I am done with Brutes

[Erratic1]

35 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

If the reason to play Brute was having a couple exclusive power sets, I think you can agree there's something very wrong there. That said, this thread is just full of silly opinions just like the start.

 

It was more than a couple back before Proliferation Madness. And to this day, you do not get to play Titan Weapon Stalkers, Ninjitsu Brutes, or Super Strength Scrappers.

 

 

[tidge]

On 8/6/2025 at 9:51 PM, Hopestar said:

If the reason to play Brute was having a couple exclusive power sets, I think you can agree there's something very wrong there. That said, this thread is just full of silly opinions just like the start.

 

The above may be ignoring that there is a helluva lot of content where different ATs don't have access to the same (or similar) tier powers because of when powers can be chosen... so it wasn't as if the game was designed to have primaries and secondaries (or Epics) be interchangeable.(*1)... i.e. level 50-only play. By my estimate, 99% of all "but balance!" arguments are predicated on level 50 builds (and what can be slotted at level 50, and what Incarnate powers can do for a level 50 build, etc.) I haven't forgotten that it was (on Live) the subscriber/prestige attacks that made early levels bearable, especially for ATs that might not even be able to string together enough attacks to face a classic 2-minions-and-1-LT spawn.

 

(*1) I can understand why a lot of the sets "ported" from one AT to another look indistinguishable, the same goes for certain Epic/Patron pools. The HC (power) devs appear to have settled on an approach that does most of what they want... but we have seen that the core mechanics of the ATs will cause slight but measurable differences in *solo* performance at some extreme settings. I appreciate when the HC devs tweak power sets to bring balance to over-performing sets and powers (so Dark/Soul changes, Seeds of Confusion, etc.)

 

Why the devs (and players... but at least players share their thoughts) care about the miniscule differences in solo play between three melee ATs at level 50 is a legit mystery to me... It seems clear to me that the devs have some clever ideas to implement for other ATs with powers that demonstrably under-perform... for example the adaptive recharge for (previously) long recharge AoE holds... abilities that should have always been on par with Blaster nukes but never came close. There are bigger fish/crabs/lobsters to fry with Kheldians (for example) and I still think there are a handful of Inherents that merit deeper consideration (specifically VEATs).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[normalperson]

I understand why the OP is upset.             I recently logged on to my Psi/Ele brute to discover "Power Surge" has been nerfed.            It recharges a bit faster, but now it only gives you 18.75% boost to your resistances, and only for 30 seconds.                  I like that it doesn't fully sap your End to zero when it expires, but 18.75% is a whole different story from what it used to do.               You were basically at 90% in everything for a couple of minutes, with decent enhancements.         

 

I can see why some people would consider that unfairly powerful for a non-tank, but it was only useable a couple of times per session.       I reserved it for emergencies, like if the team's tank accidentally pulls 2 or 3 spawns at once, or I accidentally aggro a spawn myself.            It was quite a power rush for the few minutes I had it, though. 

 

So I can see why the OP is upset.   You build a character you're proud of.   Situationally the best at something of anyone in the room, and then "Yoink!!!" it gets arbitrarily ripped away.   

I'll probably make an electric tank sometime soon, but I'm "once bitten" when it comes to brutes.               

 

The thing with Brutes is:  They are ONLY fun if you come up with a strategy.         It's not a class that you just throw into the fray and it plays well.       Tanks are designed to be playable/survivable with little or no understanding of game mechanics.   Scraps are the same for damage.    Brute has neither survivability nor damage unless you figure out a way to last a few seconds of continuous fighting. 

 

Brutes and Stalkers require finesse.       But you can't finesse anything if they keep changing the specs.        Each strategy is going to be very very dialed in to exactly what strengths/weaknesses your power set faces. 

[SomeGuy]

6 hours ago, normalperson said:

"Power Surge" has been nerfed.            It recharges a bit faster, but now it only gives you 18.75% boost to your resistances, and only for 30 seconds.                  I like that it doesn't fully sap your End to zero when it expires, but 18.75% is a whole different story from what it used to do.               You were basically at 90% in everything for a couple of minutes, with decent enhancements.         

 

I can see why some people would consider that unfairly powerful for a non-tank, but it was only useable a couple of times per session.       I reserved it for emergencies, like if the team's tank accidentally pulls 2 or 3 spawns at once, or I accidentally aggro a spawn myself.            It was quite a power rush for the few minutes I had it, though.

 

 

Funny, I think it got buffed. I never even had it on my bars before. If I even did take it, it was just a set mule. Now I actually throw an extra slot in it and have it on my bars, and use it.

 

These are my #s before and after I use the power:

 

 

I never considered it a great power because my build is already mostly resistance capped. No, I don't value HP/s anywhere near as much as DEF>RES>TOTAL HP, but it does give a decent HP/s boost while active, and that can be paired with Energize if need be. The two stack decently well together. And the end/s is a nice bonus. Basically, it went from a useless power with a really bad crash, to something that is actually useful, can still use it for a unique, and I can actually get reliable use out of it without the crash being momentum killing.

[normalperson]

I could probably dust off that toon and get the resistances up higher.    I had smash/lethal/energy to 90 without tapping the Power Surge button.    Probably around 70 for fire/cold   Lucky to get anywhere near 50 on Dark or Tox though.           The set has nothing for toxic, but with just a few set bonuses, Power Surge would cap it. 

 

But even if I got her power level back up to where I wanted it, she's just plain a different toon now.        If I were truly attached, I suppose I would make it work somehow.  

 

These changes only really discourage us away from our moderate to least favorites.          Unless there actually ends up being no work around.       I'm worried someday they'll set Brute soft cap to 75 like it is for scrappers, and that will be the end of the era. 

 

As it is, with some strategy you can make a not-quote tanker that deals continuous damage.         That's fun.     If they actually make brutes unable to tank, and therefore unable to live long enough to deal damage - then it just becomes a non-class. 

Edited Sunday at 07:42 PM by normalperson

[Wavicle]

It does get a little Toxic now, and regeneration from Power Sink as well.

[Maelwys]

Also it was Elec Armor in general that was changed, not just on Brutes...

 

 

 

 

[normalperson]

 

I imagine maybe they changed it because hardly anyone was playing it.    So I would be one of the few who disliked the change, and only because I had more or less mastered using it to good effect. 

I didn't really like the character, though, so its more of an excuse if I give up on her. 

 

If they really want more people to play /elec, then adding an alternate appearance for Lightning Field would probably do it.   Having the lightning come up at a 45 degree angle from your feet is kind of awkward.         Perhaps it could be more centered, and come out at a 90 degree angle the way Rune of Protection does it?       

[Wavicle]

Just so we are clear, Electric Armor was buffed, not nerfed.

[SomeGuy]

1 hour ago, normalperson said:

 

I imagine maybe they changed it because hardly anyone was playing it.        

 

 

Funny, cause after it got it's initial buff from the horrible state it launched in, ElA was arguably one of the best armor sets for melee in the game. I forgot about the Grounded change. That was super nice.

[lemming]

10 hours ago, normalperson said:

I imagine maybe they changed it because hardly anyone was playing it.

More like not many people took the T9 or used it as more than a mule.   At least my four chars with it don't, but with the change, I'll respec it back in.

 

I don't tend to like powers like it was setup.   I like the softer crashes that make it more survivable.   And as others have pointed out, other parts have improved.

[Seed22]

On 7/28/2025 at 8:15 PM, aethereal said:

 

The extra crit chance on a team is totally valid as a point not often included with Stalkers. 

 

I personally think placate is kinda bad even with the buffs it got, but fair enough it does give some mitigation that's hard to directly compare to the other ATs.

 

Everything else is, "even with all that, lower damage than Scrappers."

No no...stalkers eek out MORE ST damage than scrappers in almost all instances. I mean, StJ shits on at least half or 3/4th of scrapper sets ST wise and has good AoE with Spinning, and thats just one set.

 

Now the forums builds you see are bad and probably paint a poor picture of stalker performance, but rest assured they are at worst neck n neck to scraps and at best far ahead leaving them in the dust on ST.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:

No no...stalkers eek out MORE ST damage than scrappers in almost all instances. I mean, StJ shits on at least half or 3/4th of scrapper sets ST wise and has good AoE with Spinning, and thats just one set.

 

Now the forums builds you see are bad and probably paint a poor picture of stalker performance, but rest assured they are at worst neck n neck to scraps and at best far ahead leaving them in the dust on ST.

 

Why do you think Stalkers consistently perform much worse than Scrappers on Pylon tests if they do far better ST damage than Scrappers?

[Plutonix]

Plutonix was a tanker for more than a year. I switched her to brute on two servers and haven't looked back.

[skoryy]

I guess if we're sharing brute experiences, I'm currently leveling up a Savage/Regen and tested him out on Brainstorm and I'm having the time of my life here.

[Plutonix]

1 hour ago, skoryy said:

I guess if we're sharing brute experiences, I'm currently leveling up a Savage/Regen and tested him out on Brainstorm and I'm having the time of my life here.

Need more brute positivity. Thanks!

[SomeGuy]

11 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

Why do you think Stalkers consistently perform much worse than Scrappers on Pylon tests if they do far better ST damage than Scrappers?

 

 

I honestly don't know the definitive answer if they do or don't, but I do suspect there are more people pushing scraps, as opposed to stalks, in those areas. I have IN PERSON watched more then a few trainwreck DPS attempts with really good AT combos. I know myself personally I have only tried to get good DPS out of three stalkers, A StJ/EA WELL before shutdown, a STAFF/SR, and ElM/SD. I remember I was using Water Spout with the StJ/ENA. This was before the Snipe changes. 

 

So maybe Stalkers do? I have definitely seen people do some crazy low times with Stalkers. A EM/FIRE stands out to me. I think that person was averaging low 50s?

[Seed22]

11 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

Why do you think Stalkers consistently perform much worse than Scrappers on Pylon tests if they do far better ST damage than Scrappers?

Because

 

A.) bad builds or rotations

B.) Pylons arent a end all be all test. By this logic that one sent with all summons is the best DPS in the game. Again, the forums where bad builds and even worse advice run free will tell you otherwise but I promise it’s not true.

 

 

[aethereal]

6 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

I honestly don't know the definitive answer if they do or don't, but I do suspect there are more people pushing scraps, as opposed to stalks, in those areas. I have IN PERSON watched more then a few trainwreck DPS attempts with really good AT combos. I know myself personally I have only tried to get good DPS out of three stalkers, A StJ/EA WELL before shutdown, a STAFF/SR, and ElM/SD. I remember I was using Water Spout with the StJ/ENA. This was before the Snipe changes. 

 

So maybe Stalkers do? I have definitely seen people do some crazy low times with Stalkers. A EM/FIRE stands out to me. I think that person was averaging low 50s?

 

Your spreadsheet has about 80 scrapper times below the lowest stalker time.

[aethereal]

1 minute ago, Seed22 said:

Because

 

A.) bad builds or rotations

B.) Pylons arent a end all be all test. By this logic that one sent with all summons is the best DPS in the game. Again, the forums where bad builds and even worse advice run free will tell you otherwise but I promise it’s not true.

 

a.  I mean, this feels to me like you're reaching.  Your claim is that stalkers do "much better" ST DPS than Scrapper.  But nobody can actually demonstrate this?

b.  I'm not comparing Stalkers to Crabberminds or Masterminds.  If there's some reason to believe that Pylons are a bad comparison for, very specifically, scrappers vs stalkers ST DPS, I think you need to point out what that reason is, because I'm not seeing it.  There are certainly limitations to Pylons as a test, but I think they're a good test for this specific thing that we're talking about.

[skoryy]

Y'all in the wrong forum for a scrapper/stalker food fight.

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, skoryy said:

Y'all in the wrong forum for a scrapper/stalker food fight.

_{...and just like in the movie, it's imaginary food! 😹}

AFAIK there are definitely some build combos and some situations where Stalkers will be sitting on a higher average ST damage than Scrappers.
Team size boosting crit rate and specific powersets (like Energy Melee and Staff Melee) really benefitting from Assassin's Strike; for example.
An "average" Stalker versus an "average" Scrapper however is tougher to call. So I'm going with "it depends (tm)"

Can we get back to Brutes now? Poor guy's currently face down in a trifle.

[Plutonix]

51 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

_{...and just like in the movie, it's imaginary food! 😹}

AFAIK there are definitely some build combos and some situations where Stalkers will be sitting on a higher average ST damage than Scrappers.
Team size boosting crit rate and specific powersets (like Energy Melee and Staff Melee) really benefitting from Assassin's Strike; for example.
An "average" Stalker versus an "average" Scrapper however is tougher to call. So I'm going with "it depends (tm)"

Can we get back to Brutes now? Poor guy's currently face down in a trifle.

 

[SomeGuy]

7 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

Your spreadsheet has about 80 scrapper times below the lowest stalker time.

 

 

That....kind of helps highlight my point. There are way more scrapper players pushing that AT then people pushing stalkers. There aren't a lot of stalker times on there because, well, not a lot of stalker times have been made known to me.

 

There aren't that many Brute and Tanker examples on there also. Definitely not many that have caught my attention. Which is saddening to me, really. I don't have the means to do so, and time being the main one to do comparisons. I do have a EM/FIRE Brute AND tanker to directly compare, and a TW/ELE tanker/brute to directly compare. If I remember right, there was only roughly a minute difference with dropping a pylon with the two ATs. Honestly, not surprised. What I do need to compare with those combos is same mission full clear time. And that is definitely way more time intensive.

Edited yesterday at 10:46 PM by SomeGuy

[aethereal]

4 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

 

That....kind of helps highlight my point. There are way more scrapper players pushing that AT then people pushing stalkers. There aren't a lot of stalker times on there because, well, not a lot of stalker times have been made known to me.

 

First of all, a note of self-correction: there are "only" 49 Scrappers whose times are better than the best Stalker on your list.

 

Second:  There are 55 Stalkers on your list, from a wide variety of players.  It's not like there was zero interest in validating Stalkers.  And again, people here are claiming that Stalkers have strongly superior ST DPS to Scrappers -- of 55 tries from dozens of players we are saying that despite Stalkers actually being strongly better than Scrappers at this, none of them could get into the top, say, 20?  Does this actually pass the sniff test?

 

Third:  What actual affirmative evidence does anyone have that Stalkers have better ST DPS than Scrappers?  Like, I think that the pylon times are pretty good evidence.  I'll also say that my own experiences with Stalkers -- I like Stalkers and have played a bunch of them -- have never suggested to me that holistically they had superior ST DPS than an equivalently-optimized Scrapper (I have also played a bunch of Scrappers).  I'm seeing a lot of people assert that Stalkers outclass Scrappers here, cite no evidence, and then try to come up with elaborate theories for why the other evidence shouldn't count.  But is there any affirmative evidence that Stalkers in fact have better ST DPS than Scrappers?

 

Fourth:  I think the relatively larger number of people interested in optimizing Scrappers for pylons than Stalkers is a pretty straightforward story:  people tried both, found that Scrappers were superior, and then the kind of player who wanted to post a really good pylon time focused their efforts on the AT that was best for the job.

 

Fifth:  I mean, are you willing to apply this kind of logic to any other combo of ATs?  Maybe Brutes actually outclass Scrappers in ST DPS!  Yes, okay, Scrappers post better pylon times than Brutes, but aren't all of your above arguments equally valid if you plug in the word "Brute" for Stalker?