believe that anyone would be agreeing with me besides the similarly grieving. But that has not been the case.

 

Again, I think the point was missed: The favoritism angle, and whatever motivates "agreement" was literally the first reason mentioned in the stickied/recommended post for avoiding granting your specific wish. No one in a position to even consider granting your wish has called out your posts on this topic as nonsense; to make that claim is dramatic.

 

12 minutes ago, Kistulot said:

Again, the homecoming staff are welcome to dismiss discussion on this topic and make it clear they aren't willing to discuss my responses to their rationale, but until they do, and possibly even after, I intend to continue to carry on discussing this.

 

Why, when given a pretty direct response that your wish is not going to be granted, with rationale, was your response to a user responding to that rationale...

  

2 hours ago, Kistulot said:

I would politely request that you leave the discussion so that those who would continue to discuss it to be able to.

 

That bit reads like a "STFU, I don't want to read what you have to say." We aren't owed a dev response to our responses to their response, especially not when it was made from a point of clarity that many users appear to have understood. I'm not writing for any of the powers that be, but the response we got is fair and just, and sustainable going forward.

 

There is a very short list of (pretty minor) world changes I'd like TPTB to make, and for those, TPTB have made it clear that not only won't they make the changes but that there won't be discussion about it, for reasons. I don't know what those reasons are, but I can guess. Ultimately it doesn't matter because that one part of the game won't change, unless and until TPTB decide it will change. I can live without knowing the precise rationale, but in this very thread the rationale for not granting this specific wish was provided, which was not the case for the item I'm referring to.  That horse, and this one, deserves no more beating.

[Kistulot]

10 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Again, I think the point was missed: The favoritism angle, and whatever motivates "agreement" was literally the first reason mentioned in the stickied/recommended post for avoiding granting your specific wish. No one in a position to even consider granting your wish has called out your posts on this topic as nonsense; to make that claim is dramatic.

 

...and I've discussed why I feel the favoritism angle is not a helpful angle because it's outright already being shown.

 

10 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

We aren't owed a dev response to our responses to their response, especially not when it was made from a point of clarity that many users appear to have understood. I'm not writing for any of the powers that be, but the response we got is fair and just, and sustainable going forward.

 

We may not be owed them, but when one is not given addressing concerns, and those concerns continue to exist? Sorry, I'm going to keep addressing them until they are and I don't care if I don't have a piece of paper that says 'I.O.U. One Dev Response.'

[wjrasmussen]

Ok, too much work to change the system.

 

How about having an NPC somewhere, that has continuous dialog of these player names.

[Kistulot]

Just now, wjrasmussen said:

How about having an NPC somewhere, that has continuous dialog of these player names.

 

They'd need to add that in, too, wouldn't they? I'm not saying it would be impossible, but I feel like part of the issue with these 'generic one size fits all' is that it inherently just becomes a blur.

 

The blatant favoritism showed to those who died before HC is very easily rectified.

[tidge]

1 minute ago, Kistulot said:

 

...and I've discussed why I feel the favoritism angle is not a helpful angle because it's outright already being shown.

 

  

19 hours ago, Kistulot said:

Favoritism is pretty easily solved by just adding people in as they're requested, or enabling some means for a person to request it in case of their untimely death.

 

This isn't sustainable.

 

1 minute ago, Kistulot said:

The blatant favoritism showed to those who died before HC is very easily rectified.

 

Reading between the lines: It reads to me more like some of those NPCs were implemented without considering a more complete set of future outcomes... and thus the "hard pause" on future implementations.

 

[Ghost]

4 minutes ago, Kistulot said:

 

They'd need to add that in, too, wouldn't they? I'm not saying it would be impossible, but I feel like part of the issue with these 'generic one size fits all' is that it inherently just becomes a blur.

 

The blatant favoritism showed to those who died before HC is very easily rectified.

So, adding in something for every person that ever played/plays that passes away, won’t also become just a blur?

 

 

[Kistulot]

Just now, Ghost said:

So, adding in something for every person that ever played/plays that passes away, won’t also become just a blur?

 

A list of names is a list.

 

Character models are not.

 

Text in MMOs is notoriously overlooked. It's a pretty common joke that no one knows half the text for anything, and the joke is there because it holds some truth to it.

 

Let's go with, say, putting the NPCs in Echo Plaza, a place that's largely unused besides as a dayjob spot or rare costume contests.

 

Let's say 10% of the currently online population dies every year who actively has someone wanting a memorial, no questions asked. That feels a bit much, even with our pop only being 1,537, but let's go with it for the sake of argument.

 

153 NPCs on a single map ain't something this game struggles with.

 

It wouldn't be a blur, and it would mean more than text.

 

Alternatively, what's being done in the Echo maps, IE, Echo:Atlas, that couldn't fit an influx of NPCs?

 

There are solutions to this that show the same respect for HC's fallen that was shown for Virtue's.

[Rudra]

30 minutes ago, Kistulot said:

We may not be owed them, but when one is not given addressing concerns, and those concerns continue to exist? Sorry, I'm going to keep addressing them until they are and I don't care if I don't have a piece of paper that says 'I.O.U. One Dev Response.'

Except the devs did give you a response and the devs explained why. Your incapability or unwillingness to accept the response, denying it addresses the underlying issues it was obviously meant to address, comes across as "That was the wrong answer, devs. Now give me the correct one."

[Captain Valiant]

3 minutes ago, Kistulot said:

 

A list of names is a list.

 

Character models are not..

Or, perhaps, "life sized" posters in the form of a screenshot of the honouree(s) in a gallery-like setting, say, along the walls of Echo Plaza; or even a gallery in its own zone that is accessible by tram? Just thoughts.

 

[Kistulot]

Just now, Rudra said:

Except the devs did give you a response and the devs explained why. Your incapability or unwillingness to accept the response, denying it addresses the underlying issues it was obviously meant to address, comes across as "That was the wrong answer, devs. Now give me the correct one."

 

They did not respond to my response, and I consider that unsatisfactory.

 

They explained their points and I countered them.

 

If you think that there's nothing more to be said then you're probably better off doing anything else with your time than posting to tell me I'm wasting my time when it's probably pretty clear that's not going to sway me.

[Kistulot]

1 minute ago, Captain Valiant said:

Or, perhaps, "life sized" posters in the form of a screenshot of the honouree(s) in a gallery-like setting, say, along the walls of Echo Plaza; or even a gallery in its own zone that is accessible by tram? Just thoughts.

 

 

...holy crap you do this and you make them base items and I'd pay for this.