AE Giant Monsters

[Ultimo]

I don't know if it's been suggested before, but I was making a mission based on the Norse myth of Ragnarok for the AE the other day, and thought to myself how a certain character would be better represented as a Giant Monster (both Surt and Ymir).  Being Man-Sized (ie. up to 7 or 8 feet tall) just doesn't work if you're making a character who is supposed to be a GIANT.

 

Therefore, my suggestion is, let us make custom Giant Monsters!

[Forager]

This is a fantastic idea. The Idea Police will probably be in here to tell you why it can't be done and blame "the code" but we already know it can be done. They can spawn giant versions of player characters already, so there can't be too much standing between the costume creator and GM size.

[Ultimo]

Perhaps a couple of variants of Giant Monsters...  After some testing in the AE, I find Giant Monsters are pretty ridiculously overpowered, so their use in arcs would be severely limited.  Perhaps an AV version of Giant Monsters could be created... basically, just a larger body type, but the enemy is still AV level.

 

This doesn't mean creating AV versions of existing Giant Monsters, I wouldn't want to trivialize those.  It would just be something for custom characters.

[Rudra]

There were multiple AE arcs I was working on (back on Live when I was making AE story arcs for fun before I realized no one played story arcs in AE) where I really wanted to have a GM in it. However, I have a question I would very much like an answer to before I say I support or oppose the OP: Do GMs in the game give xp/inf' rewards for being GMs on top of their perceived difficulty for abilities? The reason why I am asking is because for a while there back on Live, green mito' farms were the rage. There were multiple versions of it and everyone that was farming ran just those. Because the green mitos did not fight back and as long as you overcame their healing, they awarded massive amounts of xp and inf'. Then the Live devs said 'enough' and the green mito's were removed. I think that was but don't really remember if that was why the Live devs told us 'no' for custom GMs in AE, to prevent us from making our own versions of green mitos to farm. So if GMs do give xp/inf' rewards for being GMs even before you get into their xp/inf' rewards for available attacks, then I have to say 'no' as well and oppose the OP. If they don't and the only way to get rewards from them is to give them attacks commensurate with the given reward, then I support the OP.

 

Edit again: Oh, right, I forgot. Hang on:

WEEEOOOO WEEEOOOO WEEEOOOO!

This is the Idea Police! We have the place surrounded! Come out with your brains empty!

 

Edited Monday at 12:00 AM by Rudra
Edited to correct "an" to "and".

[Forager]

That's an awfully complicated way to say you think the rewards should be balanced.

 

Uh... yeah... the rewards for them should probably be balanced. Great input.

[Psyonico]

6 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Being Man-Sized (ie. up to 7 or 8 feet tall) just doesn't work if you're making a character who is supposed to be a GIANT.

So here’s the problem with having taller than what is allowed… clipping.  A lot of maps aren’t designed for mobs taller than 8 feet.

 

So basically, I have no problem with the idea except that there would have to be limits to what maps are allowed, which means extra code time.  Assuming this extra code time is minimal… fine, I don’t care, but standard code rant applies.

[Rudra]

26 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

So here’s the problem with having taller than what is allowed… clipping.  A lot of maps aren’t designed for mobs taller than 8 feet.

 

So basically, I have no problem with the idea except that there would have to be limits to what maps are allowed, which means extra code time.  Assuming this extra code time is minimal… fine, I don’t care, but standard code rant applies.

That argument runs up against existing missions with GMs/Monsters. Example: Jurassik. There is a cave mission where you have to fight Jurassik at the end to save Woodsman. And Jurassik already clips through the map everywhere except for the room at the end where you meet him. So we already have at least one instance of fighting GMs/Monsters where they are clipping through the terrain. Depending on how the fight with Bat'Zul goes in that SF, that is another example.

 

I'm not saying that I like such large opponents clipping through everything, but I am saying it already happens in existing content.

[Psyonico]

I don’t know if I’ve ever seen Jurrasik leave the room he spawns in, but maybe he can, I don’t know.

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

I don’t know if I’ve ever seen Jurrasik leave the room he spawns in, but maybe he can, I don’t know.

He has chased me down the halls lots of times. He has also fled from me down the halls lots of times. Besides, we already have access to GMs in AE as an Advanced Mission Goal option, just not custom ones. And yes, we can only add GMs to maps flagged to allow them. (Edit: Sorry I didn't include that in my first response to you. I had to open AE and check to make sure first.)

 

Edited Monday at 02:51 AM by Rudra

[tidge]

In the open world, the XP rewards for Giant Monsters is pretty miserable IMO.

[Forager]

8 hours ago, Psyonico said:

So here’s the problem with having taller than what is allowed… clipping.  A lot of maps aren’t designed for mobs taller than 8 feet.

 

So basically, I have no problem with the idea except that there would have to be limits to what maps are allowed, which means extra code time.  Assuming this extra code time is minimal… fine, I don’t care, but standard code rant applies.

 

AE already does this.

[arcane]

18 hours ago, Forager said:

This is a fantastic idea. The Idea Police will probably be in here to tell you why it can't be done and blame "the code" but we already know it can be done. 

Are you okay?

[battlewraith]

10 minutes ago, arcane said:

Are you okay?

It's great that you care. Maybe DM though if you don't actually have any feedback.

I think this is a great idea.

[arcane]

15 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

It's great that you care. Maybe DM though if you don't actually have any feedback.

I think this is a great idea.

I’m good with the OP idea too.
 

I just find it weird that people make these preemptive posts about how everyone’s about to shit on an idea… that nobody dislikes. It’s almost like people respond well to good ideas and badly to bad ones and there’s not a problem at all 🤔

[battlewraith]

24 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’m good with the OP idea too.
 

I just find it weird that people make these preemptive posts about how everyone’s about to shit on an idea… that nobody dislikes. It’s almost like people respond well to good ideas and badly to bad ones and there’s not a problem at all 🤔

Maybe you should start your own thread about how weird you find things. It would be a hoot.

Glad you like this idea. Huzzah!

[Jacke]

What @Rudra, @Psyonico, and @tidge said.

 

And this one is for @battlewraith and @arcane.  Keep it weird, dudes!

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Anyway, once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more!  Or close the wall up with our....  Wait, this isn't Harfleur.  Wrong context.

 

Anyhoo.  Thanks especially to @Rudra, as I didn't know that some maps in AE are flagged to allow GMs.  Good to know.  Some day, AE, some day.  😺

 

But there are a few things most Players seem unaware of.  Now....  Hmmm?

 

19 hours ago, Forager said:

The Idea Police will probably be in here to tell you why it can't be done and blame "the code"....

 

Sigh.  Herm....  Ah, yes, thank you, again, @Rudra, let me borrow something.

 

15 hours ago, Rudra said:

WEEEOOOO WEEEOOOO WEEEOOOO!

 

This is the Idea Police! We have the place surrounded! Come out with your brains empty! ready to be filled!

 

  🚔  🚨  👮‍♀️  😎

 

Now, where do I start....

 

Economics.  There are many Schools of Economics.  Some of them are, well, let's be generous and say they're touting ideas that are a bit weak at least.

 

But there is much good, even vital, in Economics.  Like this principle:  People can't do everything.  In fact, economics is all about how people decide on what to do and what influences those decisions and what are the consequences of those decisions.

 

There's also this great term from Economics:  Opportunity Cost.  Actions have a cost.  What could that cost have supported if some other action(s) were taken?  A way way open-ended question, but at least some other actions can be thought of.

 

Also something else:  Anedotes often don't include context.

 

19 hours ago, Forager said:

...but we already know it can be done. They can spawn giant versions of player characters already, so there can't be too much standing between the costume creator and GM size.

 

Let me add the context:  Just because a GM can do something for a special occasion, doesn't mean it is a good idea to allow it to go into AE.

 

Here's another Principle, of MMOs: If it can be farmed, it will be farmed.

 

This is true for City as much as any other MMO.  Some things are awkward to get.  Or people want them in volume or quick and easy.  (Herm, Badge idea, "Quick & Easy".  There's already "Strong & Pretty", why not?  😺 )

 

Example: The Apex and Tin Plex II Task Forces are locked to +4 Notoriety, else they'd pay out much less Reward Merits.

 

The Devs and a lot of us do really care about some sort of Balance in City.  (Where we often disagree is on some of the fiddly details, but such is the nature of working together.)

 

As @Rudra pointed out, you can include GMs into AE on some maps (likely to avoid clipping, as @Psyonico noted, or other reasons, like limiting the payout, as @tidge noted (which aren't that great for GMs because, yes, they were farmed too, still are)).  Wonder if that includes Monsters as well.

 

I do need to find some time for AE.  Should learn to make my own.  There are good arcs there.  Like these... @Linea's 801 arcs.  Sure.  They'll be "Quick & Easy".  Trust me.  😺

 

 

Edited Monday at 03:47 PM by Jacke

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

But there are a few things most Players seem unaware of.

Do you really believe that most players are unaware of these concerns?

I think it's actually the opposite. Most players don't regularly post on the forums. Of the ones that do, most don't post suggestions because it's likely a complete waste of time. 

This place should be about ideation and communicating the types of things players would like to see. Instead, you have a cabal of forum regulars that treat these posts as engineering proposals. The problem is that only the most bland, pissant, non-impactful idea is going to make it past the gauntlet of economics you laid out. 

[lemming]

Story wise, I don't see why not.   As people mention, not all maps, but there are maps that are already flagged.

It might be as simple as allowing the model, etc... to be edited in the text file.   That would mean they wouldn't be worth any rewards like other custom chars that can be setup that way, but it would allow it without having to worry too much about balance.

[Marine X]

Already have plenty of regular ARCs with giant NPC, between the giant version of Diabolique, Avatars of Hamidon, War Walkers and the like. The idea of making custom ones would be intriguing just have to see if it can be done. If not, it would be nice if they could make the existing ones available for use on limited maps for original story use in AE.

[Forager]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

Instead, you have a cabal of forum regulars that treat these posts as engineering proposals.

 

I was thinking of them like hobbyist insurance adjusters, but yeah... it's definitely weird.

[Chris24601]

Honestly? I’d settle for just letting custom AE opponents scale up to Minotaur/Cyclops scale… having had to do some art with even relatively small giants (c. 9-10 feet tall), it’s interesting how little extra height is needed to make someone feel massive compared to a normal person.

 

For reference, 10 feet vs. 6 feet is proportional to a full grown adult and a four year old child. Add some extra bulk to the 10 foot humanoid and it’s pretty easy to have them be ten times the volume of an adult human (and weighing nearly a ton).

 

I don’t think you’d need to go all the way to Great Monster size to achieve the feeling of massiveness the OP desires. Just 12-15 feet tall would make even the largest player model feel like a hobbit.

Edited Tuesday at 01:09 PM by Chris24601

[Ultimo]

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Honestly? I’d settle for just letting custom AE opponents scale up to Minotaur/Cyclops scale… having had to do some art with even relatively small giants (c. 9-10 feet tall), it’s interesting how little extra height is needed to make someone feel massive compared to a normal person.

 

For reference, 10 feet vs. 6 feet is proportional to a full grown adult and a four year old child. Add some extra bulk to the 10 foot humanoid and it’s pretty easy to have them be ten times the volume of an adult human (and weighing nearly a ton).

 

I don’t think you’d need to go all the way to Great Monster size to achieve the feeling of massiveness the OP desires. Just 12-15 feet tall would make even the largest player model feel like a hobbit.

This is true, and would definitely be satisfactory.

 

However, it might be nice to be able to make a proper Giant Monster, too.  I have a group of characters based on the Fantastic Four, and with the movie coming up, I thought it might be cool to make a homage villain based on Galactus... but there's not really any way to make a character that big or that powerful.

[Psyonico]

I did just think about something that may look wonky with “true giant” Gems.  All of the textures for models are relatively low resolution (at least comparatively) so forcing them to scale to twice or three times the size they were designed for may cause pixelation.  I don’t know if that is reason enough to not allow it, but food for thought.

[Forager]

5 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Honestly? I’d settle for just letting custom AE opponents scale up to Minotaur/Cyclops scale…

 

That would also be lovely. It's quite a task to make critters that are intimidating and this would be a useful tool.

[TheMoneyMaker]

13 hours ago, Psyonico said:

I did just think about something that may look wonky with “true giant” Gems.  All of the textures for models are relatively low resolution (at least comparatively) so forcing them to scale to twice or three times the size they were designed for may cause pixelation.  I don’t know if that is reason enough to not allow it, but food for thought.

I'm not particularly hungry for that. I'd prefer a plate of AE size-boosting option for any custom mob from minion to AV. Things don't have to scale to giant monster power level just because they're bigger.