Focused Feedback: Powerset - Plant Control

[LastHumanSoldier]

1 minute ago, Mezmera said:

 

You have an assault and epic powers you're supposed to use to 'maintain damage'.  Imagine abusing the two most obvious OP powers on the control side housed in the same set and being mad it finally gets its due.  Push other buttons, 'delete' if you have to even.  

 

I won't bother addressing your comment about EPIC powers balancing a set because... I mean come on.

In regard to the Assault set, you are right. If I combine my assault set with another primary I have better control and better damage so I will probably do that. Good suggestion.

Plant isn't ruined, heck I can still solo 54x8 content without changing my live build on test (at least on my Dominator). 
It just doesn't feel good to play, and its not the set It used to be. I will never get the damage back, and to sure up the control I have to sacrifice pools to pick up Spores/Tree.
Just not worth it when I can powerlevel up something else.

[Electronuts]

I've been trying to work out why on earth they would gut such a popular and well established set which people love to play. Why take away something everyone likes? Then I noticed:

"Hypnotizing Lights

• Ranged (Cone), Foe Sleep, Foe Confuse (Within 20ft), Moderate DoT (Psionic)
• You conjure a whirl of lights with differing effects depending on the distance from which it is viewed. Most all targets within the area will be placed into a sleep like trance. Up to six enemies within 20 feet of the display are Confused and receive Psionic damage over time."

This is a 45 second recharge, 16 target max, aoe confuse/sleep.  So if they dont nerf plant, no one will play their new set, as sleep is still a bit shite and plant will be better. I just dont think this is the right way to go about doing things.

 

 

[Riverdusk]

Seeds being nerfed a bit wouldn't be too big a deal.  Hammering it by nerfing it in 3 different ways all at once (duration, target caps, and recharge) is just a ridiculous swinging of the pendulum too far the other way.  Things like stalagmites and flash fire are now much better powers.   It okay if we reduce their target caps to 10 and just say, "use your other powers to make up the difference?"  We need to balance afterall.

 

Some nerfing of creepers abusing procs too much was also fine.  Again it just seems they went too far.  Bump up its base damage some to help compensate? 

 

I can't confirm whether or not there are actually less vines being generated by creepers that some are reporting.  I only had a chance to test for a limited time and didn't notice a huge change there.  It'd be nice to see that confirmed one way or another.  If that is happening, hopefully that isn't working as intended as there is no mention of it in the patch notes.

 

Anyway, just of the opinion that controllers as an AT could use some buffing, which this patch did...a little....overall to several of the powersets.  But the biggest power shift hit plant, which was a big nerf instead.  That is sad to see.

 

At least they didn't negatively touch my other favorite control set, illusion.....yet.  It also is a pretty good damaging set, for a controller, so I do have to worry a bit.  I definitely like that terrify procs containment in this patch.  So yes I'm probably retiring my plants (was in the middle of leveling up a plant/TA one among many when this hit), and going back to illusion for now. Just have to hope illusion doesn't get the evil eye next.

 

 

[Riverdusk]

FYI, another thing that might seem to be causing the feeling that things are taking longer to defeat that is kind of buried in the patch notes:

 

All critters now regenerate health 5% of their health every 12 seconds (does not include GMs or AVs)

 

That is basically a doubling of Lt's and bosses regen rates (current is 5% every 23 seconds) and more than a tripling of minions current health regen rates (currently 5% every 42 seconds).  AV's currently regen 5% every 15 seconds, so regular mobs are now health regenning at a faster rate % wise than AV's.

 

Assuming I'm not misunderstanding something.  

 

Seems an indirect nerf on AT's like controllers that tend to take longer to kill things.

[Troo]

7 hours ago, macskull said:

but until other changes happen in who knows how many years we're going to be stuck in the current state. Oh well.

 

At least this is just round one AND free respec... yay

 

---

 

Documented testing & a well articulated argument at this juncture could go a long way. 

Those casually playing Plant Control without uber builds are also affected.

I'm a noob with controllers and recently rolled 2 (Arsenal/Radiation, Plant/Storm). I am sad if Plant's look and feel take a hit in addition to performance.

 

What is the middle ground? Keep the 16 and lowering the duration significantly? Confuse already has a trade off with -EXP, doesn't it?

 

 Seeds of Confusion

• Recharge increased to 90s.
• Scale reduced from scale 20 to scale 12. (Something in between)
• Target cap lowered from 16 to 10. (Keep 16)

 

---

 

Looks interesting.. but what's the point of it being defeated. just an extra meat shield for low level stuff?

 

 Spirit Tree

• Cast time lowered from 3.2s to 1.67s.
• Recharge reduced from 200s to 120s.
• Duration reduced from 90s to 60s.
• Spirit tree can now be attacked.
• Spirit tree now taunts and has a scaling defense and resist aura.
• Even after being defeated, spirit tree's regen aura should remain.

 

Edited Wednesday at 09:52 AM by Troo

[ExeErdna]

Instead of nerfing Seeds, look at the older Single Target confusions because I can admit I skip them except in Symphony since they're now a dps monster, especially with Cupid's Crush. 

Vines' damage buff is interesting on paper yet for the synergy with Nature's aura I didn't see the damage as much as I would like. Since it seems like enemies are out regen the damage. 

 

Yes, Creepers are spawning less often which defeats Plant's usefulness since that is the #1 reason you pick Plant. You want to be "OP" Fire, Grav, Arsenal, Illusion, are right there. Elec is about to be amazing. Plant is legit a two trick gimmick nobody is that mad about. 

Spirit Tree's taunting is not great because once again that was Creeper's role to pull aggro, Since you drop'em on a clustered group 5 pop out and they're getting snared figuring out which vine to hit. The tree gets two tapped by 2+ Warwolves and they turn back on me. Legit making playing the set harsher than it needs to be. 

 

[CaptSquid]

I understand the general direction here: standardizing certain power behaviors (like Confuse recharge and scaling), adjusting proc abuse issues, and giving underwhelming powers more presence. That said, my main concern is that these changes to plant collectively feel like an overall nerf to a set that doesn't seem to warrant it.

Plant isn’t overplayed or dominant. Anecdotally, I see far more Fire Control users than Plant, and not just by a small margin. Plant is popular for its synergy and distinctiveness, but it’s hardly dominating the meta in the way other specs might be perceived. If the set is slightly overperforming in certain scenarios, I question whether that justifies reducing its strengths when it isn't leading to abuse or crowding out other options.

Specifically:

• Seeds of Confusion losing scale and targets hits hard on top of a recharge nerf. That power was a big part of Plant’s identity and strategic depth. It serves as the alpha strike mitigation and post-patch would underperform equivalents such as Stalagmites or Flashfire, as others have pointed out.

• Carrion Creepers losing the quirky, layered proc interactions may have been necessary from a technical standpoint, but it also seems to dull the set’s feel and fun.

• Spirit Tree’s new tanky role is interesting, but I worry it’s being asked to fill a role no one really needed it to. The old regen tree was a unique utility tool, and this version feels like a solution in search of a problem.

That said, I do want to acknowledge the Sleep mechanic overhaul as a very welcome improvement. Deep Sleep seems like a great addition for powers like Spore Burst and others that previously felt too fragile in actual gameplay. Making sleep stackable and resistant to instant cancellation adds depth to its role as a control tool, especially when damage-over-time powers are in play. 
 

Still, I worry that the cumulative changes to Plant, especially the nerfs to key identity powers, may leave it feeling flatter and less distinct. The City of Heroes experience isn’t primarily about PvP or competitive balance. It thrives on variety, playstyle identity, and the feeling that different sets bring something unique. Homogenizing outliers that aren’t disrupting gameplay risks creating sets that feel too similar to one another.

Balance should of course be considered, but in this case it feels like it’s being pursued at the cost of a set’s identity. If the set isn’t over-represented or warping the game, what’s the upside of reducing its high points?

 

Thanks for reading.

[Crysis]

If the goal was to make Plant a mid- to low- tier powerset, then you’ve succeeded marvelously!

 

After testing, this is now a set that I will only choose for thematics and/or for grins-and-giggles group play.  It’s fine for those purposes, and those purposes are entirely viable as is almost any other combination of powers in COH.  I get it, that’s what you are attempting to do, bring all sets down to a certain point where any set is interchangeable with any other set, not making any one unique/special…just so they appeal to different thematics.  All fine, no complaints from me for going in that direction.  

 

You’ve succeeded in making Plants a graphically unique powerset that performs no better/worse than any others.  Kinda like Storm Blast, which more or less signaled the direction you were going with most other powersets.  Not like we didn’t see this coming. 

Edited Wednesday at 12:41 PM by Crysis
Typed too fast

[Caimie]

I'm kind of confused as to why Spirit Tree was given a taunt, since it's more of a utility skill than anything.

Why not give Creepers the taunt by spawning a Vine when it's summoned to taunt, like Glittering Column in Pyro, and when that Vine is defeated Creepers goes back to normal by spawning more Vines.

I'd rather see something like that than what Spirit Tree was changed to.

[arcane]

People undervalue AoE confuse so much it’s crazy. Saying Seeds is underperforming Flashfire or Stalagmites now is ridiculous. Only one of those mez types has been proven over and over again to accelerate XP and reward gains, and it ain’t stun. And I don’t believe that any of you don’t know that.

[ExeErdna]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

People undervalue AoE confuse so much it’s crazy. Saying Seeds is underperforming Flashfire or Stalagmites now is ridiculous. Only one of those mez types has been proven over and over again to accelerate XP and reward gains, and it ain’t stun. And I don’t believe that any of you don’t know that.

 

 

It's why I state Plants only has 2 good skills and it's Seeds and Creepers. The pet is not worth it when you can drop that into the tree and keep a whole league so stacked with regen they wouldn't know they've been hit combined with Nature's features. Plant outright has 4 skips Stranglers, Spore Burst, Spirit Tree and Fly Trap. The signature skills are the main two things getting chopped down. The set is basic besides those two skills. With these nerfs Plants is the worse set since its keystone features no longer do their job.

[arcane]

8 minutes ago, ExeErdna said:

 

 

It's why I state Plants only has 2 good skills and it's Seeds and Creepers. The pet is not worth it when you can drop that into the tree and keep a whole league so stacked with regen they wouldn't know they've been hit combined with Nature's features. Plant outright has 4 skips Stranglers, Spore Burst, Spirit Tree and Fly Trap. The signature skills are the main two things getting chopped down. The set is basic besides those two skills. With these nerfs Plants is the worse set since its keystone features no longer do their job.

Seeds will still be doing its job and Creepers will still be doing one of its two jobs.

 

Would really like to see more measured posts and less awfulizing in this thread. Very reminiscent of “THE SKY IS FALLING because slight reduction in Rune of Protection uptime”. Don’t think such dramatic and exaggerated thinking is productive as feedback.

Edited Wednesday at 01:39 PM by arcane

[ApolloInferno]

@arcane

 

Sorry didnt mean to be confusing.

 

The point i was trying to make is that Seeds and Creepers were hit with a Heavy Handed nerf without any true balance to them. And it comes to a set that wasnt abused or over represented.

 

I believe there should be a healthy medium somewhere with this nerf if it needs to happen. Seeds keep the target cap it had. Creepers get a boost to base damage.

 

Its current iteration feels weak and it doesnt need to be that way.

 

If a set like plant can be hit with a nerf like this then everyone should consider that their favorite character will get nerfs like this too in the future. (This is why nerfs are frowned on in PVE games)

[Player-1]

11 hours ago, macskull said:

I do wish they'd address control being less-than-useful in a lot of scenarios before they nerf one of the best control sets, but here we are. Deep sleep and the AoE mez changes are a decent start but until other changes happen in who knows how many years we're going to be stuck in the current state. Oh well.

 

This is something we have plans on, but requires a lot of measurements to ensure we don't swing too far into mez effects needing to be necessary. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Electronuts said:

I've been trying to work out why on earth they would gut such a popular and well established set which people love to play. Why take away something everyone likes? Then I noticed:

"Hypnotizing Lights

• Ranged (Cone), Foe Sleep, Foe Confuse (Within 20ft), Moderate DoT (Psionic)
• You conjure a whirl of lights with differing effects depending on the distance from which it is viewed. Most all targets within the area will be placed into a sleep like trance. Up to six enemies within 20 feet of the display are Confused and receive Psionic damage over time."

This is a 45 second recharge, 16 target max, aoe confuse/sleep.  So if they dont nerf plant, no one will play their new set, as sleep is still a bit shite and plant will be better. I just dont think this is the right way to go about doing things.

 

 

 

Hypnotizing Lights can only confuse 6 targets max, and only within a set 20ft range. The confuse is also less potent than the current Seeds of Confusion. 

 

[arcane]

Fun fact: before the aggro changes and before I became hyperfocused on one character’s veteran level, I had 8 different toons set up for fire farming. The only reason I stopped is because I didn’t want to have to pop greens under the new aggro rules. I had 4 fire brutes, a fire tank, a fire blaster, a fire/kin, and a plant dom that could all comfortably fire farm.

 

Who had the fastest clear times of all 8 farmers? The Plant dom.

[Parabola]

I've long thought that the problem with confusion in this game is that there's nothing confused about it. Enemies affected by confusion know exactly who their enemy now is; it's exclusively their former friends. If confusion lived up to the name enemies would select targets at random from everyone on the battlefield, both friend and foe. That would make confusion a much softer control and it would also have addressed some of the power imbalance between seeds and mass confusion (seeds aggros so you'd always get random return fire, mass confusion doesn't so you wouldn't unless you attack further).

 

Anyway, that's all very pie in the sky thinking now. I haven't had a chance to do any testing (and might not) but I'm very concerned that these changes seem to go too far. Creepers in particular is integral to the feel of plant and if it isn't a high damage patch of chaos and fun fx, then plant loses a big part of its usp.

[arcane]

18 minutes ago, ApolloInferno said:

@arcane

 

Sorry didnt mean to be confusing.

 

The point i was trying to make is that Seeds and Creepers were hit with a Heavy Handed nerf without any true balance to them. And it comes to a set that wasnt abused or over represented.

 

I believe there should be a healthy medium somewhere with this nerf if it needs to happen. Seeds keep the target cap it had. Creepers get a boost to base damage.

 

Its current iteration feels weak and it doesnt need to be that way.

 

If a set like plant can be hit with a nerf like this then everyone should consider that their favorite character will get nerfs like this too in the future. (This is why nerfs are frowned on in PVE games)

I would be completely down for a Creepers base damage boost to soften the blow. I don’t think there’s any argument that the current proc behavior is okay though. 
 

I think it’s essential that Seeds gets a recharge increase and a target cap reduction, but I’m open to softening the blow to duration.

 

I don’t really get upset at buffs and nerfs if they seem reasonable by the game’s logic. The new meta tends to still be fun like the old one. The only thing that will upset me is if I have to do 63 respecs and spend a year of playing catch-up. This new page was almost too much in that regard, but I received a sizable cash infusion last night and am no longer worried.

[ExeErdna]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Seeds will still be doing its job and Creepers will still be doing one of its two jobs.

 

Would really like to see more measured posts and less awfulizing in this thread. Very reminiscent of “THE SKY IS FALLING because slight reduction in Rune of Protection uptime”. Don’t think such dramatic and exaggerated thinking is productive as feedback.

 

My Plant/Nature is my current main because it's the weakest of my set of Controllers. These nerfs ruin it since what would Plant be without Seeds or Creepers being strong? An unfinished controller set. I know what I am talking about because I min/max the absolute hell of that troller to suit the melee ranged combat it wants to be in. Why pull down Plant when everybody else is getting pulled up? The only gimmick it has high damage if there are enough enemies clustered together and honestly the only confusion that's worth using the dmg procs on. That doesn't need to be nerfed.

My Grav/Rad hits like a truck. My Arsenal/Traps is synergistic perfection. My Elec/Elec is gonna be a powerhouse when these update rolls out. My Earth/Marine is so good it's boring to play. This isn't a "sky is falling" this is a bad idea about to happen that will ruin the ONLY things that makes Plant stand out. Plant/Nature was always the "Poison Ivy/Swamp Thing" gimmick it wasn't near the best it was just thematically cool. The set stands out under niche conditions which is massive crowds that force you to stand there for a bit. So super fast clearing I'll rather finish my Fire/Marine. Plant is good on, ITF, Market Crash, All the zone-based invasion events, MSR, Trials and Farming. It's too slow or isn't active enough for most Strike forces

[arcane]

Any reference to Plant not being the best at lockdown is a red herring and irrelevant. It is dramatically superior at mob clearing and that’s all that’s being targeted besides bugs and obvious inequalities.

[ExeErdna]

Yeah, people see a cluster of vines pop out at pulls on ITF and think it's amazing. It was yet the REAL DPS players still clear way faster than I. Where I was good at is when we had to lockdown and sit somewhere. Which allows the creepers to grow and seeds to soften up mobs a bit. After switching out Will of the Controller for Cupid's Crush now Creepers has a funny confusion gimmick since from what I played with Cupid's Crush is better in most Controller pets than anything else. To me Creepers might as well be a pet. Isn't that the point of how slotting works. Yeah somebody is gonna put 6 procs to me that's dumb because I want the set bonuses. I'm losing out on my fun because procing's a bit crazy "sure" Yet it's making it feel like everybody is running Plant and it "ruining" content. It's just people know what they're doing, that how and why I can pull up and be a hitter in many fire farms. This just feels like I'm getting punished for knowing what I'm doing. 

[SakuraFrost]

1 hour ago, Player-1 said:

 

This is something we have plans on, but requires a lot of measurements to ensure we don't swing too far into mez effects needing to be necessary. 

 

 

 

Hypnotizing Lights can only confuse 6 targets max, and only within a set 20ft range. The confuse is also less potent than the current Seeds of Confusion. 

 

 When reflecting on the changes that are planned for plants, as a developer, do you guys feel like you’ve made the set more fun and engaging to play for the player base? Do you feel like these changes will encourage people to create and continue to play their plant controllers? Or are these changes  more so aimed at “balance”, and is the trade-off worth it in your eyes, especially when considering the  strengths of specific power sets in the game (archetype versus archetype, and specifically within the controller archetype itself)?

[LastHumanSoldier]

Supposedly the Creeper spawn limitations are an unintended sided effect of the changes used to strip its proc usefuless.  - source Discord

 

I am going to stop commenting pending that fix getting pushed.

[Player-1]

47 minutes ago, SakuraFrost said:

 When reflecting on the changes that are planned for plants, as a developer, do you guys feel like you’ve made the set more fun and engaging to play for the player base? Do you feel like these changes will encourage people to create and continue to play their plant controllers? Or are these changes  more so aimed at “balance”, and is the trade-off worth it in your eyes, especially when considering the  strengths of specific power sets in the game (archetype versus archetype, and specifically within the controller archetype itself)?

 

Hello SakuraFrost,

 

While I was not the lead on this project, the goal is to make sure the entire powerset is useful and not concentrated onto select overtuned powers. This allows for more build flexibility among a variety of players who have different concepts for their Plant Control characters without shoehorning them into just two powers played a certain way. 

 

Seeds of Confusion had to be brought down a notch or two for the type of power it is. A lower tier cone power should not be outshining high tier AoE confuses in other control powersets. This nerf, while it stings, will allow for rebalanced encounters to work with multiple control powersets instead of having to always factor in this specific power.

 

Carrion Creepers were bugged where multiple powers activating within the patch overlapped and caused multiple procs to apply with every activation. This ballooned its strength up in a way that was not balanced due to a bug, and needed to be fixed. We are looking into ways to shore it up given the change, but from a base power perspective it is working as intended now (spawn bug aside). The other changes to Plant Control are intended to still let the powerset be strong as a kit, not just from two specific abilities.

[Saarei]

I don’t really see how plant’s selling point being two great powers is really such a problem? Many times I pick sets because of a few really good powers.

[SakuraFrost]

31 minutes ago, Player-1 said:

 

Hello SakuraFrost,

 

While I was not the lead on this project, the goal is to make sure the entire powerset is useful and not concentrated onto select overtuned powers. This allows for more build flexibility among a variety of players who have different concepts for their Plant Control characters without shoehorning them into just two powers played a certain way. 

 

Seeds of Confusion had to be brought down a notch or two for the type of power it is. A lower tier cone power should not be outshining high tier AoE confuses in other control powersets. This nerf, while it stings, will allow for rebalanced encounters to work with multiple control powersets instead of having to always factor in this specific power.

 

Carrion Creepers were bugged where multiple powers activating within the patch overlapped and caused multiple procs to apply with every activation. This ballooned its strength up in a way that was not balanced due to a bug, and needed to be fixed. We are looking into ways to shore it up given the change, but from a base power perspective it is working as intended now (spawn bug aside). The other changes to Plant Control are intended to still let the powerset be strong as a kit, not just from two specific abilities.

Hi Player-1!

 

Thank you for taking the time to reply with detail and insight into the thought process for these changes being considered. 
 

I understand seeds and carrion creepers were over performing. However, the consensus seems to be Plant is weaker overall despite the intention to make the kit strong. Additionally, players will still use and rely on seeds and carrion creepers, except now they’re less effective. I’m not sure weakening those (you acknowledged carrion creepers has a bug that will be fixed) accomplishes the goal of “variety of players who have different concepts for their Plant Control characters without shoehorning them into just two powers played a certain way”. My interpretation of your claim is that there are players who don’t want to take seeds and carrion creepers, and now they won’t be forced to? That doesn’t make a lot of sense, that’d be like a kinetics player that doesn’t want to take speed boost! Isn’t there a way to lift up the less desirable powers like vines, spirits tree, spore burst while simultaneously adjusting the strength of seeds and carrion creepers without outright gutting their effectiveness and role in putting Plants into a specific tier of damage within the controller archetype? Is the intention to leave that space solely for Fire control? I hope the team is open to the suggestions of adjusting seeds from one or two different angles such as target cap, cooldown, and duration instead of all 3 becoming worse. Additionally, it seems like Spirit Tree is still lackluster! 
 

Making the underrated parts of Plants shine is a wonderful aspiration, however as it stands you’ve half way accomplished this while tarnishing the best parts of the power set, which leaves the entire kit feeling wilted and plant players feeling saddened. I hope the team keeps a close eye on the feedback thread and considers player fun and enjoyment first and foremost!