Respecs for Incarnate Abilities / Powers

[TheMoneyMaker]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

You can unslot and re-slot regular powers for free, (as long as you're out of combat)???

Free respecs, respec recipes.....yeah, pretty much. The only "loss" is if the way you choose your powers leaves you with enhancements that don't fit in any of your new power choices, but you don't actually lose those enhancements. You can keep them, sell them, or give them freely to friends or strangers as you see fit.

[biostem]

Just now, TheMoneyMaker said:

Free respecs, respec recipes.....yeah, pretty much. The only "loss" is if the way you choose your powers leaves you with enhancements that don't fit in any of your new power choices, but you don't actually lose those enhancements. You can keep them, sell them, or give them freely to friends or strangers as you see fit.

Way to move the goalposts.  Buying or otherwise obtaining a respec via a recipe or otherwise, is not "free" in the same sense as how you can craft and freely swap in or out every incarnate power.  If you could only take 1 such power/ability and not unslot or replace them without a full respec, then I'd say you had a leg to stand on...

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

8 minutes ago, biostem said:

You can unslot and re-slot regular powers for free, (as long as you're out of combat)???

Free respecs, respec recipes.....yeah, pretty much. The only "loss" is if the way you choose your powers leaves you with enhancements that don't fit in any of your new power choices, but you don't actually lose those enhancements. You can keep them, sell them, or give them freely to friends or strangers as you see fit.

That comparison doesn't hold up though. We get 1 freespec every 10 levels(?). Then no more freespecs. Any other respec must be acquired. Incarnate powers can be changed all day every 5 minutes without having to do anything other than wait out the time. Hells, even if you only have 1 power for that incarnate ability, you can remove that power and then re-add that power as often as you want every 5 minutes without having to acquire anything to enable that.

[srmalloy]

6 hours ago, lemming said:

I mainly want to get rid of an accidentally clicked on T1...

Or a T1 that you picked because it gave you a bonus you wanted more than the T1 of the line you really wanted, and then kept only until you got the other line up to where it gave you the bonus(es) you wanted, at which point you sacked the interim T1.

[Rigged]

I like the idea to refund only in incarnate salvage.

 

Let us be honest here, for newbies they could have messed up and gathering up a Very Rare isn't just a simple matter. If you accidentally create the wrong power or realize that the power you wanted isn't what you thought it was, you're sunk for a lot of time. I recall once wasting a Rare salvage myself because I crafted it in the wrong tree.

 

A salvage refund has an inherent cost in terms of conversion that isn't that crippling. A VR conversion costs 150 threads. The point is that you can't just change your incarnates willy-nilly, enough at least that you have to commit to a semi-permanent build, but not punish overmuch if a mistake is made or a change is desired.

[lemming]

On refunding incarnate salvage which I don't think would be breaking anything:

So, no threads or Emp merits is easy enough.

 

There a few different ways to go:

1) Refund just what that Tier costs; IE: Assault Radial T4 gives back: Nanotech, Meditation, and a Forbidden.

2) Refund the Tier, and for a T3, pick randomly what two T3s make it.

 

This is really only complicated at the T4 level, since I doubt that info is kept of which T3 you had to make the T4.

 

I think putting a cost for doing this is reasonable.

We can either do the similar cost as a sidegrade:  2,6,30,150  to be comparable, though I think the Rare & VR are a bit overpriced.

 

[biostem]

2 hours ago, Rigged said:

Let us be honest here, for newbies they could have messed up and gathering up a Very Rare isn't just a simple matter. If you accidentally create the wrong power or realize that the power you wanted isn't what you thought it was, you're sunk for a lot of time.

If we are indeed talking about "newbies", and since this is about incarnate abilities, you'll be getting threads or empyreans every time you fill up all your XP pips, so it shouldn't be that long, and it's not like your character is crippled, even if you took/crafted the "wrong" ability...

[TheMoneyMaker]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

That comparison doesn't hold up though. We get 1 freespec every 10 levels(?). Then no more freespecs. Any other respec must be acquired. Incarnate powers can be changed all day every 5 minutes without having to do anything other than wait out the time. Hells, even if you only have 1 power for that incarnate ability, you can remove that power and then re-add that power as often as you want every 5 minutes without having to acquire anything to enable that.

So give out a handful of free incarnate respecs... maybe as additional rewards for vet levels.  Boom, limited free.

[battlewraith]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

If we are indeed talking about "newbies", and since this is about incarnate abilities, you'll be getting threads or empyreans every time you fill up all your XP pips, so it shouldn't be that long, and it's not like your character is crippled, even if you took/crafted the "wrong" ability...

 

So you're basically arguing that it's preferable to waste people's time rather than allow them to respec something that they earned because.....why again?

You think there should be a tax on making a mistake or changing your mind about something? 

 

It's a respec. They aren't getting anything they didn't already pay for. Yeah I can slot and unslot incarnate powers. So what?

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

So you're basically arguing that it's preferable to waste people's time rather than allow them to respec something that they earned because.....why again?

You think there should be a tax on making a mistake or changing your mind about something? 

 

It's a respec. They aren't getting anything they didn't already pay for. Yeah I can slot and unslot incarnate powers. So what?

You keep glossing over how incarnate abilities function fundamentally different than other powers.  There is literally no tradeoff for crafting multiple different abilities, and you can eventually craft and thereby gain access to, every single ability available.  The only reason one would need to respec them is because they want something "now", in which case, there should be some opportunity cost for such a convenience.  I fully admit that there should be a better tutorial for the incarnate stuff to make it clearer and easier to use. but slowing down just a little to actually read what you've selected before clicking craft/create goes a loooong way in avoiding any mistakes...

Edited Tuesday at 03:03 AM by biostem

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, Rigged said:

A salvage refund has an inherent cost in terms of conversion that isn't that crippling. A VR conversion costs 150 threads. The point is that you can't just change your incarnates willy-nilly, enough at least that you have to commit to a semi-permanent build, but not punish overmuch if a mistake is made or a change is desired.

 

I think people conjure up problems where there really are none. As it stands now, I think most people pick the same incarnates most of the time in order to get the most bang for their buck. I think the result of them going willy nilly is that they would experiment with less optimal setups and I really can't see any reason to be concerned about this.

[TheMoneyMaker]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

You keep glossing over how incarnate abilities function fundamentally different than other powers.  There is literally no tradeoff for crafting multiple different abilities, and you can eventually craft and thereby gain access to, every single ability available.  The only reason one would need to respec them is because they want something "now", in which case, there should be some opportunity cost for such a convenience.  I fully admit that there should be a better tutorial for the incarnate stuff to make it clearer and easier to use. but slowing down just a little to actually read what you've selected before clicking craft/create goes a loooong way in avoiding any mistakes...

So your complaint is that people who "want something now" with regard to incarnate changes are somehow different that people who want a regular power respec change "now" are somehow different because people can earn different kinds of incarnate powers in each slot. I think there's already a "not now" feature in the incarnate sphere with cool down times on changing stuff out, and especially if you've used powers or been attacked recently from when you try to equip something new.

 

[biostem]

Just now, TheMoneyMaker said:

So your complaint is that people who "want something now" with regard to incarnate changes are somehow different that people who want a regular power respec change "now" are somehow different because people can earn different kinds of incarnate powers in each slot. I think there's already a "not now" feature in the incarnate sphere with cool down times on changing stuff out, and especially if you've used powers or been attacked recently from when you try to equip something new.

If you don't understand opportunity costs and delayed gratification, then I can see why this wouldn't make sense...

[TheMoneyMaker]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

If you don't understand opportunity costs and delayed gratification, then I can see why this wouldn't make sense...

If we were playing a game that required a subscription of paying customers to keep playing to keep the game alive, it might make a little more sense. But this is no longer a premium game. The rules have changed.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

If we were playing a game that required a subscription of paying customers to keep playing to keep the game alive, it might make a little more sense. But this is no longer a premium game. The rules have changed.

Again we circle right back - you still have to level your character to get to those real juicy powers that come later on.  Why can't I just get my T9 at level 1?  Why can't I just instantly swap my primary and secondary at any time?  It is a matter of learning the game's mechanics and systems, looking not just at what is available now, but what you'll have to work up to later, and planning your build accordingly.  If all you want is instant gratification, this is not the game for you, but I can tell you this - if you do a little planning, bide your time, and use your in-game resources wisely, the resulting character will be so much more satisfying to play, because you put in "the work", which I should point out, is a lot less of a time commitment than it used to be on live.  Further, you can always create a temporal warrior, (those instant PvP-only 50s), because I think they already have all incarnates unlocked, or just go over to the test server and insta-level a character to 50, if you want to test things before committing to your actual character...

[battlewraith]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

You keep glossing over how incarnate abilities function fundamentally different than other powers.  There is literally no tradeoff for crafting multiple different abilities, and you can eventually craft and thereby gain access to, every single ability available.  The only reason one would need to respec them is because they want something "now", in which case, there should be some opportunity cost for such a convenience.  I fully admit that there should be a better tutorial for the incarnate stuff to make it clearer and easier to use. but slowing down just a little to actually read what you;ve selected before clicking craft/create goes a loooong way in avoiding any mistakes...

 

You keep bringing up that they a function differently and it still doesn't have any significance to me. The point of a respec is to avoid the hassle of grinding one. You have a respec for characters for this reason. People make mistakes, change their minds, powers get nerfed, etc.--the respec is so that you don't need to do that effort again.

 

Your rebuttal is basically saying "hey this is different because, for a little more hassle, you can stop using the one you made and make another one." You're missing the whole point of having a respec option. 

 

As for delayed gratification, opportunity costs, etc. ... maybe you simply have more time to waste on meaningless grind? I don't. And I suspect that a lot of players simply move on to something else if they make a mistake or don't like an outcome. Or stick to safe choices. 

[Rudra]

23 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

If we were playing a game that required a subscription of paying customers to keep playing to keep the game alive, it might make a little more sense. But this is no longer a premium game. The rules have changed.

Whether a game is subscription (premium) or free, there is an incentive to find ways to get the players to play. (Edit: And when you get to the end of the game, seeing as how paid devs on full time development schedules of even gaming companies can't keep pushing out new content frequently, that means a grind for the best things. In CoX's case, that means incarnate powers and high demand [high cost] enhancements.) That doesn't change. So how have the rules changed?

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:35 AM by Rudra

[Akisan]

59 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

If we were playing a game that required a subscription of paying customers to keep playing to keep the game alive, it might make a little more sense. But this is no longer a premium game. The rules have changed.

 

The game is different from Live, yes, but it still isn't a sandbox.  If you want to load up your toon and try all the things for free, that's what the test server is for.  That same flexibility on the live servers has to be earned.

 

1 hour ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

So give out a handful of free incarnate respecs... maybe as additional rewards for vet levels.  Boom, limited free.

 

This would be why I suggested a Notice of the Well - they're not worth much when converted to Threads, and it's pretty easy to get one per week by running the WST.

[arcane]

battlewraith in this thread - it’s not a problem if this change renders the hard work of many players to be a complete waste of time

 

also battlewraith in this thread - you think it’s okay to just waste people’s time?

 

🤦‍♂️

[biostem]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

As for delayed gratification, opportunity costs, etc. ... maybe you simply have more time to waste on meaningless grind? I don't.

Are... are you arguing about wasting time, while discussing a 20+ year old video game on the internet?  In the time you've spent arguing for this idea, here, you cold have run multiple Tinpex's and gotten the levels or component necessary for that incarnate ability you wanted to craft...

[Wavicle]

The system is designed in such a way that this is totally unnecessary. Make the powers, then you can switch in and out when you want. That is and has always been the design. I see no reason for this at all.

[TheMoneyMaker]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Whether a game is subscription (premium) or free, there is an incentive to find ways to get the players to play. (Edit: And when you get to the end of the game, seeing as how paid devs on full time development schedules of even gaming companies can't keep pushing out new content frequently, that means a grind for the best things. In CoX's case, that means incarnate powers and high demand [high cost] enhancements.) That doesn't change. So how have the rules changed?

 

Some people may play because they enjoy the grind. Others do not; they play because they enjoy the game or the sense of nostalgia. And if the HC devs wanted us to grind and earn every little thing for the sake of keeping us playing, I don't think they would have unlocked capes, auras, all costume parts, and pretty much every other aspect of the game. But hey, if you like the idea of grind grind grind to get the next thing, I think there are other servers that cater to what you're interested in. Maybe you should go look into those.

[TheMoneyMaker]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

The system is designed in such a way that this is totally unnecessary. Make the powers, then you can switch in and out when you want. That is and has always been the design. I see no reason for this at all.

Lores.  Every so often, I try out something new.  Sometimes I like, sometimes I hate.  And when I pick something I hate, it does not enhance my enjoyment of the game in any way, shape, or form to have to wait until I build up the resources to make a new one. Is it necessary? No. Desirable? Yes. If anyone doesn't want it, there would be zero expectation that they would have to use it.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Lores.  Every so often, I try out something new.  Sometimes I like, sometimes I hate.  And when I pick something I hate, it does not enhance my enjoyment of the game in any way, shape, or form to have to wait until I build up the resources to make a new one. Is it necessary? No. Desirable? Yes. If anyone doesn't want it, there would be zero expectation that they would have to use it.

 

That's what the test server is for.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

And if the HC devs wanted us to grind and earn every little thing for the sake of keeping us playing, I don't think they would have unlocked capes, auras,

Capes and auras were unlocked back on Live. Not by HC.

 

1 hour ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

all costume parts

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the costume parts were unlocked by... SCORE?. So, still not by HC. (Edit again: Oh yeah. HC added costume parts, just auras and assorted character effects if I remember correctly but still costume parts, to the game that require grinding or purchasing lots of Prismatics to unlock.)

 

1 hour ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

and pretty much every other aspect of the game.

 Could you clarify this?

 

1 hour ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Some people may play because they enjoy the grind. Others do not; they play because they enjoy the game or the sense of nostalgia.

This part has nothing to do with my statement. Players play for their own reasons. Game developers however have to look at ways to keep people playing the game. Even on a free to play game. Two completely different approaches to any game.

 

1 hour ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

But hey, if you like the idea of grind grind grind to get the next thing, I think there are other servers that cater to what you're interested in. Maybe you should go look into those.

So you choose to play that card? Then let's turn it around. There are other servers that let you jump straight to 50 and do several other things you seem to prefer. So you have the option to play there as well. If you are going to tell someone to go play on a different server rather than on a server that person currently enjoys? You've surrendered your position. I'm not going to any of the other servers. So kindly don't ask me to go to another server unless you intend to follow your own advice.

 

Edit: You know, as far as the OP itself goes? I said my piece. I'm not going to argue for it or against it. Your arguments in this thread so far however? Demand responses.

 

Edited Tuesday at 08:23 AM by Rudra