Null da Gull Knockback

[Super Atom]

I'd take more sets that offer it, but i'd like to see it in more damage based sets. It's not as ideal as a global or a null option for me, but i'd still take it.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

 

TBF it doesn't have to be a global IO or a Null the Gull setting... although coding a power as a Set Bonus that gets triggered by one of those would be a very technically straightforward method of achieving the desired effect.

 

It could be a START purchase, a craftable Temporary Power, a Prismatic Aether or Incarnate currency unlock... or even a new Alpha Slot ability that contains a large Negative amount of KB % slotting. Anything to avoid having to stick more of those bloody Sudden Acceleration procs everywhere (never mind that some powers such as RoTF can't take those in the first place!!)

 

If it is a global KB to KD effect, I will always oppose it regardless of type/source. If it is an additional enhancement set that makes players like you happier with a KB to KD proc for the power slotted in, I will support you.

[Maelwys]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

If it is a global KB to KD effect, I will always oppose it regardless of type/source. If it is an additional enhancement set that makes players like you happier with a KB to KD proc for the power slotted in, I will support you.

 

Even simply removing the unique flag from the Overwhelming Force Proc would go a long way actually. (And preferably also making the set itself available as an "unattuned boostable" or "superior" version whilst they're at it so that its aspect boosts can become competitive with other more regular sets!)

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

 

Even simply removing the unique flag from the Overwhelming Force Proc would go a long way actually. (And preferably also making the set itself available as an "unattuned boostable" or "superior" version whilst they're at it so that its aspect boosts can become competitive with other more regular sets!)

I'm guessing the set is unique at least partially because of the proc. That proc is doing a whole lot: increasing damage, changing existing KB to KD, and adding a KD proc as well. So I'm willing to bet it will never be made not unique. More damage sets that aren't unique and have a KB to KD proc in them though? Should be fine to ask for.

 

Edit: And as for a Superior version of it? Looks to me like it is already granting Superior set bonuses.

 

Edited January 15 by Rudra

[phandaal]

33 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

That did happen, the ask was for a set that was global kb > kd and wouldn't you know it, pushback and no's all around.

 

What a shock! 😄

 

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Because it was a global.

 

Oh there are more qualifications besides just "ask for a new set"? How convenient that you forgot to mention this when laying out what is OK for us to request.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, phandaal said:

24 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Because it was a global.

 

Oh there are more qualifications besides just "ask for a new set"? How convenient that you forgot to mention this when laying out what is OK for us to request.

I did lay out the qualifications. You simply chose to not review them. I've been against global KB to KD this entire thread. Why would that change just because it is being moved to an enhancement set?

 

Edit: And as far as "what is okay for you to request" goes? I'm not stopping anyone from requesting anything. However, I will argue against things I disagree with.

 

Edited January 15 by Rudra

[Maelwys]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Edit: And as for a Superior version of it? Looks to me like it is already granting Superior set bonuses.

 

The set bonuses are grand, the aspect enhancement could use a hand though. Being unable to boost them to Lv50+5 because they all come pre attuned is a nasty performance hit that you have to consider when comparing them to other regular IO sets.

 

Although my preferred option if we're wishing on a star + sticking to non global effects would be to add a reduced PPM damage proc effect to the existing Sudden Acceleration Proc IOs so that they can actually do something vaguely useful other than "help me counteract my own powers"...

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Although my preferred option if we're wishing on a star + sticking to non global effects would be to add a reduced PPM damage proc effect to the existing Sudden Acceleration Proc IOs so that they can actually do something vaguely useful other than "help me counteract my own powers"...

That would most likely render the Sudden Acceleration set suddenly unique. (Edit: Or at least its proc. Also, given the set bonuses from Overwhelming Force, that is probably why the entire set, and not just the proc, are unique. The Superior set bonuses.)

 

Edited January 15 by Rudra

[Maelwys]

Just now, Rudra said:

That would most likely render the Sudden Acceleration set suddenly unique.

It might. And in that case I'd happily use it in one power and an Overwhelming Force in a 2nd power: then repeatedly pester the Devs for new useful KB>KD IOs to cover the 3rd and 4th and 5th etc. etc. powers... 

 

And hopefully at some point the realisation that a great many players really want the means to reign in their KB without rendering lots of their precious enhancement slots "otherwise useless" might even start to sink in a bit more.

 

I grok the argument that "if it's possible to swap all KB to KD without any opportunity cost then doing so will become expected on PUGs to the point where nonconforming players are excluded". I just don't believe that such an expectation is a major issue in these days of multiple builds, increased soloing performance, and most of the playerbase now being old and grizzled enough to simply NOT CARE and instead avail of the many Premade/Friendlist/LeadYerOwn teaming opportunities.

[lemming]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

And as for a Superior version of it? Looks to me like it is already granting Superior set bonuses

It's not.  The set bonuses are good for a non-superior set, but it's not.  You can compare to Winter sets (and ATOs)

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, lemming said:

It's not.  The set bonuses are good for a non-superior set, but it's not.  You can compare to Winter sets (and ATOs)

I didn't check against the winter sets for lack of overlap, but using regeneration set bonus as the comparison, Overwhelming Force's bonus was 1.5x better than the non-unique sets. Which explains to me why the set is unique.

 

Edited January 15 by Rudra
Edited to add "set bonus". And again to add "than the non-unique sets".

[tidge]

The unique Overwhelming Force set IIR has a proc that also contains a Damage Enhancing component, as well as a piece that is a rare combination of Endurance Reduction/Recharge.

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, tidge said:

The unique Overwhelming Force set IIR has a proc that also contains a Damage Enhancing component, as well as a piece that is a rare combination of Endurance Reduction/Recharge.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

That proc is doing a whole lot: increasing damage, changing existing KB to KD, and adding a KD proc as well.

 

[Super Atom]

"ask for sets"

"no not globals"

"not stats either, or it has to be unique"

 

 

Edited January 16 by Super Atom

[Ghost]

When will the mods put this thread out of its misery

[lemming]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

I didn't check against the winter sets for lack of overlap, but using regeneration set bonus as the comparison, Overwhelming Force's bonus was 1.5x better than the non-unique sets. Which explains to me why the set is unique.

26.5% for dual bonuses, set bonuses similar to Numina and others.   It's non-superior.   (And also described that way by devs recently)

 

In anycase, I'm way off on topics.

 

I'm for people to be able to drop KB.  I'd prefer a toggle per power.  Could make it just remove KB for each power as an option, and if they want KD, then they can put in an enhancement.   (I'd be cool with a new set that one of the set bonuses was KB->KD)

 

KB can be a very useful power, but most people don't bother finding out how to use it.    I like the idea of converting Explosive Blast to KU though.

[UltraAlt]

On 1/15/2025 at 1:46 AM, Super Atom said:

This is an insult, it's a baseless assumption that you're making to discredit people commenting for it, and insulting the poster who quite literally was trying to keep your desired playstyle in tact.

 

No, it isn't.

Being on teams - and I do team - I don't remember ever seeing anyone complain about knockback was melee based characters and characters that were level 50.

Reading these forum - obviously I do - I have read post by players that said that it was disruptive to their melee play-style and/or complaints about knockback in high-end content.

 

Is the untrained/team-friendly content not disruptive to those that want to steamroll content?

My statement about steamrolling teams seems correct.

People have different styles of play. "steamrolling" is a fairly common term. People that steamroll even use it to talk about their playstyle so see no reason that using that term would be insulting.

 

I'm not discrediting them, I'm indicating that they are the ones that are more likely to have an issue with it based on my experience.

You are free to post your opinion of what archetypes and levels of characters are most like to oppose the use of knockback.

Honestly, I have been on extremely few teams when anyone complains about knockback. I think I can easily say less than 10 in the several years that I have been on Homecoming servers ... it is probably more likely less than 5.

And just to help clarify, I only very rarely play level 50 or level 50+ content, so that is another reason that I suspect I'm not hearing the in-game complaints about the use of knockback.

 

Are they justified with having an issue with knockback? If they do, it is their opinion like I have mine, but I do think that is where most of the complaints about knockback come from based on my experience.

 

On 1/15/2025 at 1:46 AM, Super Atom said:

This has been said repeatedly, this is not good enough.

 

In my opinion it is.

Just because in your opinion and some other people's opinions it doesn't, does make it so.

 

On 1/15/2025 at 1:46 AM, Super Atom said:

It feels like a punishment for just trying to play in a way that isn't viewed as disruptive to myself and others.

 

Then maybe you should learn how to use knockback powers so they aren't disruptive or slot knockback to knockdown in all characters' knockback powers.

 

I seriously don't have a problem with using knockback or other players using knockback. I run in some teams where everyone has has knockback. Lots of fun chaos as far as I'm concerned.

 

On 1/15/2025 at 1:46 AM, Super Atom said:

You are literally trying to force people to adhere to your playstyle by shooting down an idea that would allow for you and the people who don't like KB to exist at the same time.

 

Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about and making assumptions.

 

I figure out how a team is operating and do what I can to either augment what the rest of the team is doing or try to fill in the gaps/help the weaker members of the team.

 

It is no use discussing anything with you any longer.

You simply attack posters that you disagree with and - apparently - think that other people shouldn't post opinions if they disagree with yours.

 

Your opinions are no more valid than anyone else's. Everyone can state their opinions.

 

I don't want the DEVs feeling like they need to waste their time working on something that already has a fix.

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 11:22 AM by UltraAlt

[Skyhawke]

10 hours ago, Ghost said:

When will the mods put this thread out of its misery

 

I'm 99% sure that the mods secretly have all the KB-KD enhancements on the auction house and this thread is making them major bank. 😁

[tidge]

12 hours ago, Ghost said:

When will the mods put this thread out of its misery

 

Obviously we all have to declare the user with the most posts in the thread the winner, and then everyone will be satisfied.

[Super Atom]

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

No, it isn't.

Being on teams - and I do team - I don't remember ever seeing anyone complain about knockback was melee based characters and characters that were level 50.

Reading these forum - obviously I do - I have read post by players that said that it was disruptive to their melee play-style and/or complaints about knockback in high-end content.

 

This is pretty confusing to read, so it's melee AND 50's? Also, it's anecdotal and an assumption you're making based on personal experience. It doesn't make it a point of fact, seeing as I'm a blaster primarily and my issue is when knockback is used to knock things out of my patches, aoes, and especially my nuke. So you're wrong, again.

 

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Is the untrained/team-friendly content not disruptive to those that want to steamroll content?

My statement about steamrolling teams seems correct.

People have different styles of play. "steamrolling" is a fairly common term. People that steamroll even use it to talk about their playstyle so see no reason that using that term would be insulting.

 

It's insulting because you're trying to paint people in a specific image to discredit their complaints. I have said multiple times It's not about going fast, It's about a CC that is disruptive inherently unless you learn to use it, and far more players don't learn than do. Hence disruptive. So yes, I find it insulting, which as we've established is my opinion.

 

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I'm not discrediting them, I'm indicating that they are the ones that are more likely to have an issue with it based on my experience.

You are free to post your opinion of what archetypes and levels of characters are most like to oppose the use of knockback.

Honestly, I have been on extremely few teams when anyone complains about knockback. I think I can easily say less than 10 in the several years that I have been on Homecoming servers ... it is probably more likely less than 5.

And just to help clarify, I only very rarely play level 50 or level 50+ content, so that is another reason that I suspect I'm not hearing the in-game complaints about the use of knockback.

 

You're not wrong, and i've said it in previous posts. This issue is very small-scale. It's not like every other team is being ruined, but an issue doesn't need to be end of the world level thread to be discussed.

 

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Are they justified with having an issue with knockback? If they do, it is their opinion like I have mine, but I do think that is where most of the complaints about knockback come from based on my experience.

 

Yes it is an opinion, which you're about to figure out people can have differing opinions.

 

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

In my opinion it is.

Just because in your opinion and some other people's opinions it doesn't, does make it so.

 

Yep it is an opinion, that's how conversations like these happen. Nowhere do we say it's a fact that KB sucks and should be removed. It's why the suggestion tries specifically to ensure Knock back doesn't change for those who want it.

 

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Then maybe you should learn how to use knockback powers so they aren't disruptive or slot knockback to knockdown in all characters' knockback powers.

 

I seriously don't have a problem with using knockback or other players using knockback. I run in some teams where everyone has has knockback. Lots of fun chaos as far as I'm concerned.

 

Another back-handed insult, just to prove you're a hypocrite and another assumption that i am having these issues because i do not know how to use it. I do, i just don't like it. I'm glad you don't have a problem with knockback and enjoy it, which is why I'd like a solution that lets you keep it. As opposed to you who would rather everyone be forced to use it.

 

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about and making assumptions.

 

Projection.

 

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

It is no use discussing anything with you any longer.

You simply attack posters that you disagree with and - apparently - think that other people shouldn't post opinions if they disagree with yours.

 

Yes, you like to hide behind back-handed insults and then claim you're being attacked when someone doesn't like it. You're free to disagree with me, you're not free to be insulting and try to pretend people are trying to get rid of knockback when nobody is.

 

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

our opinions are no more valid than anyone else's. Everyone can state their opinions.

 

They can yes, but you can't lie about other people and expect them not to reply.

 

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I don't want the DEVs feeling like they need to waste their time working on something that already has a fix.

 

The fix is not good enough to many people. You are once again trying to say your opinion is better and it is a "waste of dev time" to go against it.

 

I'm going to let you talk to you.

 

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about and making assumptions

 

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Your opinions are no more valid than anyone else's. Everyone can state their opinions.

 

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Are they justified with having an issue with knockback? If they do, it is their opinion like I have mine,

 

There is no reason for us to keep going back and forth. I don't like you, we disagree, and i think you didn't read the thread, freaked out and knee-jerk reacted thinking people wanted to remove KB and now you're just defensive.

Edited Thursday at 03:52 PM by Super Atom

[Excraft]

9 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Being on teams - and I do team - I don't remember ever seeing anyone complain about knockback was melee based characters and characters that were level 50.

Reading these forum - obviously I do - I have read post by players that said that it was disruptive to their melee play-style and/or complaints about knockback in high-end content.

 

I don't think this is what you're saying, but would you mind clarifying your position here?  It sounds like you're suggesting it's only melee players who have a problem with knockback and can be interpreted that since it's only melee players, they don't matter.

[srmalloy]

21 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Even simply removing the unique flag from the Overwhelming Force Proc would go a long way actually.

Just curious; in powers that do knockback, is there something stopping you from slotting the Sudden Acceleration KB->KD IO, which isn't unique, since the fact that they do do knockback is the feature that is being railed against? Or is it only being able to get the benefit of one set of set bonuses from Overwhelming Force that's the real issue, and turning KB to KD is the straw horse used to argue for the enhancements in the set being stripped of their unique status? How many powers do knockback but have the knockback unenhanceable, and therefore can't take Knockback sets?

[srmalloy]

On 1/15/2025 at 10:04 AM, Super Atom said:

No, this is a belittling attempt to make it look like a person is saying "oh wow i can't believe theres knockback!" No i'm saying KB sucks, dealing with it sucks, its a bad CC and i don't even think it should be a thing. However. Given that people enjoy it, removing it is not really an option. So you work to find a solution that works for everyone, now we've been over that this is a no go from the start given the 2nd post answered the suggestion already.

An entirely new powerset -- called, say, 'Power Blast' -- could be made copying Energy Blast in its entirety, except for not having knockback in any of its attacks (and perhaps with a default color change to distinguish it from EB). That would address that one powerset, but there are enough powers in other powersets that doing this wholesale would be impractical. There are both unique and non-unique knockback-to-knockdown IOs already in the game, and using them for the odd knockback-doing power in other powersets is viable instead of mirroring an entire set to make one power knockback-free. However, if this were done, I would want to see the stats for the powerset locked down hard, with any claims that the resultant powerset was 'underperforming' automatically rejected.

[Super Atom]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

An entirely new powerset -- called, say, 'Power Blast' -- could be made copying Energy Blast in its entirety, except for not having knockback in any of its attacks (and perhaps with a default color change to distinguish it from EB). That would address that one powerset, but there are enough powers in other powersets that doing this wholesale would be impractical. There are both unique and non-unique knockback-to-knockdown IOs already in the game, and using them for the odd knockback-doing power in other powersets is viable instead of mirroring an entire set to make one power knockback-free. However, if this were done, I would want to see the stats for the powerset locked down hard, with any claims that the resultant powerset was 'underperforming' automatically rejected.

 

Sorry but im gonna have to say no.

 

No more concessions or trying to make people who aren't even going to use it happy. If you like knockback cool, go enjoy your knockback. I'm only interested in improving the experience for those who don't without dumb restrictions or concessions.

 

Be it new sets that aren't gimped by a unique flag (unless its a global)  just because they're KB>KD + Something else, Null flag, a START option, or even just making knockback better. IDC but this whole nitpicking and trying to limit options just because you like knockback is cringe and I'm done with it and anyone who suggests it

 

Edit: you're not really a huge offender on my rant smalljoy, but my point still remains. No nerfing, no nonsense. Just give us better ways to not have KB.

Edited Thursday at 10:10 PM by Super Atom

[shortguy on indom]

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