Fold Space is too good

[dukedukes]

I am suggesting a nerf here which is definitely unpopular and there would be too much outrage to make the change I suspect, so I think the damage was already done long ago now, but I'm interested in other peoples thoughts regardless. Let's list what is so great about Fold Space:

• groups up a bunch of mobs close together, naturally
• 100ft range. quite big
• 16 target cap
• mag 4 tp. speaking out of ignorance but I believe this means bosses are consistently teleported, this is what i see in practice. teleport target is mag 2!!! and takes like 4 seconds to use
• 2 minute cooldown, can be brought down to a 30-40 sec cd. Quite good!

Seems a bit too good for a power pool power, it's basically identical to Shadow Slip which I assume was changed at the same time... Shouldn't something like this power be restricted to relevant AT's? Warshade, Grav control. I think the power cheapens the AT's who get teleport powers as part of their core power sets. The numbers assigned to Fold Space as we know it suggests someone wanted a very strong power out of Fold Space, nothing like most power pool powers that are shadows of what you would get on the right AT. I accept there are some outliers in power pools, like hasten.

I think it would be nice to see control/support/hybrid AT's own the types of powers that maneuver mobs, whether it's Wormhole, Singularity, Telekinesis, Hurricane, Repulsion Field, the new black hole behaviour on beta, etc... hopefully we get more of these powers too as I think they're a ton of fun. Yes Fold Space is good on a tank but tanks have an incredible herding power in the game at their disposal: Taunt. Leave the crowd control to AT's it makes sense on. As a control/support I cannot get the equivalent of Taunt, but tankers and everyone else gets one of the strongest mob moving moves in the game. I do use provoke but it requires extra steps; out-range/LOS.

Being devils advocate for a moment I think this power is fun (because it's powerful), and no one who uses it would want to lose it. It could lower peoples enjoyment of the game losing it, but that's the same with all nerfs. The people who enjoy using this power should simply play an AT that has it in a core power set if it were removed from the teleport power pool.

[kelika2]

I see what you mean but its kinda balanced out by taking two TP powers, and slotting it and knowing that enemies +2-4 and higher resist it.  I see it quite a bit in lower levels but higher levels, eh.

 

I suppose that if you want it to get nerfed the devs can somehow make the incarnate level shifts not factor into its casting

 

[Psyonico]

54 minutes ago, dukedukes said:

As a control/support I cannot get the equivalent of Taunt, but tankers and everyone else gets one of the strongest mob moving moves in the game. I do use provoke but it requires extra steps; out-range/LOS.

You say you don’t get the equivalent of taunt and then say that you take the equivalent of taunt… provoke.

 

wormhole doesn’t just move enemies, it also stuns them.  Telekinesis immobilizes and trawls enemies so that the stay where you put them.  It also sets up for the levitate synergy.  Singularity does *so much more* than just pull in enemies.

 

None of these powers are nullified by a tank that takes Fold Space just like a defender who takes Provoke doesn’t nullify what a tank does.

[dukedukes]

8 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

I see what you mean but its kinda balanced out by taking two TP powers, and slotting it and knowing that enemies +2-4 and higher resist it.  I see it quite a bit in lower levels but higher levels, eh.

 

I suppose that if you want it to get nerfed the devs can somehow make the incarnate level shifts not factor into its casting

 

I'm a bit biased around the teleport pool because I think all the teleport powers are great. Combat TP is ridiculously good for melee, and pretty good for everyone else, plus you can slot Blessing of the Zephyr if you build for positional defense and need kb resist. Team Teleport would be the exception there, I guess MM's could use it.

Making it weaker is an option, personally I'd rather see it be more exclusive but still be effective, at least regarding teleport magnitude.
 

 

2 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

You say you don’t get the equivalent of taunt and then say that you take the equivalent of taunt… provoke.

Which has an accuracy check and zero range reduction, yes. A massively inferior version of Taunt. Not an equivalent whatsoever.
 

 

3 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

wormhole doesn’t just move enemies, it also stuns them.  Telekinesis immobilizes and trawls enemies so that the stay where you put them.  It also sets up for the levitate synergy.  Singularity does *so much more* than just pull in enemies.

 

None of these powers are nullified by a tank that takes Fold Space just like a defender who takes Provoke doesn’t nullify what a tank does.

And Shadow Slip does what? Secondary effects existing are cool and add some flavour, but if you're trying to argue Fold Space is weak I don't agree. Personally for even Wormhole the stun is counter-productive because failed TP's can still stun, so the mob is walking around aimlessly at a distance when I really want the mob where I used Wormhole at, I can't even leash it til the stun is over. The stun is often a downside for how I like to play but I live with it. 

Sure you can pick up some (typically) awful power pool powers that let you do what other AT's do and it doesn't nullify their existence, great. The main argument is it's too good, tons of people use it, I think it's clear the power is overtuned.

[Skyhawke]

I just wish Fold Space would pull melee players in with it. Nothing quite like jumping into a mob, right about to click your aoe aaaaaaand "where'd everybody go?". If I got pulled along for the ride and my aoe hit the enemies, that'd be spiffy. As it is, it ruffles my jammies more often than not. 

[Lunar Ronin]

1 minute ago, Skyhawke said:

I just wish Fold Space would pull melee players in with it. Nothing quite like jumping into a mob, right about to click your aoe aaaaaaand "where'd everybody go?". If I got pulled along for the ride and my aoe hit the enemies, that'd be spiffy. As it is, it ruffles my jammies more often than not. 

 

That's why I go a room ahead of the rest of the team while playing melee ATs.  It's the only way I can be assured to actually hit a mob without having it yoinked away.

[dukedukes]

Any mob moving skill is a double-edged sword for melee. It pulls enemies together for more effective aoe's but can pull enemies away from you. A lot of melee players like to go for stragglers, but if you're playing with a grav or a consistent fold space user you should be able to adapt, and predict. Would you like to single target an LT off in a corner or hit target cap on cones? Easy answer for me.

 

14 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

That's why I go a room ahead of the rest of the team while playing melee ATs.  It's the only way I can be assured to actually hit a mob without having it yoinked away.

Try combat teleport, it's a life changer for melee.

edit: Here's the combat tp macro since I suggested the power
/macro_image "Teleportation_Teleport" "ctptarget" "powexec_location target combat teleport"

Edited Friday at 08:36 PM by dukedukes
added macro

[Lunar Ronin]

2 minutes ago, dukedukes said:

Try combat teleport, it's a life changer for melee.

 

No room in any of my character builds for it.  I take Speed for Hasten and Super Speed, Fighting for Tough and Weave, either Leadership for Maneuvers or Leaping for Combat Jump, and Flight for Hover and Fly because I literally do not see the point in playing a super-powered character without flight.  Can't take a fifth power pool, so no Fold Space nor Combat Teleport for me.

[Uun]

21 hours ago, dukedukes said:

mag 4 tp. speaking out of ignorance but I believe this means bosses are consistently teleported

Fold Space will teleport bosses up to +2 (net of level shifts). Nerfing Fold Space gets a hard no from me.

[lemming]

The thing I'd like to change to Fold Space is get them to actually group around the user instead of the often done conga line.  (And I think this is something else in the code since you can simulate the same behavior when two players zone into various areas)

[dukedukes]

34 minutes ago, Uun said:

Fold Space will teleport bosses up to +2 (net of level shifts). Nerfing Fold Space gets a hard no from me.

This is a good counterpoint, in practice you can stand next to one of the bosses and it doesn't matter so much if a boss is not TP'd, reducing the downside. A tank could taunt to get a straggler boss pulled in, so the TP magnitude is to a degree negligible in practice for melee users. It's interesting to know, I may make a suggestion to make Wormhole more effective regarding its TP magnitude, it is a serious pain when Wormhole leaves targets behind.

I'm not so happy with the mob pulling meta being accomplished with a power anyone can use, I am preferring to value AT identity over accessibility, and would disagree on the power being balanced or weak so I respectfully disagree on the nerf part, but I do understand people enjoying the power and wanting nice things.
 

13 minutes ago, lemming said:

The thing I'd like to change to Fold Space is get them to actually group around the user instead of the often done conga line.  (And I think this is something else in the code since you can simulate the same behavior when two players zone into various areas)

It would be nice if the mob placement was better, same deal with Wormhole. If you stand against a north or east facing wall the mobs will stack perfectly on top of each other. The conga line prefers to point northeast from my testing. I wouldn't necessarily recommend standing against walls using the power since it can throw your team off balance but it's good sometimes.

[FupDup]

There's a lot of pool powers that are total ass and have been total ass for years, I think we should look into those first. If Fold Space remains king after that, then we can have a discussion. Right now there's not much competition. 

[arcane]

The creation of Fold Space basically led to the complete abandonment of the Fighting Pool by all of the game’s high end players. So it has extreme opportunity costs as is and requires proper use to not be positively counterproductive. Color me skeptical but maybe I just don’t want to do 63 respecs over your weekend whim.

 

EDIT: 63 is the current number of completed characters with Fold Space but it will shoot up again next week.

 

EDIT 2: also the implication at the end of the OP that a guy with 63 Fold Spacers should just start playing nothing but a Warshade 24/7 and problem solved is big lol.

Edited Saturday at 06:23 PM by arcane

[dukedukes]

20 minutes ago, arcane said:

The creation of Fold Space basically led to the complete abandonment of the Fighting Pool by all of the game’s high end players. So it has extreme opportunity costs as is and requires proper use to not be positively counterproductive. Color me skeptical but maybe I just don’t want to do 63 respecs over your weekend whim.

Hmm maybe there's a reason you're taking a power on all of those characters? Almost because... it's so good? You only prove my point. This is a concern I've had for a while but paint it however you like, you're correct according to you.

 

21 minutes ago, arcane said:

EDIT 2: also the implication at the end of the OP that a guy with 63 Fold Spacers should just start playing nothing but a Warshade 24/7 and problem solved is big lol.

It's funny to you maybe only because the proposed solution is a revert of a change you might actually be against, this is why I say the damage is already done. What if a top-tier power, existing or not, themed perfectly for some AT became available to everyone? Do you feel like your AT's identity or value would be reduced? If not, fine, but this is where I disagree. And yes I understand no one had Fold Space before it's inclusion but TP themed power sets missing out (or cheapened for Warshades) on it when it's a top tier TP power seems like a mistake.

[Azari]

Getting Fold Space usually means sacrificing global recharge, since the TP pool has no defense powers. 

[Maelwys]

I have Fold Space on precisely one toon, and it was taken at level 49 because they'd nothing better to pick... 🤷‍♂️

 

I have self-teleporting abilities and bamf-to-target binds set up on the majority of my toons though. Combat Teleport gets taken if I can spare a pool power selection, otherwise it's typically Mystic Flight. 

[MTeague]

Fold Space, when used as an opener, is logically, not that different from aggroing a group of mobs, and running around a corner to group them up. 

If used in mid-battle, perhaps a case could be made for more, but I have only seen it used as basically an opener / pull. 

It just has some convienence baked in. 

 

I don't think it needs a nerf, but I'm willing to change my mind if you can paint use-cases that are more than just herding mobs around a corner without spending the time to DO it.

[Gobbledigook]

It is one of the more annoying powers that have been introduced by the developers in their infinite wisdom.

[dukedukes]

2 hours ago, Azari said:

Getting Fold Space usually means sacrificing global recharge, since the TP pool has no defense powers. 

Zephyr fits well in the TP powers, you could get 3.75% ranged def and 5.64% aoe def if you were to get the 3 powers that accept zephyr. Maybe not the right choice depending on your priorities but this offsets the loss for me at least as I depend on these powers.
 

 

2 hours ago, Maelwys said:

I have Fold Space on precisely one toon, and it was taken at level 49 because they'd nothing better to pick... 🤷‍♂️

 

I have self-teleporting abilities and bamf-to-target binds set up on the majority of my toons though. Combat Teleport gets taken if I can spare a pool power selection, otherwise it's typically Mystic Flight. 

Preference is fine, I like going into pulls au naturel as well as with Fold Space. They're different experiences, but I believe one is much more efficient, though how much depends on the circumstances. I'm likely biased in valuing the ability to group mobs higher than most, I accept that.

 

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

Fold Space, when used as an opener, is logically, not that different from aggroing a group of mobs, and running around a corner to group them up. 

If used in mid-battle, perhaps a case could be made for more, but I have only seen it used as basically an opener / pull. 

It just has some convienence baked in. 

 

I don't think it needs a nerf, but I'm willing to change my mind if you can paint use-cases that are more than just herding mobs around a corner without spending the time to DO it.

Fold Space can be used mid-battle, in situations where more than one pull happens you save Fold Space for when the target count reaches ~16. If there is 2+ packs in the fight using the power early is likely a mistake unless both groups of mobs are very spread out, you'd jump on the tighter packed group initially if given the choice.

There's a combination of reasons that put Fold Space on top over a corner pull. Time inefficiency like you mention, dependence on map layout and mob layout. Fold Spaces requirements are much easier to meet, it's the default response to any pull where mobs are a bit spread.

I like tanks managing the positions of mobs through aggro, LOS or taunting for the -range. This is what I play tankers for. Sometimes you get a grav, warshade, or mind, etc, who takes on some of the mob management but you don't run into these toons ALL the time. Fold Space? It's certainly in a much higher percentage of the teams you're in. This accessibility and high value utility is a problem from my perspective.
 

5 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

It is one of the more annoying powers that have been introduced by the developers in their infinite wisdom.

I like the power and what it does but I agree with you a fair bit. The power is admittedly disruptive and dilutes what a regular pull is - scrappers taking out stragglers and bosses, tankers pulling in distant mobs, this gameplay is removed for that pull and you're left with an immediate AOE fest. I think an AOE fest can be fun too but the difference is how often you encounter Fold Space. It's like if you play with a grav, odds are Singularity will pull the mobs in and wormhole is going to deliver more mobs to you, it changes how you play and dilutes the gameplay in ways but you don't run into gravs all the time. You have your regular vanilla gameplay and every now and then it gets spiced up by the AT's who have these sorts of effects, I think this is ideal, Fold Space goes against this since anyone could have it.

[Gobbledigook]

4 minutes ago, dukedukes said:

Zephyr fits well in the TP powers, you could get 3.75% ranged def and 5.64% aoe def if you were to get the 3 powers that accept zephyr. Maybe not the right choice depending on your priorities but this offsets the loss for me at least as I depend on these powers.
 

 

Preference is fine, I like going into pulls au naturel as well as with Fold Space. They're different experiences, but I believe one is much more efficient, though how much depends on the circumstances. I'm likely biased in valuing the ability to group mobs higher than most, I accept that.

 

Fold Space can be used mid-battle, in situations where more than one pull happens you save Fold Space for when the target count reaches ~16. If there is 2+ packs in the fight using the power early is likely a mistake unless both groups of mobs are very spread out, you'd jump on the tighter packed group initially if given the choice.

There's a combination of reasons that put Fold Space on top over a corner pull. Time inefficiency like you mention, dependence on map layout and mob layout. Fold Spaces requirements are much easier to meet, it's the default response to any pull where mobs are a bit spread.

I like tanks managing the positions of mobs through aggro, LOS or taunting for the -range. This is what I play tankers for. Sometimes you get a grav, warshade, or mind, etc, who takes on some of the mob management but you don't run into these toons ALL the time. Fold Space? It's certainly in a much higher percentage of the teams you're in. This accessibility and high value utility is a problem from my perspective.
 

I like the power and what it does but I agree with you a fair bit. The power is admittedly disruptive and dilutes what a regular pull is - scrappers taking out stragglers and bosses, tankers pulling in distant mobs, this gameplay is removed for that pull and you're left with an immediate AOE fest. I think an AOE fest can be fun too but the difference is how often you encounter Fold Space. It's like if you play with a grav, odds are Singularity will pull the mobs in and wormhole is going to deliver more mobs to you, it changes how you play and dilutes the gameplay in ways but you don't run into gravs all the time. You have your regular vanilla gameplay and every now and then it gets spiced up by the AT's who have these sorts of effects, I think this is ideal, Fold Space goes against this since anyone could have it.

It depends on who uses and abuses it also.

[Maelwys]

18 minutes ago, dukedukes said:

Preference is fine, I like going into pulls au naturel as well as with Fold Space. They're different experiences, but I believe one is much more efficient, though how much depends on the circumstances. I'm likely biased in valuing the ability to group mobs higher than most, I accept that.

I don't think there's that much of a case for "extra efficiency" TBH.

On a toon with a Taunt Aura and/or punchvoke; IME Fold Space has only a few very niche situations where it's more efficient than you just instantly moving yourself into the middle of one fresh spawn; firing off a regular AOE; and then instantly moving into the middle of another fresh spawn. Because it has a target cap of 16; and power target selection in CoX always prefers the closest targets so Fold Space will always grab the closest 16 hostile targets (and annoyingly, line them up rather than pack them tightly in around you). 
So when soloing it's usually faster for those toons to just aggro a bunch of targets and drag them into another spawn, letting the enemies bunch up whilst you AoE them. And when on a Team you'll be having to time things between Blaster Nukes anyway.

On a toon without a Taunt Aura and/or punchvoke; I could potentially envisage a few more reasons to take FS... if it didn't have such a long recharge time, if it bunched the mobs up better and if using it didn't cost you nearly two seconds that you could have spent activating a damaging AoE ability. Honestly on my Doms/Blasters/etc that've tried it, they were all better off just using an extra AoE or two.

IMO the only niche situation where it'd be handy to have a power that physically gathers up enemies is when you're fighting something that starts off spread out and won't close to melee range natively (e.g. they have "prefer ranged" AI) which only exists with a few specific enemy types + missions.
 

Edited Saturday at 11:10 PM by Maelwys

[dukedukes]

  

42 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

I don't think there's that much of a case for "extra efficiency" TBH.

On a toon with a Taunt Aura and/or punchvoke; IME Fold Space has only a few very niche situations where it's more efficient than you just instantly moving yourself into the middle of one fresh spawn; firing off a regular AOE; and then instantly moving into the middle of another fresh spawn. Because it has a target cap of 16; and power target selection in CoX always prefers the closest targets so Fold Space will always grab the closest 16 hostile targets (and annoyingly, line them up rather than pack them tightly in around you). 
So when soloing it's usually faster for those toons to just aggro a bunch of targets and drag them into another spawn, letting the enemies bunch up whilst you AoE them. And when on a Team you'll be having to time things between Blaster Nukes anyway.

On a toon without a Taunt Aura and/or punchvoke; I could potentially envisage a few more reasons to take FS... if it didn't have such a long recharge time, if it bunched the mobs up better and if using it didn't cost you nearly two seconds that you could have spent activating a damaging AoE ability. Honestly on my Doms/Blasters/etc that've tried it, they were all better off just using an extra AoE or two.

IMO the only niche situation where it'd be handy to have a power that physically gathers up enemies is when you're fighting something that starts off spread out and won't close to melee range natively (e.g. they have "prefer ranged" AI) which only exists with a few specific enemy types + missions.
 

The gameplay you're describing doesn't happen so much in practice. With a coordinated team you can absolutely make use of your aggro and environment for big pulls where Fold Space would serve nearly no purpose but in pugs this isn't my regular experience at least. You do get this more in high level content.

Sure many packs are nearly gathered to begin with, and if you're dealing with multiple packs the regular tools start to become more efficient, though FS still has occasional use here. I think packs that are not grouped are more common than you're suggesting, I do use this power on most characters and there's a good amount of opportunities, but I'm happy to disagree here.

Yes mobs often come into melee eventually but the wait could be long enough to have impact, fights don't last that long, so seconds count. Your aoe hits 10 targets instead of 4 targets, that's a lot more damage, less need to ST LT's or spam more AOE, more time ST'ing the bosses.

Edited Saturday at 11:49 PM by dukedukes

[Psyonico]

7 hours ago, dukedukes said:

What if a top-tier power, existing or not, themed perfectly for some AT became available to everyone? Do you feel like your AT's identity or value would be reduced?

No.

 

let me introduce you to Judgement powers vs Blaster nukes

 

or Destiny powers and buff sets

 

i don’t think that any of these things lessen the value of any AT.

[dukedukes]

6 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

No.

 

let me introduce you to Judgement powers vs Blaster nukes

 

or Destiny powers and buff sets

 

i don’t think that any of these things lessen the value of any AT.

I do think incarnates do this. I'd prefer them not being in the game, I don't think that battle's winnable though. I feel similarly about sets but I do appreciate the build customization it provides, it's not all bad.

[Psyonico]

One of the things I love about this game is that nothing is required.  No content requires specific team compositions, for example.  After sunset I found my way to Elder Scrolls Online, which is a fine game but content requires specific team makeups.  If you queue for a dungeon, the game requires you to be flagged as a tank, healer, or DPS, and random queues always put together 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 DPS.  Even if you try to queue as a pre-made 4 man team, the game requires  1 player is a tank, 1 player is a healer and 2 players are DPS. Now, you can avoid the queue system and travel to the dungeons manually, and then it doesn’t matter how your team is flagged (or if you even have a team) but most of the DLC dungeons (the harder content in the game) are designed that if you don’t have this makeup, you will fail.  DPS checks exist, heal checks exist, 1-shot mechanics exist for non-tanks.

 

 Quite frankly, it’s not as fun as being able to just go “well, let’s see who’s online and wants to do X”.

 

Especially considering the population of HC, I would hate to have requirements of any kind put into the game.  Want to do X content but you can’t find someone in Y class? Too bad!