Blaster Epic Pool Def/Resist Toggles

[Icecomet]

Good morning GM's, Devs & Heroes!  I was curious to ask why we don't normalize the epic pools (from a blaster perspective) where the defense/resist toggle can be taken on the first choice?  Having to waste an extra power just to stay on "theme" doesn't seem fair (I am Ice, Ice, Ice).  Case in point, with ICE, I have to take 2 powers vs. soul mastery which can be taken on the first selection on top of which, not only do I have to waste an extra power, I have to wait until 41 for Ice/Leviathan, 38 for Fire/Force/Electric vs. being able to be 35 for the other 3 patron pools.  I get that the patron pools require 'unlocking', however, nowadays with any of the 4 missions unlocking them all, it would seem to me that we should just normalize the epic pools and just allow the toggle to be taken on the 1st selection so people can build the theme/build they want fairly across the spectrum.

 

Current requirements for the Blaster Epic pool def/resist powers are here:

 

Blaster Epic Pool	Level to obtain	Additional requirements
Arsenal	35	None
Dark	35	None
Electric	38	requires 1 power taken before it
Fire	38	requires 1 power taken before it
Force	38	requires 1 power taken before it
Ice	41	requires 1 power taken before it
Leviathan	41	requires 1 of 4 missions be completed & 1 power taken before it
Mace	35	requires 1 of 4 missions be completed
Mu	35	requires 1 of 4 missions be completed
Soul	35	requires 1 of 4 missions be completed

 

Thank you for your time and I would appreciate some serious consideration in fixing this discrepancy.

Edited Saturday at 08:38 PM by Icecomet

[FupDup]

This is definitely one of, if not the biggest, balancing issue among epic pools and it triggers me deeply that this didn't get addressed during the last balancing pass to them. Even if the individual powers are largely fine, the unlocking order can make a huge difference because it can be a big sacrifice to squeeze in an extra "filler" power. 

 

I would also apply this logic to the melee AT pools. Mu and Soul for example can pick up a strong ST attack at level 35 with no prerequisite and then pick up a strong AOE after that. All of the others should mirror this. 

 

Sentinels, for all of their many flaws, are at least very consistent in their epic pool structure so the powers can stand out on their own merits instead of being held back by dumb structuring problems. 

Edited Saturday at 08:42 PM by FupDup

[biostem]

Variety is the spice of life - not everything should be in rigid lock-step.  It's no different than how some blaster primaries have more or fewer AoEs, how some have faster animations or more desirable secondary effect;  Every power pick has an opportunity cost, and that must be considered when making your selection...

[Icecomet]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

Variety is the spice of life - not everything should be in rigid lock-step.  It's no different than how some blaster primaries have more or fewer AoEs, how some have faster animations or more desirable secondary effect;  Every power pick has an opportunity cost, and that must be considered when making your selection...

 

Honestly, what you said there makes NO sense.  These are power pools and they should be consistent across the board.  By your logic, the brutes and tankers should get a hasten that only lasts 45 seconds vs others it lasting 120s.  NO, this is a power pool, they should be consistent in the level selection requirements.  Nobody is talking about AT Primary or Secondary here, nor are the merits of their effectiveness.

 

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, Icecomet said:

Honestly, what you said there makes NO sense.  These are power pools and they should be consistent across the board.  By your logic, the brutes and tankers should get a hasten that only lasts 45 seconds vs others it lasting 120s.  NO, this is a power pool, they should be consistent in the level selection requirements.  Nobody is talking about AT Primary or Secondary here, nor are the merits of their effectiveness.

Different ATs already have different power modifiers, and it's been like that since launch.  Different ATs also get the same sets with various changes beyond the aforementioned modifiers.  APP/PPPs are also treated differently than primary or secondary sets - heck, look at the recharge times of holds in those pools for melee ATs vs their primary power set equivalent...

Edited Saturday at 08:49 PM by biostem

[FupDup]

The thing is that the epic pools with more prereqs generally aren't "different," they just make you pay more to get a similar (or even weaker) end result. If they did actually offer greater strength to offset the higher investment required, then at least I could stomach it. Either equalize the investment cost or make the higher investment beget higher power, pick one. Having higher investment for equal or lesser power is extremely stupid. 

[Icecomet]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

Different ATs already have different power modifiers, and it's been like that since launch.  Different ATs also get the same sets with various changes beyond the aforementioned modifiers.  APP/PPPs are also treated differently than primary or secondary sets - heck, look at the recharge times of hold in those pools for melee ATs vs their primary power set equivalent...

 

Yes, but again we aren't talking about AT powers (primary/secondary), these are power pools, that is the crux of the discussion, power pools always have been consistent across the board regardless of AT or other powers taken, and the other of those epic pools should also be consistent.

 

Take Acrobatics, from the Leaping pool, everybody and anybody can take it at 14 if they've taken 2 other leaping pool powers, no exceptions.  The Epic pools should be no different.  Each epic pool offers different pros and cons, which again, aren't being debated here, simply the order of the power selections.  I do understand your point, but I think you're talking about AT's and their primary and secondary powers whereas the power pools are 100% consistent across the board in terms of their effectiveness and pre-requisites to take those powers.

 

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Icecomet said:

Yes, but again we aren't talking about AT powers (primary/secondary), these are power pools,

No, we're talking about Ancillary and/or Patron power pools, which are not only AT-specific from inception, but also vary wildly in what each provides.  You must compare like-for-like.  Regular power pools are, indeed, consistent from AT-to-AT.

Edited Saturday at 08:52 PM by biostem

[Glacier Peak]

Variety is preferable to me over homogeneous power choices. 

 

And Pool Powers use AT modifiers, so each power behaves differently for each Archetype. 

[Icecomet]

15 minutes ago, biostem said:

No, we're talking about Ancillary and/or Patron power pools, which are not only AT-specific from inception, but also vary wildly in what each provides.  You must compare like-for-like.  Regular power pools are, indeed, consistent from AT-to-AT.

 

My post is about blasters specifically, NOT any other AT, the selection criteria and availability should be consistent for blasters across the epic pools.  I am not proposing any other AT changes as I am not very familar with most of them because I play blasters 99.9% of the time.

 

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Icecomet said:

My post is about blasters specifically, NOT any other AT, the selection criteria and availability should be consistent for blasters across the epic pools.  I am not proposing any other AT changes as I am not very familar with most of them because I play blasters 99.9% of the time.

You cannot look at one AT in isolation.  Since APPs/PPPs being consistent across all sets for any given AT has never been the case, there is no precedent for what you're asking, either.

[Wavicle]

Blaster Secondaries don't all get Build Up (those that get it at all) all at the same level. The Epic sets are exactly the same. They AREN'T Power Pools of the same kind you unlock at level 4. They are Tertiary power sets.

 

I think an argument can be made that the sets overall still need additional balancing, but what we have in this thread is not an argument that backs up the claim they should unlock similar powers at similar levels, but instead an assertion that they ought to be structured in that way without an argument to back it up.

[Icecomet]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Blaster Secondaries don't all get Build Up (those that get it at all) all at the same level. The Epic sets are exactly the same. They AREN'T Power Pools of the same kind you unlock at level 4. They are Tertiary power sets.

 

I think an argument can be made that the sets overall still need additional balancing, but what we have in this thread is not an argument that backs up the claim they should unlock similar powers at similar levels, but instead an assertion that they ought to be structured in that way without an argument to back it up.

 

I always avoid the forums for just this sort of garbage, instead of letting the powers that be evaluate input and make a decision, everybody has to chip in their 2 cents and try to tear it down, you can always count on this place for that.

 

The point is fairness in terms of a themed character, in my case, all Ice, I have to spend 2 powers in that epic pool just to have my ice armor to complete my look/theme, whereas others do not.  If they'd just allow us to customize the aura of those epic pools to look however we want them to look (i.e. choose from the list of all the epic/ancillary fx), that would be fine too and actually would be even better because I could take a set I'd much rather have but don't because it would break the look/theme of the toon.  It doesn't have to be the ice armor itself because its not giving me anything over anything else, in fact, its giving me LESS than a few of the others that can be gotten at 35.  So, either way, make the effect of the armors fully customizable or allow that toggle that most everybody is going for be obtainable at the same level.

 

Your point about build-up is a not even related to this, I am not even sure why that was brought up.  Primary and Secondary powers aren't the topic of discussion and comparing them to an epic/ancillary pool is pointless and without a correlation that can or should be drawn.

 

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Icecomet said:

I always avoid the forums for just this sort of garbage, instead of letting the powers that be evaluate input and make a decision, everybody has to chip in their 2 cents and try to tear it down, you can always count on this place for that.

These forums are not for developers-only.  If you don't like feedback, then that's on you. 

 

2 minutes ago, Icecomet said:

The point is fairness in terms of a themed character

As stated multiple times already, it's not about your perception of what is or is not "fair" - It is about APPs/PPPs offering abilities your chosen AT would not normally have access to.  If you want an ice-themed character with ranged attacks and armor, roll a sentinel.  If you want a blaster with armor, then you're going to have to make do with what's available.  It should also be noted that frozen armor provides some resist in addition to the defense, meaning you can also slot the global +def IOs in it.

 

6 minutes ago, Icecomet said:

Your point about build-up is a not even related to this, I am not even sure why that was brought up.

This only serves to belie your lack of understanding about powersets - not every powerset follows the same pattern, nor do they include the same types of powers or where those powers sit within said powerset, and this is/was a very intentional decision.

 

[Rudra]

18 minutes ago, Icecomet said:

I always avoid the forums for just this sort of garbage, instead of letting the powers that be evaluate input and make a decision, everybody has to chip in their 2 cents and try to tear it down, you can always count on this place for that.

This is the Suggestions and Feedback forum. All player suggestions are subject to player feedback. In the "Concerning this forum..." thread pinned 5 down on the first page, it explains that all suggestions will be commented on by other players. It is not an attack on you, but other players giving their take on the proposal.

[megaericzero]

Sorry, the thread's a bit TLDR for me but have you considered factors like Arsenal's shield being passive but less potent or Dark's resisting heat/cold/energy/negative but NOT the standard smashing/lethal?

[biostem]

6 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Sorry, the thread's a bit TLDR for me but have you considered factors like Arsenal's shield being passive but less potent or Dark's resisting heat/cold/energy/negative but NOT the standard smashing/lethal?

 Leviathan Mastery also offers a cold-themed armor, (though that one is even further down in the power set).  Mace Mastery offers a S/L/En defense shield as a T1 pick.  I suspect, (though of course I'm open to being proven wrong), that the OP wants an ice-theme, defense-granting armor toggle with zero prerequisite, and while I can appreciate that, that isn't within the realm of what is available, so instead of adjusting or adapting their build, they'd rather try and make the case here for why things should be changed to accommodate them...

[Icecomet]

3 hours ago, biostem said:

 Leviathan Mastery also offers a cold-themed armor, (though that one is even further down in the power set).  Mace Mastery offers a S/L/En defense shield as a T1 pick.  I suspect, (though of course I'm open to being proven wrong), that the OP wants an ice-theme, defense-granting armor toggle with zero prerequisite, and while I can appreciate that, that isn't within the realm of what is available, so instead of adjusting or adapting their build, they'd rather try and make the case here for why things should be changed to accommodate them...

 

No, that isn't what the original post was suggesting and if what I suggested wasn't clear, then don't bother about it, sheesh.

[biostem]

8 hours ago, Icecomet said:

I was curious to ask why we don't normalize the epic pools (from a blaster perspective) where the defense/resist toggle can be taken on the first choice?  Having to waste an extra power just to stay on "theme" doesn't seem fair (I am Ice, Ice, Ice).

 

4 hours ago, biostem said:

I suspect, (though of course I'm open to being proven wrong), that the OP wants an ice-theme, defense-granting armor toggle with zero prerequisite

 

41 minutes ago, Icecomet said:

No, that isn't what the original post was suggesting and if what I suggested wasn't clear, then don't bother about it, sheesh.

 

Of particular note are the parts about "where the defense/resist toggle can be taken on the first choice" and "to stay on "theme" doesn't seem fair (I am Ice, Ice, Ice)"...

[Stormwalker]

12 hours ago, FupDup said:

This is definitely one of, if not the biggest, balancing issue among epic pools and it triggers me deeply that this didn't get addressed during the last balancing pass to them. Even if the individual powers are largely fine, the unlocking order can make a huge difference because it can be a big sacrifice to squeeze in an extra "filler" power. 

 

I would also apply this logic to the melee AT pools. Mu and Soul for example can pick up a strong ST attack at level 35 with no prerequisite and then pick up a strong AOE after that. All of the others should mirror this. 

 

Sentinels, for all of their many flaws, are at least very consistent in their epic pool structure so the powers can stand out on their own merits instead of being held back by dumb structuring problems. 

 

I would rather the melee AT pools NOT all mirror Mu and Soul.  Being able to pick up Conserve Power at 35 is very, very, very useful on some melee builds and I would very much rather not lose that.

 

In fact, on my characters that go Energy Mastery, I almost never take an attack at all (I can only think of one exception, who took Energy Torrent... as a mule for a purple set.  She never uses it.).  But I pretty much always take Conserve Power and Physical Perfection, and frequently take Focused Accuracy.  So I have no desire to see Energy Mastery rearranged as it would break many of my builds.

Edited Sunday at 08:46 AM by Stormwalker

[tidge]

Re: Epic/Patron pools: I'm perfectly ok with the variety of powers in those pools, including what each provides, what level they appear at, and which enhancement sets can be slotted in each.

 

I occasionally get the same feels as the OP, but it is almost never about "looks", or even wanting to toggle an armor ASAP (at level 35)... I'm almost always considering those Epic/Patron powers as a place to slot an enhancement set. Read this as: almost entirely a min-max decision on my part, motivated by my personal desire to have "essentially complete" characters before level 35 using powers from the primary, secondary and non-Epic pools.

 

Specific to Blaster's Ice Mastery... I rather like the variety, progression, and slotting options for it as a set for Blasters. I certainly wouldn't consider either Flash Freeze or Snow Storm to be "wasted picks" for an Ice/Ice/Ice thematic Blaster. If I didn't like either of those powers for thematic reasons, I think I'd also dislike Hoarfrost and Hibernate too... which would probably just drive this guy (points to self) to another Epic/Patron set to get an "armor" toggle.

[Icecomet]

4 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

I would rather the melee AT pools NOT all mirror Mu and Soul.  Being able to pick up Conserve Power at 35 is very, very, very useful on some melee builds and I would very much rather not lose that.

 

In fact, on my characters that go Energy Mastery, I almost never take an attack at all (I can only think of one exception, who took Energy Torrent... as a mule for a purple set.  She never uses it.).  But I pretty much always take Conserve Power and Physical Perfection, and frequently take Focused Accuracy.  So I have no desire to see Energy Mastery rearranged as it would break many of my builds.

 

For the umpteenth time, I was only asking that the blaster epic pools all allow a T1 choice for the def/res toggle, no other AT pool arrangements were asked for or suggested.

 

Yes, it's also to allow for a character to have their def/res toggle at 35 consistently as well as the 'themed' part.  I don't know any blasters that don't take one of them, though I am sure there are probably some out there so I wouldn't want to presume that everybody uses them, but why shouldn't we, regardless of which pool we want to use have the same ability to have it at 35?  It's a simple concept and not overly complicated that everybody here is hyperventilating about like it's somehow going to make blasters supplant tankers and brutes as a meat shield.

 

Edited Sunday at 01:10 PM by Icecomet

[Aracknight]

Oh look.  Right on track.

 

Idea, followed by shitting on idea in condescending fashion while quoting rule empowering shitting on idea in condescending fashion when questioned on why the shitting on idea in condescending fashion is happening.

 

Thread devolution until next idea.

 

Repeat.

 

PS.  I like the idea OP.  Personally I think every set whether primary, secondary, or eighteenthiary should be balanced in this exact fashion.  Snipe at x level.  Status Resistance at x level.  Build up at x level.  But I'm monstrous like that.

 

 

[Kara Kinesis]

17 hours ago, Icecomet said:

Good morning GM's, Devs & Heroes!  I was curious to ask why we don't normalize the epic pools (from a blaster perspective) where the defense/resist toggle can be taken on the first choice?  Having to waste an extra power just to stay on "theme" doesn't seem fair (I am Ice, Ice, Ice).  Case in point, with ICE, I have to take 2 powers vs. soul mastery which can be taken on the first selection on top of which, not only do I have to waste an extra power, I have to wait until 41 for Ice/Leviathan, 38 for Fire/Force/Electric vs. being able to be 35 for the other 3 patron pools.  I get that the patron pools require 'unlocking', however, nowadays with any of the 4 missions unlocking them all, it would seem to me that we should just normalize the epic pools and just allow the toggle to be taken on the 1st selection so people can build the theme/build they want fairly across the spectrum.

 

Current requirements for the Blaster Epic pool def/resist powers are here:

 

Blaster Epic Pool	Level to obtain	Additional requirements
Arsenal	35	None
Dark	35	None
Electric	38	requires 1 power taken before it
Fire	38	requires 1 power taken before it
Force	38	requires 1 power taken before it
Ice	41	requires 1 power taken before it
Leviathan	41	requires 1 of 4 missions be completed & 1 power taken before it
Mace	35	requires 1 of 4 missions be completed
Mu	35	requires 1 of 4 missions be completed
Soul	35	requires 1 of 4 missions be completed

 

Thank you for your time and I would appreciate some serious consideration in fixing this discrepancy.

 

This is a GREAT idea because I too have found the tiering order on the blaster tertiary pools to be confounding, especially for some of them that are weaker than the others yet they require more commitment in order to get it.

 

I too build a lot of my toons with a theme in mind and would like to have the toggle at 35 like any other blaster toon.

 

Great suggestion and I hope it gets traction and we can see the blaster tertiary tiering normalized.

 

[tidge]

35 minutes ago, Icecomet said:

 

For the umpteenth time, I was only asking that the blaster epic pools all allow a T1 choice for the def/res toggle, no other AT pool arrangements were asked for or suggested.

 

Yes, it's also to allow for a character to have their def/res toggle at 35 consistently as well as the 'themed' part. 

 

 

The non-patron Epic Pools don't all get a def/res toggle at level 35, nor do the available toggles all take the same sets. (I'll ignore the actual effects of the toggle, except in one case).

 

Arsenal's Body Armor, level 35 Auto power Resistance sets only

Dark's Murky Cloud, level 35 toggle power Resistance sets only

Electric's Charged Armor, level 38 toggle power, Resistance sets only

Fire's Fire Shield, level 38 toggle power, Resistance sets only

Force Mastery's Temp Invulnerability, level 38 toggle Resistance sets only (PFF is a level 35 defensive toggle, but it doesn't allow players to make attacks)

Ice's Frozen Armor, level 41 toggle that allows both Resistance and Defense sets.

 

At level 41... Frozen Armor looks like an outlier, but it provides better options than the other Epics, and IMO even Scorpion Shield's (level 35) options. An enhanceable 10% S/L defense is excellent! The only similar options for Blasters come from long-recharge pool powers that require even more pre-requisites (e.g. Unleash Potential)

 

If you want to propose shuffling the order of the power picks, there does need to be an accompanying proposal as to how to rebalance the set.

 

3 minutes ago, Kara Kinesis said:

 

This is a GREAT idea because I too have found the tiering order on the blaster tertiary pools to be confounding, especially for some of them that are weaker than the others yet they require more commitment in order to get it.

 

I too build a lot of my toons with a theme in mind and would like to have the toggle at 35 like any other blaster toon.

 

Great suggestion and I hope it gets traction and we can see the blaster tertiary tiering normalized.

 

 

Based on the non-Patron sets, it would be far more likely that the "toggle" would end up at level 38 across-the-board, which would still require a pre-requisite power pick. The toggle powers currently available only above level 38 would have to sacrifice some things.