Null da Gull Knockback

[FupDup]

Most single-target KB is controllable to a degree, but AOE is where it can get hairy. I kinda wish that most AOEs were just KD by default and if the player wanted to change that then the onus would be on them to slot KB enhancements. Yes, this could/would lead to people who make that choice getting ostracized, but that already happens in reverse for people who don't slot KB->KD. At least this way, people who aren't aware of this dynamic are less likely to be affected by it (unless they happen to slot a KB enhancement unknowingly). 

 

Beyond that, for Energy Blast in particular, I wish it were revamped to allow more control over when the KB happens. One possibility would be to reduce the KBs to KD by default (at least on AOEs) and then make the Aim power grant increased KB magnitude for a few moments (kind of like the other unique Aim/Build Up powers, i.e. Charge Up gives End Mod). Or there's any other number of ways to execute it, really. It might also be interesting to revamp the Explosive Blast power into a mini vortex (rename to Implosive Blast?) that sucks enemies in like Axe Cyclone, to help offset the disruption created by other powers in the set. 

[Snarky]

11 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I missed Lum's linked post. If a dev has already said a global change ain't happen then it ain't.

 

More damage on KB'd foes would be welcome, but I'd have to see just how much more damage it is.

 

And again for me if they do nothing, that's fine. I have no problem with KB.

It is the first response to this thread.  But, as i so eloquently pointed out, the reasons are basically 1) i like KB 2) people shouldnt want to kill 3) no one is happy anyways.  It is a Dev post worthy of a 14 year old on a pepsi buzz. 🐝 

[Stormwalker]

On 1/7/2025 at 8:10 PM, Snarky said:

Everyone has an opinion.  And i appreciate the feedback.  I do.  
 

i am honestly shocked there is so much pro knockback votes.  3 is obvs a joke.  But peeps against option 2???   Interesting indeed

I am against option 2 because I don't want to join teams on my energy blaster only to get kicked for not being willing to turn on that toggle.

 

Back on live, people used to try to get me kicked off TF's just for being energy/energy, before we had done a single fight.  Funnily enough, once the battles started and they realized I knew what I was doing, the complaints quickly stopped.  Thankfully, the ones doing the complaining were not the leaders.

 

So, I'm pretty sure if such a toggle existed there would be players who would demand it be used. 

 

Granted, the HC community as  a whole seems more mature than the community on Live was (probably because we are all older than we were then), so I expect there would be fewer of those players, but the problem remains - if you normalize KB -> KD, some players will use this as a justification for not using KB -> KD being "wrong".

 

For reference, on my energy blaster, I slot KB -> KD in Nova, and ONLY Nova.  And Power Thrust is slotted for KB because it is my self-defense button.

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, FupDup said:

Explosive Blast power into a mini vortex (rename to Implosive Blast?) that sucks enemies in like Axe Cyclone

 

That would be cool. I just figured, to kill two birds with one stone, it should be Power Push that gets the Axe Cyclone treatment, in order to make it a desirable pick. Call it Power Pull, or call it Energy Vortex.

 

It could just be a location based field, or I thought maybe make it react to your other powers. While Energy Vortex (a tag on the target of your Power Push that lasts, let's say, 20 seconds) is active, all your Energy Blast attacks cause nearby enemies to be pulled toward the target of the Vortex INSTEAD of their regular KB effects.

[Stormwalker]

23 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

That would be cool. I just figured, to kill two birds with one stone, it should be Power Push that gets the Axe Cyclone treatment, in order to make it a desirable pick. Call it Power Pull, or call it Energy Vortex.

 

It could just be a location based field, or I thought maybe make it react to your other powers. While Energy Vortex (a tag on the target of your Power Push that lasts, let's say, 20 seconds) is active, all your Energy Blast attacks cause nearby enemies to be pulled toward the target of the Vortex INSTEAD of their regular KB effects.

 

I like Explosive Blast the way it is.

 

I don't care what they do with Power Push, since I don't take that power.

 

Also, y'know, some of us play concept characters and changes like people are suggesring don't necessarily play well with existing character concepts.

 

Energy Blast as a ser is conceptually themed around concussive blasts.  If you start making the powers do things that aren't consistent with that theme, you're messing with a lot of players' concepts and character themes and some of them are likely to get upser.

 

There is no need to change Energy Blast.  It's fine as it is.  The KB is one of the defining characteristics of the set, and that is as it should be.

[Super Atom]

I love to grief every team im ever on so i can roleplay my latest OC

 

Don't change knockback. You're just trying to deny us the right to absolutely decimate clear times and AOE's

[tidge]

12 hours ago, Snarky said:

It is the first response to this thread.  But, as i so eloquently pointed out, the reasons are basically 1) i like KB 2) people shouldnt want to kill 3) no one is happy anyways.  It is a Dev post worthy of a 14 year old on a pepsi buzz. 🐝 

 

This isn't exactly a fair summary of the (somewhat deep inside the linked thread's) 'dev post'.

 

In that post, I did agree with the general comment that some power sets ought to have a feel to them, beyond "lol enemy green go down". I don't think the (admittedly, in that post) casual comment relating to 'maximize defeats with minimum effort' (my wording) is 100% on point for the discussion, except of course that such thinking is almost certainly the source of a majority of players complaints... just as it is for "AoE controls leave enemies separated" and "Teleport foe stole my target", etc.

[Snarky]

32 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

This isn't exactly a fair summary of the (somewhat deep inside the linked thread's) 'dev post'.

 

In that post, I did agree with the general comment that some power sets ought to have a feel to them, beyond "lol enemy green go down". I don't think the (admittedly, in that post) casual comment relating to 'maximize defeats with minimum effort' (my wording) is 100% on point for the discussion, except of course that such thinking is almost certainly the source of a majority of players complaints... just as it is for "AoE controls leave enemies separated" and "Teleport foe stole my target", etc.

being able to defeat foes is why most people game.  okay, most introverts.  there are costume contests, social groups, yada yada.  but.... it is a murder hobos world.  

 

yes, knockback is really cool.  AND almost always makes everyone's life (including the user) much more difficult.  have falling damage (how far knocked back = KBxrange extra damage) then we can talk.  otherwise it is a true crap mitigation tactic that looks cool.  

 

yes, i know i am not converting that Dev to my way of thinking.  but i do not try to convince idiots.  waste of my damn time.

 

knockback is bad, m'kay?  it slows the game down AND reduces the fun of anyone who is not doing the knockback.  everyone knows it.  will i convince someone with the "truth and justice" on their side (and the power gripped tightly in a sweaty fist)  no.  will not stop me from pointing out the stupidity of it all from time to time.

[ZacKing]

18 hours ago, Luminara said:

I see that some (most?) of the people arguing haven't read the developer post that I linked, in which he/she not only states that the team doesn't like the idea of uniform KB->KD, but goes on to outline their preferred method of dealing with the situation.

 

Or notice that three of the four things he/she outlined have been implemented.

 

And that the fourth thing is exactly what some of you have mentioned wanting, bonus damage on knocked foes.

 

I read the post back when it was first made.  I disagreed with it entirely back then and I still entirely disagree with it now.  It's essentially saying "I like KB, so tough."  That's fine and there's nothing wrong with that.  It's their server and they can do whatever they want, and we just have to live with it.  We don't have any say in what goes on here and our opinions don't hold much weight, if any at all.  Again, nothing wrong with that.  HC can do whatever they like here.

 

I just disagree fundamentally with how KB is implemented in that it doesn't take into consideration how it affects team play.  Also, being worried about people with KB getting "ostracized" into being forced to turn on a toggle doesn't make much sense, given that people are already "ostracized" for any number of reasons for things like Group Fly, Speed Boost, Sonic Resonance, brightly colored powers, Fold Space etc.  Singling out KB as a concern for ostracizing is a bit silly and doesn't make any sense.  I also think the idea of adding powers that help corral knocked back foes (see Fold Space) is totally bizarre.  They're so concerned with a minor increase in DPS by changing KB to KD,  but then add stuff like Fold Space that exponentially increases AoE DPS?  It's also a very convoluted way to fix the problem in my opinion, not to mention causing all kinds of headaches and bad feelings on teams when mobs are teleported away from them.

 

Seems to me it would have been simpler to just add a way for people to select KB or KD or to toggle between them, but that's just me.  The folks running the show here are of course welcome to make whatever changes they feel are appropriate. 

[Grouchybeast]

12 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

Also, y'know, some of us play concept characters and changes like people are suggesring don't necessarily play well with existing character concepts.

 

Energy Blast as a ser is conceptually themed around concussive blasts.  If you start making the powers do things that aren't consistent with that theme, you're messing with a lot of players' concepts and character themes and some of them are likely to get upser.

 

There is no need to change Energy Blast.  It's fine as it is.  The KB is one of the defining characteristics of the set, and that is as it should be.

 

This is where I am on Energy Blast, basically.  There are so many other blaster primaries.  We have power effect recolouring that expands those sets into many more themes and concepts.  If you don't like KB and don't want to take the already existing option of slotting KB->KD enhancements, the answer is to take a set that doesn't do KB!

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

This is where I am on Energy Blast, basically.  There are so many other blaster primaries.  We have power effect recolouring that expands those sets into many more themes and concepts.  If you don't like KB and don't want to take the already existing option of slotting KB->KD enhancements, the answer is to take a set that doesn't do KB!

maybe you are sincere.  but i find posts like this, and the one you quoted, disingenuous.  

 

i want an energy blaster, with that "look" and those powers.  not Rad blast, with different powers and an entirely different "look" recolored blue and red.  i just do not want knockback, and i do not want to pay a 1 slot tax on every power.  but my concept gets the "tough crap" treatment, whereas your two concepts are apparently "sacred" even though the change i suggested would affect you.... not in the damn least.

[ZacKing]

15 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

Also, y'know, some of us play concept characters and changes like people are suggesring don't necessarily play well with existing character concepts.

 

Energy Blast as a ser is conceptually themed around concussive blasts.  If you start making the powers do things that aren't consistent with that theme, you're messing with a lot of players' concepts and character themes and some of them are likely to get upser.

 

If it's an option to choose between KB or KD, your concept isn't affected at all.  You can use the effect of your choice and others can use the effect they choose. 

[Super Atom]

As long as i can still legally grief other players with my energy/storm cor, we have a deal. Nothing is standing in any patches or auras or aoes if i can help it.

 

 

🕊️

[Stormwalker]

58 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

If it's an option to choose between KB or KD, your concept isn't affected at all.  You can use the effect of your choice and others can use the effect they choose. 

 

The specific comment I was replying to here was one specifically suggesting changing the way certain Energy Blast powers work - i.e. replacing the KB with other effects.

 

So, no, in that case, it isn't.

[Wavicle]

This is why I think modifying Power Push into some kind of utility to minimize KB problems is a good way to go. Those who like the set as it is don't currently take Power Push (almost no one does), so changing it won't affect them, but it will give an option for those who do.

Most other powersets combos only have a couple of KB powers and can use KB>KD enhancements if they want.

PBs are just SOL. 😕 More of their powers should probably be KD by default.

[Stormwalker]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

maybe you are sincere.  but i find posts like this, and the one you quoted, disingenuous.  

 

i want an energy blaster, with that "look" and those powers.  not Rad blast, with different powers and an entirely different "look" recolored blue and red.  i just do not want knockback, and i do not want to pay a 1 slot tax on every power.  but my concept gets the "tough crap" treatment, whereas your two concepts are apparently "sacred" even though the change i suggested would affect you.... not in the damn least.

 

I'm frankly offended at you calling my response (the one Grouchybeast was quoting) disingenuous.

 

disingenuous /dĭs″ĭn-jĕn′yoo͞-əs/

adjective

1. Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating.
2. Pretending to be unaware or unsophisticated; faux-naïf.
3. Unaware or uninformed; naive.

To be blunt, I was completely candid about my opinion.  As I said, "I like Energy Blast the way it is."  Do note that the comment I was replying to there was one that was, in fact, specific to Energy Blast, and was specifically suggesting changes to the set (to Explosive Blast and to Power Push, in particular).  I am opposed to changing the set.  Period.

 

I am also opposed to the KB to KD toggle, and I've already stated my reason for that, in a different comment than the one that was quoted by Grouchybeast.

 

You can say you disagree with me all you want and I will not take offense at that.  You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine.

 

But suggesting that I am in some way misrepresenting my opinion just because it's a viewpoint you don't agree with (or possibly don't understand, since I get the impression that you truly do not grasp why this is important to me) is out of bounds.

Let me put this in different terms.

 

I'd rate my degree of opposition to changing the Energy Blast set at a 10 on a 1-10 scale.   I'm about as violently opposed to that idea as I can possibly be about something in a video game.

• If the knockback in Energy Blast powers was replaced by other effects as the person I was replying to was suggesting, I would retire my Energy Blaster, because her character concept would no longer work.  It depends on her powers being "projection of blasts of focused light and kinetic force".   Which is to say, concussive blasts.  This is a character I'm very passionate about, for reasons:
  • She's been with me a very long time.  I originally created her on Live around Issue 5 or so.
  • She's also the very first character i created on Homecoming when I started playing here.
  • She's my favorite character concept I've ever created, and a character I've written fiction for (some bits of which are even posted on the Roleplaying forum here).  Her character name is my global name on Torchbearer.
• In summary, changing the knockback in the Energy Blast set would actually cause me to stop playing my favorite character.

 

By contrast, I'd rate my opposition to a KB -> KD toggle as about a 5 or 6 out of 10.  I don't want it, and I'll argue against it, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.  I'd just be unhappy with it.

• As I've said, I'm concerned about the normalization of KB -> KD causing players to start booting people from teams again the way sometimes happened back on Live.
  • This concern is based on my own personal experiences playing an Energy Blaster on Live.
  • I haven't run into this problem on HC... yet.  But I've had enough experiences in enough different online games that I am betting that if turning off KB was a toggle, you'd start seeing players insisting on other players using that toggle when joining teams.
  • I don't want to be told how to play by someone else.  I know how to use Knockback properly.  I don't go scattering the spawn all over the place, because I'm not an idiot.  Also, I have Hover on my Energy Blaster, and proper positioning plus Hover enables you to turn KB into KD without needing a toggle for it (or slotting for it) in most situations (and in the situations where the ceiling is too low for that, like cave maps, there are lots of convenient walls to slam enemies into.
  • I sure as Hell don't want to give up the KB in Power Thrust, which is my "get out of my face" button, just because someone doesn't trust me to manage my KB correctly.

These are my feelings on the subject, candid and raw.  You can think I'm wrong, but don't say I'm misrepresenting my opinion.

 

Also, speaking of disingenuous, I find the statement that KD is equally effective as mitigation to KB to be that.  Because enemies get up faster from KD than they do from KB, and also KB pushes enemies out of melee range (which is why I have Power Thrust slotted for KB - if a Rikti with a giant sword that will take half my health in one hit is in my face, I don't just want him on the floor, I want him out of melee range!  I have soft-capped ranged defense - he can shoot at me all he wants, but I don't want him swinging that sword at me.

 

Anyway, sorry for being long-winded, but as noted, I'm a bit offended and that tends to lead to rants.

 

Edit: Fixed a wrong word that changed the meaning of a sentence a whole lot.

Edited January 10 by Stormwalker

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, Stormwalker said:

Anyway, sorry for being long-winded, but as noted, I'm a bit offended and that tends to lead to rants.

you're forgiven.  i did not read most of it.

 

i did zero in on the fact you are moderately against the option.  i thank you for your honest opinion.

 

you do realize that the KB-->KD thing is already in the game?  of course you do.  and that players already hate Knockback?  hmmm mmm.  ok, just some thoughts.

[Stormwalker]

20 minutes ago, Snarky said:

you're forgiven.  i did not read most of it.

 

i did zero in on the fact you are moderately against the option.  i thank you for your honest opinion.

 

you do realize that the KB-->KD thing is already in the game?  of course you do.  and that players already hate Knockback?  hmmm mmm.  ok, just some thoughts.

 

Yes, I'm aware.   As I've already said in this thread, I DO slot KB -> KD in Nova.  Because Nova's omnidirectional KB is actually pretty difficult to make effective use of (there are ways, including jousting and Hover, but it's tricky) so I slot KB -> KD in Nova as a minor concession to practicality).

 

I also slot KB -> KD in Shockwave on my Claws scrappers and Brutes, for the reason that it gives Shockwave much better synergy with Spin., and I plan to slot it in Hand Clap on my SS Tanker when she actually takes Hand Clap for equally obvious reasons.

 

But since you said that you didn't read most of my comment, I suppose you missed the part where I said that my concern was of giving players the ammunition of "it's easy to turn your KB off, so you should just do it," and not wanting to be told how to play.

 

Actually, I will note there is one minor change I wouldn't mind making at all to Energy Blast, because it would still make perfect sense with Energy Blast's concussive blasts concept.  Why not turn Explosive Blast into KnockUp instead of KnockBack?  Just move the power fx down to floor level and have it blast everyone up into the air?

Edited January 10 by Stormwalker

[Snarky]

9 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

Actually, I will note there is one minor change I wouldn't mind making at all to Energy Blast, because it would still make perfect sense with Energy Blast's concussive blasts concept.  Why not turn Explosive Blast into KnockUp instead of KnockBack?  Just move the power fx down to floor level and have it blast everyone up into the air?

now you are just getting flirty   that would be epic!

Edited January 10 by Snarky

[Wavicle]

I wouldn't complain if many KB powers were turned to KU instead, Storm, PB, Energy, and more! There might have to be some exceptions for certain abilities meant to be positioning tools, but that's only a few specific powers I think.

[Stormwalker]

10 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I wouldn't complain if many KB powers were turned to KU instead, Storm, PB, Energy, and more! There might have to be some exceptions for certain abilities meant to be positioning tools, but that's only a few specific powers I think.

 

It wouldn't fit for a lot of energy powers because they're clearly intended to be kinetic bolts (and thus push the target away from the blaster), but Explosive Blast is an exception there since the animation suggests it detonates at a particular point and thus by modifying the point at which it detonates you can justify it knocking enemies in whatever direction you want.

 

For KU, you just make it detonate at their feet.  In fact, that would actually make MORE sense than the current behavior (which pushes the enemies away from the blaster, rather than the detonation point), but the current implementation is a compromise between game mechanics and verisimilitude, because the mroe realistic behavior (a scatter bomb, effectively) is not a good outcome for anyone in game mechanics.

 

Changing it to KU (if you moved the power fx down to the target's feet) would solve both problems - it would make more sense, AND be better mechanically.

 

Edited January 10 by Stormwalker
It's Explosive Blast, not Explosive Strike. I was half-asleep when I made this comment, apparently.

[biostem]

6 hours ago, Snarky said:

now you are just getting flirty

That reminds of this joke about lightbulbs...

[Super Atom]

i have a compromise. We delete sentinels. This removes one source of knockback and it gets rid of all those sentinels.

[Seed22]

3 hours ago, Super Atom said:

i have a compromise. We delete sentinels. This removes one source of knockback and it gets rid of all those sentinels.

Delete Energy Blast*
 

No way to troll if the set doesn’t exist 😎

[Ultimo]

See, the thing for me is, knockback is kind of a definitive aspect of fights in comic books, especially when the characters are super strong.  The problem with knockback in the game is that knocking a foe away is actually counterproductive for most super strong characters, since they also have defensive toggles that improve defenses depending on how many enemies are in melee range.  This makes knockback undesirable in most cases.

 

What I would like to see is for knockback to be made USEFUL.  The simplest method is to have it do some damage.  More knockback should do more damage.  I mean, if I fall down where I am, I'll say ouch.  If I fall down after flying 30 feet through the air, I'm going to say more than that, it's going to hurt a lot more.