Dynamic Level factions

[Rudra]

Here's a thought I had. If all mobs went levelless like they do for events, then the level adjustment difficulty setting wouldn't do anything any more. No more reducing to -1 level for missions that the player is struggling with. No more waiting until you've gotten an extra level or two under your belt before going back in to tackle that mission solo any more because the mobs will all still be your level. No increasing to +1 or higher for added challenge either. No more hunting around RWZ or Cimerora for those level 54s either, because they would now all be equal con for not having levels any more. Those purple Malta Titans in Warburg wouldn't be purple any more, just yellow for being lieutenants. And the iTrials? Would be a cake walk. No more fighting level 57s or whatever level Tyrant is in the Magisterium iTrial because all mobs would be equal con to the players, only shifting by mob tier such as minion, boss, et al. No more need to worry if you have enough full incarnates to tackle anything incarnate because mobs wouldn't have levels to try and overcome, they would all be equal level regardless of what level the player character is at.

[Super Atom]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Here's a thought I had.

 

This is world scaling, the way it works in MMO's with it is older enemies scale low, white, while higher enemies would still scale as higher, orange / purple etc. At max level, everything would be bare minimum 50 while still being able to be 54. they would just never be lower. This applies all the way down as you're leveling. It is usually noted when its a more difficult enemy, in WoW they use "elites" and "rares" as ranks of enemies for example.

 

Not saying Coh should, but if it did, we already have blueprints to follow on how to do it properly as other MMO's make use of this already.

 

Edit: Might as well clarify my own thoughts on this suggestion. I think it'd be a waste of dev time for very little benefit to the player base. I personally like world scaling, makes it feel more alive when activities don't become outdated, but coh just wouldn't benefit much by converting to this system.

 

Edited February 11 by Super Atom

[Rudra]

41 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

This is world scaling, the way it works in MMO's with it is older enemies scale low, white, while higher enemies would still scale as higher, orange / purple etc. At max level, everything would be bare minimum 50 while still being able to be 54. they would just never be lower. This applies all the way down as you're leveling. It is usually noted when its a more difficult enemy, in WoW they use "elites" and "rares" as ranks of enemies for example.

Mobs are either leveled or levelless in this game. Scaling comes from their tier: minion, lieutenant, boss, elite boss, archvillain, monster, giant monster, and special classes like Hamidon. Even in WoW, at least the last time I played, enemies had levels. Including the Elites. With mobs like the Elites being about Archvillain tier if I remember correctly. And for the game to go levelless and add a new form of scaling for challenge would most likely require the entire game to be recoded for enemies.

[tidge]

It wasn't what the OP wrote, but @Rudra is correct that the ask is (indirectly) to be able to 'street sweep' whatever enemies, in whatever zone, in order to:

• Never face higher-con opponents, and
• Get drops (including XP and Inf) from all enemies

This outcome isn't really isn't really ideal IMO, because we've already repeatedly seen, over-and-over-again, multiple times, repeatedly, that players will always flock to content where they can get the most reward for the least effort, and if 'street sweeping level-less Skulls in Perez Park' (for example) became the new hotness, we'd see a LOT of players migrate to that kind of content (as opposed to AE farms, PI radio missions, whatever FOTM).

 

One of the core aspects of the CoX model is that the open-world zones really are, for the most part, tied to player level.  In old-school terms: players don't continue running Keep on the Borderlands for their entire D&D career!

 

Generally, the level-less spawns serve two purposes in-game:

1. Zone events, which can happen in (almost) any zone. Critters are level-less to attract interest across entire player base. These enemies self-clear when the event ends.
2. GM add-ons, which have to be defeated in order for the GM event to respawn (also Zig Breakout). These critters are level-less to offer rewards for resetting the event (and these crtitters are somewhat easy to find)

[Ukase]

Finally, my "search-fu" was strong enough to find this, rather than post my own suggestion. 

Example: I'm on a level 13 defender at the moment. I was in Skyway grabbing explores, and I see the Troll Rave going on. I thought, those supa trolls are good xp. I'll go clobber some of those. I ran into a couple, 600XP with the 2xp buff going. Nice! I get to the point on the map, and there's a level 50 dominator laying waste to the bunch. I can't complain, as it's nothing I haven't done myself for various badges. Yet, if I join their team, I'd get badges, fine. But no xp, which is what I'm there for. And..candidly, I would feel stupid asking a level 50 to exemp down to my level, as he's clearly there for the badges, not the xp. Two opposing interests. They don't need to be in opposition, but in this context, they are. 

For events like these, they should be level-less, and scaled to whatever level the player is. This way, I could be SK'd, and get the xp I want. And, the other player would probably welcome the help as it would be a little more difficult than laying waste to grey mobs. The badger in me hates the idea, because I want to knock these out quickly. But the lowbies I play want to grab the XP. So, there's the rub. I think making them level-less is probably more in line with the spirit of the game. 

[Super Atom]

8 hours ago, Rudra said:

Mobs are either leveled or levelless in this game. Scaling comes from their tier: minion, lieutenant, boss, elite boss, archvillain, monster, giant monster, and special classes like Hamidon. Even in WoW, at least the last time I played, enemies had levels. Including the Elites. With mobs like the Elites being about Archvillain tier if I remember correctly. And for the game to go levelless and add a new form of scaling for challenge would most likely require the entire game to be recoded for enemies.

 

They are still leveled yes, WoW was just an example on how to rank enemies as more difficult despite being the same level at max. I dunno bout this "recoded" stuff exactly, but it would be too much work for no benefit.

 

Games that use world scaling, like ESO, have public quests in the open world and events that are worth keeping the scaling for, CoH has very limited use of that in the invasions and holiday events and crotoa monster fight, which already use scaling. They /could/ change it, but it would be a lot of work for no real reason.

 

Sorry OP'

Edited February 11 by Super Atom

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Ukase said:

For events like these, they should be level-less, and scaled to whatever level the player is.

Agreed. Event mobs being levelless is in general, not always, but in general, a good thing. So the Troll Rave event going levelless (at least for the Supa Trolls) makes sense to me. I'm not sure how I feel about that particular event going levelless since I do like to fast clear them for the badges though. (However, if someone is after the badges and the xp? I'll join them to be lower level so they can get a benefit too if they ask me. Otherwise I typically invite them to get the fast credit.)

[tidge]

My thoughts/experiences on Skyway City Troll Raves: Currently, there is only a narrow window for when it is possible for characters to handle the Supa Trolls *and* also get XP from them. The times I've used Supa Trolls for XP (reasonably often for blue side!) I tend to level up from them PDQ. If they were level-less, I'm neither sure it would make sense for characters below level 12 to be "hunting" them, not that above level 16 they should just be anything but fast(ish) defeats for badges seekers. The SupaTrolls are basically threading the needle of level ranges in the zone, just like the ghost freighter spawns.

[megaericzero]

20 hours ago, Starhammer said:

What I 'want' is wholesale, yes, as was suggested by someone, similar to what we see in some other games like ESO, (and to a lesser extent, SWTOR & STO) and so on.

Okay, cool, so I did understand correctly. I asked because it's self-defeating for normal content. For instance:

 

You wouldn't want Banes and Tarantula Mistresses to spawn in Mercy or Port Oakes; they're unfairly tough for characters with such few tools. Conversely, you wouldn't want Wolf Spiders to spawn in Grandville because they'd be too easy; we know from Nu Council that the HC devs are not keen on making mobs easier to plow through at the higher levels for the same reward.

 

What if the lower-level mobs gave less XP at the higher levels? Well now no one wants to fight them because they're not worth the lower reward, and content involving those factions is actively avoided.

 

Alternatively, what if we make them only spawn in their appropriate level range or made versions of them with more/less powers at certain level brackets so they're an appropriate challenge? Well now there's no reason for them to be level-less.

Edited February 11 by megaericzero

[Starhammer]

On 2/10/2025 at 3:46 PM, biostem said:

The so-called "leveless enemies" should be used sparingly and only where appropriate;  Even the likes of Arachnos or Longbow wouldn't dedicate their toughest and most versatile agents, (read:  those that would even-con to higher level players), to what we deem as lower level zones.  It's not about whether these factions have members that are evenly-matched to us, it's just where you would or should run into them that's at odds, here...

"Levels" are an illusion. They are a game tool, not something that should be considered by lore or descriptive environment. What level are you? What level is your mom? What level is the dog next door? What level is the bouncer at that club? Whether Superman is level 1 or 50, thugs are gray to him. Bullets are meaningless. But some chump with a Lexcorps Kryptonite Laser (Quantum Blaster) might ruin his day. Whether Batman is level 1 or level 50, a rough encounter with a SWAT guy might leave him with a dislocated shoulder and cracked ribs, or he might wrestle literal gods and win. And yet, these two beings are still on par with each other.

[biostem]

6 hours ago, Starhammer said:

"Levels" are an illusion.

So is the entire game, but the point is they represent a measure of power or threat.  Yes, a random punk could get a shot off and kill Batman, but the difference is that level 1 punk probably has bad aim, doesn't maintain their equipment, and/or otherwise isn't very capable or not much of a threat.  It's not about "Level 1 Hellion vs Level 50 Scrapper.  Fight!"  It's about that level 1 punk being too busy wetting themselves to even bother trying to take a potshot at that 50...

[Rudra]

7 hours ago, Starhammer said:

"Levels" are an illusion. They are a game tool,

You even counter yourself in your own argument. Levels are a game tool. A means of tracking character progression so game content can be tailored to challenge characters in a manner that most characters should be able to meet.

 

7 hours ago, Starhammer said:

Whether Superman is level 1 or 50, thugs are gray to him. Bullets are meaningless. But some chump with a Lexcorps Kryptonite Laser (Quantum Blaster) might ruin his day. Whether Batman is level 1 or level 50, a rough encounter with a SWAT guy might leave him with a dislocated shoulder and cracked ribs, or he might wrestle literal gods and win.

And yet Superman and other supers in various comics show a clear progression in power over time in their stories. Even before you get to stories about their early years as heroes (or even villains) or their end years. A progression that is presented to us for our characters as character levels.

 

7 hours ago, Starhammer said:

What level are you? What level is your mom? What level is the dog next door? What level is the bouncer at that club?

And what does real life have to do with game mechanics or comic story telling? (Though even in real life, you will see differences in capability that would normally be portrayed by levels in games. In a fight? I would probably be a level 1 victim waiting to happen against that bouncer who may be a level 5 bruiser by virtue of our different capabilities. That bruiser would mop the floor with me, but may struggle against someone trained for combat who very well may be a level 7 soldier. Real life has no levels, but even real life can be presented in a leveled form for the purposes of tracking differences in capability.) (Edit: Hells, levels even get used to refer to people in real life. A communications, navigations, and sensors technician is listed as a 1 level, 3 level, 5 level, 7 level, and 9 level. As a 1 level, that person is considered to be untrained and so is undergoing training to learn his/her/their job. As a 3 level, that person has received rudimentary training and can start learning specific systems under careful guidance. As a 5 level, that person is a competent technician that can do most tasks unsupervised. As a 7 level, that person is a qualified technician and is tasked with training others. As a 9 level, that person is a master of his/her/their craft and oversees the entire section. Those aren't illusions, those are actively measured qualifications.)

 

Edited February 12 by Rudra

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

And yet Superman and other supers in various comics show a clear progression in power over time in their stories.

It's interesting because some games implement a sort of "damage reduction" or threshold mechanic, to simulate how attacks below a certain amount of damage are ignored, (a la Superman and regular bullets).  The issue with those, though, is that such games tend to then bake such mechanics into enemy damage numbers, so that a high level enemy, who may still be using a regular gun, now deals enough damage to overcome that threshold.  I guess what I'm getting at is it isn't feasible to try and truly capture how things behave in comic books, (which, when we come right down to it, is simply writer's fiat), so things like levels, hit checks, and aggro mechanics, are acceptable breaks from "reality"...

[Doc_Scorpion]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Real life has no levels, but even real life can be presented in a leveled form for the purposes of tracking differences in capability.) (Edit: Hells, levels even get used to refer to people in real life. A communications, navigations, and sensors technician is listed as a 1 level, 3 level, 5 level, 7 level, and 9 level.

Yep.  The entire military rank system is basically built around the idea of levels - much more is expected of PO2 (E5) than a PO3 (E4) or SN (E3).

Levels are not an illusion.  IRL, they're not always so clearly and neatly as delineated as they are in game...  But it's foolish to claim they're an illusion.

[Stormwalker]

56 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Yep.  The entire military rank system is basically built around the idea of levels - much more is expected of PO2 (E5) than a PO3 (E4) or SN (E3).

Levels are not an illusion.  IRL, they're not always so clearly and neatly as delineated as they are in game...  But it's foolish to claim they're an illusion.

 

Not just in the military, either.

 

My job title is "Technical Support Engineer Level 3."  This comes with vastly greater responsibilities than someone whose job title is "Technical Support Engineer Level 1" at the same company.  We're both engineers, but I'm a much more experienced engineer and therefore more is expected of me.

[keyguardactive]

As another example of real life levels, Martial Arts.. If you walk into a Karate dojo you can determine who is likely the most skilled by what color their belt cons. 

[srmalloy]

7 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Yep.  The entire military rank system is basically built around the idea of levels - much more is expected of PO2 (E5) than a PO3 (E4) or SN (E3).

This takes me back to "The 213 Things Skippy is No Longer Allowed to Do in the U.S. Army" #61: 'If one soldier has a 2nd Lt bar on his uniform, and I have an E-4 on mine It means he outranks me. It does not mean “I have been promoted three more times than you”.'

[Doc_Scorpion]

28 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

This takes me back to "The 213 Things Skippy is No Longer Allowed to Do in the U.S. Army" #61: 'If one soldier has a 2nd Lt bar on his uniform, and I have an E-4 on mine It means he outranks me. It does not mean “I have been promoted three more times than you”.'

I was once told by my Div O that I couldn't actually ignore junior officers even if they weren't in my chain of command and actually were total idiots.  I had to at least pretend to care.

[Starhammer]

The difference between military RANK and game LEVEL is that upon gaining a promotion, someone in the military doesn't have their accuracy or durability automatically increase. It is absolutely not the same thing. Similarly, JOB TITLE LEVEL 3 does not make you more competent at your job description than you were at JOB TITLE LEVEL 2. Hopefully, the title was awarded upon proof of increased competence or dependability, but it might also just mean having the right cousin, or blackmail photos.

Either way, the back and forth is gaining nobody anything, unless the desire is to teach me I should shut up and stay off the boards.

[Doc_Scorpion]

5 hours ago, Starhammer said:

The difference between military RANK and game LEVEL is that upon gaining a promotion, someone in the military doesn't have their accuracy or durability automatically increase.

Military promotions are accompanied by increased authority (significantly increased at certain steps).  People also treat you differently, I was taken much more seriously as a PO2(E5) than I was as a PO3(E4).  They may not grant game effects, but real life isn't a game.
 

 

5 hours ago, Starhammer said:

Similarly, JOB TITLE LEVEL 3 does not make you more competent at your job description than you were at JOB TITLE LEVEL 2. Hopefully, the title was awarded upon proof of increased competence or dependability, but it might also just mean having the right cousin, or blackmail photos.

Sounds like civilian promotions are pretty much like leveling in game.  Hopefully you get the promotion because you've gained and demonstrated experience and knowledge while performing your job.  Or, maybe, you were just a door sitter in a fire farm and don't even know how to leave Atlas Park.
 

 

5 hours ago, Starhammer said:

Either way, the back and forth is gaining nobody anything, unless the desire is to teach me I should shut up and stay off the boards.

Nobody is trying to "teach" anyone anything.  We're simply having a discussion, and if you no longer wish to participate you can simply stop reading and replying to the thread.  It may or may not carry on without you.

[Rudra]

7 hours ago, Starhammer said:

Either way, the back and forth is gaining nobody anything, unless the desire is to teach me I should shut up and stay off the boards.

You were the one who brought all this up. You, the author of this thread. And now you are upset that people are addressing it?!

 

(Edit: Oh, and the military does work like the video game. In the game, you can get enough experience to be a higher level, but until you see that trainer to be given the higher level, you're still stuck at current level. In the military, in order to get promoted, you have to prove you possess sufficient understanding of your career field as part of your promotion test. So even if you have built up the requisite knowledge base and skills to hold that higher rank, until you go take that test and prove it, you are stuck at current rank. And with that higher rank comes the expectations that you will be able to handle the more difficult tasks that are levied on you. [Edit again: And at the same time, you stop getting tasks like you did at lower ranks, because those are beneath what is now expected of you.] So yeah, it's a lot like the game.)

 

Edited February 13 by Rudra

[tidge]

7 hours ago, Starhammer said:

Either way, the back and forth is gaining nobody anything, unless the desire is to teach me I should shut up and stay off the boards.

 

That is certainly one thing that may have been "learned", but I think the discussion is neither about teaching/learning nor is this forum a zero-sum game. If anything, this sub-forum is practically indistinguishable from a collective zero-results effort!

 

There have been no shortage of forum users with very low "reaction measures" and/or very little engagement history and/or very little play-experience (by whatever measure) and follow a predictable pattern:

1. Something occurs to them in-game that they would like to be different
2. Posts suggestion how that one thing could have been different
3. Gets feedback of the type (a) have you tried this and/or (b) here is the reason for that thing and/or (c) here are the likely consequences of granting what you have requested.

After step 3, there is often either a mad scramble to "patch" the original idea or doubling down, or both.

 

If the original suggestion was solid, then negative reactions will likely simply be (d) "I don't like that". If it wasn't solid, and a person doesn't like it, maybe a user can "patch" their initial specific suggestion, but it still won't make people like it.

 

Doubling-down with a response "but I *really* like my suggestion, why'all so mean?" isn't going to make a poorly-considered suggestion any better, nor will it sway anyone's opinion.

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

And with that higher rank comes the expectations that you will be able to handle the more difficult tasks that are levied on you.

And in the Navy, if you're selected for promotion as an officers, you can be 'frocked', which means you can wear the rank insignia of your new rank, and get all the responsibilities and privileges of the new rank. but don't get the increased pay until the promotion actually processes through BuPers.

[biostem]

9 hours ago, Starhammer said:

The difference between military RANK and game LEVEL is that upon gaining a promotion, someone in the military doesn't have their accuracy or durability automatically increase. It is absolutely not the same thing. Similarly, JOB TITLE LEVEL 3 does not make you more competent at your job description than you were at JOB TITLE LEVEL 2. Hopefully, the title was awarded upon proof of increased competence or dependability, but it might also just mean having the right cousin, or blackmail photos.

While not perfect, I think this summarizes things pretty nicely.  In short, (and especially for an older game), the way things work narratively or for the genre in general, should not or cannot be translated into actual gameplay in a feasible way.  As to the specific topic, the issue is that if the soldiers were translated into CoH, then, yes, that higher rank person would probably now be an LT or a boss, with all the extra tohit, dmg, res, etc, that entails...