Null da Gull Knockback

[Ultimo]

4 hours ago, Jacke said:

I think the request for a KB affecting all Powers won't be done, particularly due to how I think the current Powers would have to be changed.

 

All Player KB Powers (there are a lot) would have to check an internal Power used as a flag for this.  That means changing dozens of Powers--and testing it extensively.

 

That's a big chunk of Dev and Tester time to do this right.  There's also the interaction with other planned changes.  That alone is a sufficient issue that will block this.

I believe you'll find that was meant as a joke.  I'm sure he said so somewhere in the thread, you might not have seen it.

[UltraAlt]

17 hours ago, Super Atom said:

All this crying and you didn't even read the suggestion. It literally leaves knock back as is for people who like it

 

I stated my view.

That isn't any more "crying" than the people that want to be able to forward this suggestion.

 

As I stated in my opinion, there are already enhancements available to convert knockback to knockdown if you want to use them.

 

Please leave personal insults out of your comments.

[Super Atom]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Please leave personal insults out of your comments

 

You know what? You're right, I think i can explain why i reacted negatively to your comment without calling you a hurtful name. You can safely ignore my previous reply i hid it myself.

 

Quote

Leave knockback alone.

 

That's literally the suggestion.

 

Quote

I would think that the majority of players that complain about it are melee players and/or playing level 50's and just want to steamroll content.

 

This is an insult, it's a baseless assumption that you're making to discredit people commenting for it, and insulting the poster who quite literally was trying to keep your desired playstyle in tact.

 

Quote

If you don't like knockback on your characters, there are enhancements to convert it.

 

This has been said repeatedly, this is not good enough. It feels like a punishment for just trying to play in a way that isn't viewed as disruptive to myself and others.

 

Quote

If you don't like other people using knockback, maybe it is time to realizes that you are playing with other people that don't need to adhere to your playstyle.

 

You are literally trying to force people to adhere to your playstyle by shooting down an idea that would allow for you and the people who don't like KB to exist at the same time.

 

Quote

Are you on the only one on the team that is complaining? I'm going to put you on ignore.

Are you the leader and the only one complaining? I probably put you on ignore and may or may not simply leave your team. I don't want to see your /lfg recruitment messages any more.

 

Your alternative is to kick people from teams for not adhearing to your desired playstyle, and putting people on ignore in a small community and possibly exclude them from league teams you may run, holiday teams you may run or GM kills simply for their desired playstyle. To that i say, absolutely not.

 

Quote

As far as I'm concerned, there is far too much complaining about knockback.

It isn't complaints from a large number of players, but the players that have an issue with it are very vocal.

 

Calling people complainers is the same as saying someone is crying, maybe you should take your own advice and leave personal insults out of your comments if you don't want push back. (haha push back, get it?)

Edited 19 hours ago by Super Atom

[Seed22]

There has never been, and never will be any instance in CoH history where a heavy KB user has been helpful to the team over say a solid troller or debuffer.

 

Death is the best CC, followed by solid KD and or stuns and debuffing them until the already wet noodle is nothing more than a flea.

 

KB does nothing useful in practice

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:

There has never been, and never will be any instance in CoH history where a heavy KB user has been helpful to the team over say a solid troller or debuffer.

 

Death is the best CC, followed by solid KD and or stuns and debuffing them until the already wet noodle is nothing more than a flea.

 

KB does nothing useful in practice

Back in early 2006, I was happily running around heroically whacking stuff on my very first toon: a barely-SO'ed Katana/Regen Scrapper.

They were a "Boss Handler" on teams; and whilst they didn't always have the Spike Damage Output to end +4 Bosses quickly, they sure as heck could "remove them from the fight" by keeping them tied up bouncing up and down on the floor indefinitely whilst I gradually whittled their HP down. It wasn't uncommon for me to juggle more than one such Boss simultaneously (whilst Soaring Dragon and Golden Dragonfly alone couldn't quite do that; in those crazy long-gone days I purposely chose to take Air Superiority and eventually Laser Beam Eyes for a "backup non-lethal-damage attack chain"... 😹)

The Maelwys of back then definitely approved of Knockdown; and to a lesser extent, Knockup (knocking things too far up has a nasty habit of momentarily interrupting the flow of an attack chain)... but as for Knockback? They hated it. The Fitness pool wasn't inherent yet and newbie Mael had chosen to take the Teleport pool for their Travel Power (because it looked fun; and for some reason I could headcanon the character having access to a device that let them "bodyslide by one" cable-style) so they hardly had any unsuppressed movement to speak of. Chasing after runners was painful; let alone running after enemies that I was already actively whacking at which suddenly got punted away from me by a total idiot well-intentioned teammate. Eventually I ended up respeccing into the Fitness pool (for Hurdle) and the Leaping Pool (for Combat Jumping) out of sheer frustration.

My second toon on Heroside was a Human form Peacebringer. They had oodles of Knockback: Gleaming Blast. Radiant Strike. Solar Flare. Photon Seekers. Dawn Strike.
However I took my earlier bad experiences with Knockback from my Scrapper to heart; and I made damn sure that (i) I had lots of unsuppressed movement and (ii) the team knew in advance that anything I knocked back was "mine" (e.g. I'm responsible for killing it now). I also tried wherever possible to only use my AoEs on the outer edge of a mob so that they were all knocked in a single "useful" direction rather than scattered to the winds (although that wasn't always possible when toebombing with Seeker Drones!).
I never had any complaints... but I still would have killed for a global KB>KD switch/IO.

[srmalloy]

17 hours ago, biostem said:

It depends upon how the powers work.  For instance, if anything less than a value of 1 for a KB power turns it into KD, then you could simply apply a -KB magnitude debuff to the player...

that's how it works now; any KB of mag less than 1 is knockdown, and the KB->KD IOs apply a multiplier of, IIRC, .001 to the knockback magnitude of the power they're slotted in.

[srmalloy]

9 hours ago, Super Atom said:

It feels like a punishment for just trying to play in a way that isn't viewed as disruptive to myself and others.

I see. You choose a powerset that you know has knockback baked into virtually every attack, but it's apparently enough of a rude shock and surprise that it actually does, in fact, incorporate knockback into virtually every attack, and that you have to devote an enhancement slot for each power to have it not do knockback is a punishment for somehow having been forced to choose that powerset with all of its unwanted knockback, because it requires a style of play that's different from what you wanted.

Edited 10 hours ago by srmalloy
tightening up grammar

[Super Atom]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

I see. You choose a powerset that you know has knockback baked into virtually every attack, but it's apparently enough of a rude shock and surprise that it actually does, in fact, incorporate knockback into virtually every attack, and that you have to devote an enhancement slot for each power to have it not do knockback is a punishment for somehow having been forced to choose that powerset with all of its unwanted knockback, because it requires a style of play that's different from what you wanted.

 

No, this is a belittling attempt to make it look like a person is saying "oh wow i can't believe theres knockback!" No i'm saying KB sucks, dealing with it sucks, its a bad CC and i don't even think it should be a thing. However. Given that people enjoy it, removing it is not really an option. So you work to find a solution that works for everyone, now we've been over that this is a no go from the start given the 2nd post answered the suggestion already. So all of this is a big what if world pointless conversation. I take issue with there being a set that requires you to spend slots to counter-act a poorly designed form of CC if you don't want to deal with it. I think it could be better.

 

But this is exactly my problem, this idea wouldn't hurt you or anyone else who likes KB but you're trying to find every excuse, backhanded insult and way to belittle someone you possibly can instead of DARING to let anyone else do something different from what you enjoy. You contribute actually fucking nothing to a conversation other than a no and a backhanded insult and then you get pissy if someone calls you out on it.

 

I'm also completely uninterested in back and forthing with the lot of you, you just keep swapping out which forum robot says the same boring bullshit as the last one.

Edited 8 hours ago by Super Atom

[phandaal]

Just now, Super Atom said:

But this is exactly my problem, this idea wouldn't hurt you or anyone else who likes KB but you're trying to find every excuse, backhanded insult and way to belittle someone you possibly can instead of DARING to let anyone else do something different from what you enjoy. You contribute actually fucking nothing to a conversation other than a no and a backhanded insult and then you get pissy if someone calls you out on it.

 

Yeah, this is the weird part. The suggestion is to give other people an option to change the ability, and let people who enjoy KB to keep using it as much as they want. If the reason for saying "no" is a technical one, or a resource one, or something like that, then sure that is totally fine and understandable.

 

It is the "no, because I don't want you to have that option, and you are a loser for asking" responses that are odd.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Yeah, this is the weird part. The suggestion is to give other people an option to change the ability, and let people who enjoy KB to keep using it as much as they want. If the reason for saying "no" is a technical one, or a resource one, or something like that, then sure that is totally fine and understandable.

 

It is the "no, because I don't want you to have that option, and you are a loser for asking" responses that are odd.

The opposition is that the request, which as already stated by a dev won't be happening so I am really wondering why this debate is still going, is to remove one of the game's core mechanics. Sure, players that don't want to use the proposal can simply not use it, but that isn't really any better than saying "I want a power that can 1-shot Hamidon and if others don't want that then they don't have to take it". My example in this post is intentionally skewed and over the top, ridiculous even, but I'm hoping doing so will drive the point home. The game already provides players with the means of not having KB in their attacks. They can simply slot Sudden Acceleration and Overwhelming Force. And if those sets are slotted rather than just the proc, then slotting them isn't an "enhancement tax". If those sets aren't sufficient for players, they can ask for more sets that also have a proc that changes KB to KD. Asking to simply be able to turn off a game mechanic without making use of the provided means players are meant to be using to do so is not a quality of life thing.

 

However, players following the current meta will never be happy with that because while they are quite happy to slot procs into their powers, those procs have to do extra damage for them to accept it. So those procs will always be an "enhancement tax" in their eyes. As much as they don't like it though, the game is not designed to facilitate the current meta and so I see no reason for the game to be changed to make everything fit into it.

[Super Atom]

This is literally what i mean by forum robot bullshit. Same old strawman, belittling replies just because they want to say no.

 

It is correct though, there is no reason for this to continue.

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Super Atom

[phandaal]

51 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The opposition is that the request, which as already stated by a dev won't be happening so I am really wondering why this debate is still going, is to remove one of the game's core mechanics. Sure, players that don't want to use the proposal can simply not use it, but that isn't really any better than saying "I want a power that can 1-shot Hamidon and if others don't want that then they don't have to take it". My example in this post is intentionally skewed and over the top, ridiculous even, but I'm hoping doing so will drive the point home. The game already provides players with the means of not having KB in their attacks. They can simply slot Sudden Acceleration and Overwhelming Force. And if those sets are slotted rather than just the proc, then slotting them isn't an "enhancement tax". If those sets aren't sufficient for players, they can ask for more sets that also have a proc that changes KB to KD. Asking to simply be able to turn off a game mechanic without making use of the provided means players are meant to be using to do so is not a quality of life thing.

 

However, players following the current meta will never be happy with that because while they are quite happy to slot procs into their powers, those procs have to do extra damage for them to accept it. So those procs will always be an "enhancement tax" in their eyes. As much as they don't like it though, the game is not designed to facilitate the current meta and so I see no reason for the game to be changed to make everything fit into it.

Could have stopped at "the developers say it can't happen." If that is true, then that is just how it is.

 

The rest is a whole lot of stuff that may or may not be true. You have no idea if everyone who supports this just wants to slot more damage procs into everything, for example. This is feedback people have had for a very long time, long before this server's current meta.

Edited 7 hours ago by phandaal

[Super Atom]

16 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Could have stopped at "the developers say it can't happen." If that is true, then that is just how it is.

 

The rest is a whole lot of stuff that may or may not be true. You have no idea if everyone who supports this just wants to slot more damage procs into everything, for example. This is feedback people have had for a very long time, long before this server's current meta.

 

Rudra, despite their own personal belief, does not speak on behalf of homecoming. The dev didn't say it cannot be done they basically said they'd rather improve in it other ways (5 years ago)  They also used the bullying excuse, which I heavily disagree with as an angle.

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Super Atom

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Sure, players that don't want to use the proposal can simply not use it, but that isn't really any better than saying "I want a power that can 1-shot Hamidon and if others don't want that then they don't have to take it". My example in this post is intentionally skewed and over the top, ridiculous even, but I'm hoping doing so will drive the point home. The game already provides players with the means of not having KB in their attacks. They can simply slot Sudden Acceleration and Overwhelming Force.

 

At least you can admit that your example is a grossly exaggerated strawman ...  I don't buy the "people will just use the extra slots for damage procs" either.  Most damage procs are unique, so you can only slot one of them. 

 

KB should be addressed IMO for the sole reason of it not working well with all of the geometry errors on maps where there's a high degree of probability stuff gets knocked into walls or objects.   Asking players to sacrifice builds to fix a problem with the game geometry or just deal with stuff getting knocked into the environment doesn't work in my opinion.  There has to be a better way to address it.

Edited 7 hours ago by ZacKing

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

KB should be addressed IMO for the sole reason of it not working well with all of the geometry errors on maps where there's a high degree of probability stuff gets knocked into walls or objects. 

It already is being addressed with a means of not having KB in attacks for those that don't want it. Make use of the available options the game provides. If that isn't enough, then ask for more sets for more options. That's why those sets exist is to be used and give players that option.

[Rudra]

You know, a funny thing just happened. There have been comments on previous KB threads that slotting the Sudden Acceleration set works against the proc. With the implication that you can't slot the set without losing the benefit of the proc'. So I just hopped on the test server, threw together a level 50 energy/energy blaster, slotted 5 Sudden Acceleration sets and 1 Overwhelming Force, and then did a mission. The funny thing I mentioned? With a full Sudden Acceleration set slotted, the powers still did KD, not KB.

[ZacKing]

31 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It already is being addressed with a means of not having KB in attacks for those that don't want it. Make use of the available options the game provides. If that isn't enough, then ask for more sets for more options. That's why those sets exist is to be used and give players that option.

 

It's not a great solution though.  Everyone knows there's IOs to convert KB to KD.  That's not the problem and you're missing the point.  What you're essentially telling people to do is sacrifice build slots to correct flaws in how the game is built.  Again, KB seems great on paper, but in reality it tends to cause more problems than it solves.  Tiny cave maps and office maps with narrow hallways - which there are a ton of - aren't conducive to "finding the right angle" to knock things into walls, and even if you can, quite often stuff gets knocked into holes in the walls or floors where they can't be targeted.  I even linked to a post earlier a GM made about this being a common occurrence in the DFB cave map.  That's annoying and we shouldn't have to slot an IO to fix that problem.  KB should get fixed.  I don't think telling people to choose between gaining the last set bonus in a complete IO set and an IO to stop them from knocking stuff into holes in the maps is a good tradeoff or a good solution.  That's more a bandaid to me than a fix.  KB and the amount of KB in general should be addressed. 

 

We all get it.  Someone from HC said getting rid of KB is not going to happen.  Whether that's because HC doesn't have the people to do it or they don't think it's broken or NCSoft won't allow them to make that kind of change doesn't really matter.  This is just a discussion.

[Indystruck]

23 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You know, a funny thing just happened. There have been comments on previous KB threads that slotting the Sudden Acceleration set works against the proc. With the implication that you can't slot the set without losing the benefit of the proc'. So I just hopped on the test server, threw together a level 50 energy/energy blaster, slotted 5 Sudden Acceleration sets and 1 Overwhelming Force, and then did a mission. The funny thing I mentioned? With a full Sudden Acceleration set slotted, the powers still did KD, not KB.

 

I am pretty sure the implication of the proc working against the set implies that the KB values that are used in the formula for how much value an IO grants in terms of things like Attack/Def/Acc/Recharge/End Redux/KB/etc mean that by six slotting Sudden Acceleration, you are effectively nullifying the "value" granted in that set that is assigned to the Knockback.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

It already is being addressed with a means of not having KB in attacks for those that don't want it. Make use of the available options the game provides. If that isn't enough, then ask for more sets for more options. That's why those sets exist is to be used and give players that option.

 

Asking for an option to change it at Null the Gull is not OK, but asking for new sets is OK? Nope, not buying that for a minute.

 

I may be new to this forum, but I am not new to Planet Earth, and based on the responses here I believe that anyone asking for such a new set would get the exact same pushback.

[Super Atom]

8 minutes ago, phandaal said:

I may be new to this forum, but I am not new to Planet Earth, and based on the responses here I believe that anyone asking for such a new set would get the exact same pushback.

 

That did happen, the ask was for a set that was global kb > kd and wouldn't you know it, pushback and no's all around.

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Asking for an option to change it at Null the Gull is not OK, but asking for new sets is OK? Nope, not buying that for a minute.

 

I may be new to this forum, but I am not new to Planet Earth, and based on the responses here I believe that anyone asking for such a new set would get the exact same pushback.

Asking for more sets with a KB to KD proc follows established precedent in the game. Asking for a Null the Gull option bypasses what was done in the game for that purpose. So yes, asking for more sets is perfectly fine while asking for a global option in Null the Gull is not.

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

That did happen, the ask was for a set that was global kb > kd and wouldn't you know it, pushback and no's all around.

Because it was a global.

[Maelwys]

6 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

That did happen, the ask was for a set that was global kb > kd and wouldn't you know it, pushback

 

Which is kind of ironic TBH... 😛

 

For my part, I would appreciate having a means available to turn my KB powers into KD powers that didn't involve having to utilise a separate enhancement slot within each relevant power.

For any build designer worth their salt those enhancement slots (other than possibly the Overwhelming Force unique) are "wasted" because you're utilising them to tweak the secondary effect of the power, rather than utilising them to boost its aspect enhancement or gain additional damage output, utility or survivability via set bonuses, procs or globals.

It is indeed IMO an unnecessarily harsh enhancement slot tax on anyone who wants to reign in the effects of their own KB powers.

 

And it's not just the obvious powers like Energy Blasts that benefit from taming KB. I recently redid my Fire/Ice/Fire Blaster in order to shuffle slots around, and sticking an Overwhelming Force KB>KD IO into Rise of the Phoenix effectively triples its damage output because normally any foes around you will get knocked back from the first tick out of range of the two followup ticks.

 

All that said... I appreciate that we have any KB>KD options available at all. Because I remember the days back on live when the only method of taming them was hard mez like holds and a few very specific immobilizes.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Maelwys said:

And it's not just the obvious powers like Energy Blasts that benefit from taming KB. I recently redid my Fire/Ice/Fire Blaster in order to shuffle slots around, and sticking an Overwhelming Force KB>KD IO into Rise of the Phoenix effectively triples its damage output because normally any foes around you will get knocked back from the first tick out of range of the two followup ticks.

 

I'm pretty sure this perfectly explains why they aren't going to give us a much easier option, however much we might want it. In many, many cases, KB>KD is a big increase in DPS.

I think the best we can expect, and we should keep asking for these things, is more access to Draw In powers, more access to -KB in AoE abilities, and possibly another set or two with KB>KD IOs (with more flexibility than Sudden Acceleration, hopefully) AND, maybe, some modifications to KB CHANCE in AoE abilities. 

[Maelwys]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Asking for more sets with a KB to KD proc follows established precedent in the game. Asking for a Null the Gull option bypasses what was done in the game for that purpose. So yes, asking for more sets is perfectly fine while asking for a global option in Null the Gull is not.

 

TBF it doesn't have to be a global IO or a Null the Gull setting... although coding a power as a Set Bonus that gets triggered by one of those would be a very technically straightforward method of achieving the desired effect.

 

It could be a START purchase, a craftable Temporary Power, a Prismatic Aether or Incarnate currency unlock... or even a new Alpha Slot ability that contains a large Negative amount of KB % slotting. Anything to avoid having to stick more of those bloody Sudden Acceleration procs everywhere (never mind that some powers such as RoTF can't take those in the first place!!)

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Maelwys