DEFCON 5: Defender vs Controller - Which is the Better Support AT?

[Dark Current]

Tearing open an old wound with this one, folks. We all remember the OG argument from City of Heroes...

 

"Defenders are better for a team because of superior buff numbers! Their blasts add dps!"

 

"Controllers are better because controls synergize with the buffs! Their dps is better with Containment!"

 

/jranger

 

Ok, I know what the numbers say on paper, but I want to know what actual, in-game action reveals. I don't think anyone has ever attempted an honest-to-goodness comparison of these two ATs. So, I am setting out to do just that... or at least provide some empirical data to chew on.

 

I therefore bring you...

 

 

DEFCON 5 is a video series that will compare 5 different defenders to 5 different controllers, with head-to-head pairings built around the same buff set. I will show you the builds, run a solo mission to discuss the character's tactics, and then a series of team missions to gather test data for analysis. 

 

Test Parameters:

• 5 Defenders vs 5 Controllers
• 5 Shared Support Sets – buff and debuff
• 5-Mission Runs (54x8, random map, escort only) vs 5 different factions
• 5-man Teams with no other DEFCON
• 5 Stat Analysis (completion time, foe defeats, ally defeats, ally close calls, damage out:in)
• 5 Star YT Opinion Poll for performance evaluations

And just to stir up some controversy at the end, the AT with the 'most points' based on Stats and Votes will be declared the Superior Support Archetype!

Check out the Introduction video here:

 

Need more Build and Playtest Videos?

50 - 50 Showcase

20/20 Rewind

 

Edited Thursday at 01:10 AM by Dark Current

[Dark Current]

Starting at DEFCON 5, we have Electrical Affinity!

 

 

DEFCON Level 5 pits an Elec / Elec / Elec Defender vs. a Plant / Elec / Earth Controller in a no-holds barred who is better at protecting their team challenge!

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Starting in the Blue Corner... an E³ Defender, The Ampere Avenger!

 

MIDS Build: 

Ampere Avenger - Defender (Electrical Affinity - Electrical Blast).mbd

 

 Build Discussion and Solo Showcase Video:

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And in the Red Corner.... a Controller of primal fury, Ostara, the Spring Maiden! 

 

MIDS Build: 

Ostara - Controller (Plant Control).mbd

 

 

Build Discussion and Solo Showcase Video:

 

FORTHCOMING

 

 

Edited Thursday at 01:20 AM by Dark Current

[Maelwys]

Interesting take on the comparison format. My money is on the Controllers, especially if you're running with teams of randos at x8 on powersets like Plant and Arsenal which have hefty AOE CC and damage.

 

My take on the debate (is it still a thing these days?) is that Defenders are usually more valuable to an optimized team and Controllers more valuable to an unoptimized one. Defender's greater -Res Debuff strength plus low animation time attacks (which can often produce decent DPA via Procs) makes things faster. Controller's range of CC lockdown effects (and the occasional immortal tanky pets) makes things safer. The only buff/debuff sets that IMO always work better on a Controller are Kinetics (as getting the team to the damage cap generally takes 2x Fulcrum Shifts regardless of the AT) and Dark (because Affinity is just plain better than Miasma).

Whilst there's also an argument to be made that AoE immobilizes are required to keep things in Debuff patches and/or clumped for AoE attacks, IMO as long as none of your powers have KB effects and the team has a competent Tank or AoE -RunSpeed effects that's usually superfluous. And let's face it, on high end teams things just become a Steamrolling race, so hitting the same mob twice (to set up and then leverage Containment) hardly ever applies.

 

All that said, I imagine Corruptors would like a word, as Scourge is a vastly more useful inherent for hardmode teaming than Vigilance 😜

 

Edited Wednesday at 07:47 AM by Maelwys

[wednesdaywoe]

I'm a shameless Defender stan, and my opinion cannot be swayed by mere evidence. Regardless, I look forward to your experiment--you have your work cut out for you! 😊

[JJDrakken]

Defender has higher values for the powers.

[tidge]

15 hours ago, Maelwys said:

My take on the debate (is it still a thing these days?) is that Defenders are usually more valuable to an optimized team and Controllers more valuable to an unoptimized one.

 

^ I think this is the closest to my take. ^ I think it is especially true if the rest of the team has made build choices knowing in advance what a specific Defender is going to bring.

 

I think there is some content where one pulls ahead of the other, assuming both have reasonably smart builds... for example, a low level TF/SF is much easier with some Defenders than most Controllers... if the Defender has team buffs. I was on a recent Posi 1 where the Defender made all the difference, and the (exemplared) Controllers didn't die, but at that level they weren't bringing that much to the team.

 

For some builds I have, within play it might be pretty hard to know if the character was a Defender or a Controller if the observer wasn't familiar with the primary/secondary.

[biostem]

58 minutes ago, JJDrakken said:

Defender has higher values for the powers.

Sure, but the question is whether their blasts provide enough additional DPS or utility vs what a controller's primary set has to offer...

[Onlyasandwich]

At very low levels defenders get their big buffs online sooner. Low level controllers still struggle with damage and a useful control rotation. Not nearly as much a deal these days with the level requirements decreased on powers.

 

At higher levels a single controller can more consistently provide safety to themselves and a team than a single defender, and are now contributing meaningful damage.

 

If you are optimizing for the perfect team there is higher potential choosing the right defenders. 

 

Both are so powerful if stacking a lot on a team that the difference hardly matters.

 

 

 

[JJDrakken]

28 minutes ago, biostem said:

Sure, but the question is whether their blasts provide enough additional DPS or utility vs what a controller's primary set has to offer...

 

With their Defender Recipes. Yes.  They can add PBAOE Heal & Absorb.  Also majority their blasts have secondaries that will be helpful over all.  Be it -Def, -To Hit, -Res, etc....

 

While Controller primaries have those as well.  There damage is limited, till they can get containment.  There a reason when 8 Defenders get together they melt a TF/SF/Trial faster then 8 Controllers.

[Dark Current]

Ampere Avenger - Team Mission Video:

 

 

 

Ostara - Team Mission Video:

 

Forthcoming

 

 

Edited yesterday at 02:52 AM by Dark Current

[Without_Pause]

On 12/17/2024 at 9:40 PM, Dark Current said:

DEFCON Level 5 pits an Elec / Elec / Elec Defender vs. a Plant / Elec / Earth Controller in a no-holds barred who is better at protecting their team challenge!

This isn't a fair comparison. Elec Blast simply doesn't have something which can compare to Seeds. I would rather see two full Elec builds.

 

I think the comment about Controllers being better for subpar teams feels like the correct answer. In terms of sheer support, I never felt like a Defender came close to my Earth/storm, and I played a lot of Defenders on Live. 

[Psiphon]

IMO this depends on the team makeup and the skill of the controller.

If the team can survive with just buffs/debuffs then theoretically the controls are wasted, if survival is an issue then the controller is best.

Also is there a tank to group the mobs, a bad controller could be a hindrance.

Personally I look at the number of Corrupters as a guide for how good a team will be - nice balance of damage, control and buff/debuffs.

[Icono04]

At the risk of preaching to the choir, I agree with the sentiment that on a struggling team, a Controller makes more of a (positive) difference than a defender. But on a well-functioning team - whether the well-functioning is due to the right mix of AT's or to the players' skill level - a Defender adds the most value to the team.

[Uncle Shags]

We need a statistician! 

 

I think you're right that eventually, over time, given the randomness from multiple missions and teammates, the numbers will start to be clear.  Speed, safety, etc. 

 

My concern is that it would take more than 5 missions to reach the randomness you need for good data.  Maybe a lot more than 5.

 

But I don't know. 

 

Paging the statistician!

[Dark Current]

3 hours ago, Uncle Shags said:

We need a statistician! 

 

I think you're right that eventually, over time, given the randomness from multiple missions and teammates, the numbers will start to be clear.  Speed, safety, etc. 

 

My concern is that it would take more than 5 missions to reach the randomness you need for good data.  Maybe a lot more than 5.

 

But I don't know. 

 

Paging the statistician!

 

That's the idea! Generate enough data, and actual trends will show through the noise.

 

Speaking of Stats, here are the first batch from my run with Ampere Avenger during the above-linked Team Trials video. These are the numbers and calculations (rates and indexes) I will compare with my /Electrical Affinity controller, Ostara.

 

Then, these numbers will be combined with the other 4 defenders' numbers and compared to the 5 controllers' to see if any patterns emerge.

 

This is a work in progress, so I'm sure I'll change lenses as I get more data.

 

Ampere Avenger

Mission Analysis

• Mission 1* (Carnies escort) from 19:06 – 19:10, and 19:12 – 19:19 = 13 minutes with 3 teammates (combined 2 short escorts into a single stat chunk)
• Mission 2 (Council) from 19:22 – 19:32 = 11 minutes with 4 teammates
• Mission 3 (Council escort) from 19:36 – 19:46 = 11 minutes with 5 teammates
• Mission 4 (Arachnos ambush) from 19:48 – 20:00 = 13 minutes with 5 teammates
• Mayhem (PPD and LB, Holoman) from 20:03 – 20:30 = 28 minutes with 5 teammates

Total Time – 76 minutes

 

DEFCON 5 Stats:

Rates = per minute calculations; Indexes = per teammate calculations

1. Survivability

Total Personal Defeats = 3

Mission	Personal Defeats	Time	Teammates	Survivability Rate	Survivability Index
1	0	13	3	0.00	0.00
2	1	11	4	0.09	0.25
3	0	11	5	0.00	0.00
4	1	13	5	0.08	0.20
mayhem	1	28	5	0.04	0.20
Total à	3	76		0.04	0.13	ß AVG

 

 

2. Risk

Total Ally Defeats = 16

Mission	Ally Defeats	Time	Teammates	Risk Rate	Risk Index
1	1	13	3	0.08	0.33
2	3	11	4	0.27	0.75
3	1	11	5	0.09	0.20
4	4	13	5	0.31	0.80
mayhem	7	28	5	0.25	1.40
Total à	16	76		0.20	0.70	ß AVG

 

 

3. Lethality

Total Foes Killed = 207

Mission	Kills	Time	Teammates	Lethality Rate	Lethality Index
1	32	13	3	2.46	10.67
2	50	11	4	4.55	12.50
3	32	11	5	2.91	6.40
4	19	13	5	1.46	3.80
mayhem	74	28	5	2.64	14.80
Total à	207	76		2.80	9.63	ß AVG

 

 

4. Threat

Total Damage Output = 251,658

Personal Damage Output

Mission:	1	2	3	4	Mayhem	Attack Total:
Ball Lightning	4216	3287	2469	3864	8374	22208
Charged Bolts	1255	828	620	892	2866	6461
Ion Judgement Direct	223	700	896	1025	2570	5413
Ion Judgement Jumps	6185	6038	10789	10967	37379	71358
Lightning Bolt	1751	1857	1011	1941	4491	11051
Preemptive Interface	503	435	317	532	1154	2942
Shocking Bolt	134	115	110	100	280	739
Short Circuit	1923	2426	1424	2006	5912	13690
Tesla Cage	236	273	255	153	870	1787
Thunder Strike	128	0	137	461	565	1290
Thunderous Blast	5165	3634	3385	4136	6449	22769
Zapp	2986	2718	2336	3188	6524	17751
Mission TOTAL:	24704	22311	23749	29263	77433	177459

 

Pet Damage Output

Mission:	1	2	3	4	Mayhem	Pet Total:
Builder	0	4348	2639	0	6660	13647
Dismantler	0	13749	8287	0	26326	48363
Voltaic Sentinel	1874	3165	1292	2583	3275	12189
Mission TOTAL:	1874	21261	12219	2583	36261	74198

 

Combined Damage Output

Mission	DMG out	Time	Teammates	Threat Rate	Threat Index
1	26578	13	3	2044	8859
2	43572	11	4	3961	10893
3	35967	11	5	3270	7193
4	31847	13	5	2450	6369
mayhem	113694	28	5	4060	22739
Total à	251658	76		3157	11211	ß AVG

 

 

5. Resilience

Total Damage Taken = 53,590

Personal Damage Taken

Mission:	1	2	3	4	Mayhem	Type Total
Cold	0	0	28	0	0	28
Energy	245	54	0	2843	7956	11099
Fire	223	2021	2486	230	3137	8098
Lethal	49	536	788	224	3926	5524
Negative Energy	174	7054	3668	0	0	10896
Psionic	3319	63	71	6549	1404	11407
Smashing	512	238	167	896	926	2738
Toxic	0	0	0	3494	306	3800
Mission Total:	4522	9967	7209	14236	17656	53590

 

Mission	DMG in	Time	Teammates	Resilience Rate	Resilience Index
1	4522	13	3	348	1507
2	9967	11	4	906	2492
3	7209	11	5	655	1442
4	14236	13	5	1095	2847
mayhem	17656	28	5	631	3531
Total à	53590	76		727	2364	ß AVG

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Dark Current

[Dark Current]

And here is my Reaction and Analysis video of the Team Trials. I discuss these stats in detail there as well as point out key moments from the missions that produced the results.