Endurance Woes

[Ultimo]

So, today I was playing one of my Defenders.  I have several, and they're all incredibly tedious to play, almost entirely because they run out of endurance in the course of defeating even one minion enemy.  With one exception, they're all L20-25.  The exception is L36 now, I believe.

 

Today's excursion was with my Radiation Emission/Energy Blast Defender.  I did several radio missions.  As it happened, in each the foes were Banished Pantheon.  Many of the Lieutenants (Shamans) were yellow or orange.  The Zombies were usually yellow or white.  Defeating even ONE of these foes used basically all the Defender's endurance, and in several cases I was left trying to defeat them with BRAWL, because I didn't have any endurance for any of my attacks.  This is typical of all my Defender characters.

 

Now, they're usually fairly SAFE to play.  With the Radiation toggles on the enemies, they have a hard time hitting me.  Likewise when it's something like Hurricane.  The Force Fields guys are less well defended (ironically), but have the PFF to fall back on in a pinch.  Endurance costs on Defenders are just absurdly high.

 

Now, I should say that in many cases, they already have the Performace Shifter/Numina/etc. stuff on them.  They're all slotted with endurance reduction in every power.  Short of putting NOTHING but endurance reduction in all the powers, I've done pretty well everything I should be doing to reduce endurance costs.  If I did put more endurance reductions into the powers, the powers themselves would become ineffective at what they're supposed to actually DO... which isn't really a good solution either.

 

My question is, what are Defender players doing to make these characters fun to play?  As it is, they just aren't.  They're tedious and frustrating to play, and I really WANT to like them... In many cases, the AT suits the character concepts in ways no other AT would... but they're just so horrible to play.

 

[Psyonico]

I often wonder what you’re doing, because your experiences and mine are wildly different.

First, all slotting is in SOs, if you’re using DOs, I could see you having a problem.

 You do have AM, right? I’d hope by level 22 you’d have 4 slots in it.  3 recharge SOs and an end mod SO.

 

RI and EF should have 1-2 end Redux slotted by now.

 

 You’re lower level, so I’d assume you have no more than 3 slots in each attack.  They should be 1 acc, 1 end redux, 1 damage.

 

if you’re below 27 on this toon, I don’t know how you have numina’s slotted, since that’s a 30+ set.  You should have the panacea and miracle procs slotted in health by now though.

[merrypessimist]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

I often wonder what you’re doing, because your experiences and mine are wildly different.

First, all slotting is in SOs, if you’re using DOs, I could see you having a problem.

 You do have AM, right? I’d hope by level 22 you’d have 4 slots in it.  3 recharge SOs and an end mod SO.

 

RI and EF should have 1-2 end Redux slotted by now.

 

 You’re lower level, so I’d assume you have no more than 3 slots in each attack.  They should be 1 acc, 1 end redux, 1 damage.

 

if you’re below 27 on this toon, I don’t know how you have numina’s slotted, since that’s a 30+ set.  You should have the panacea and miracle procs slotted in health by now though.

 

Ultimo, when he describes his actual slotting makes some choices that are shall we say... unconventional in his slotting.  As I recall general consensus  is this is the root of his issues.

[Ultimo]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

I often wonder what you’re doing, because your experiences and mine are wildly different.

First, all slotting is in SOs, if you’re using DOs, I could see you having a problem.

 You do have AM, right? I’d hope by level 22 you’d have 4 slots in it.  3 recharge SOs and an end mod SO.

 

RI and EF should have 1-2 end Redux slotted by now.

 

 You’re lower level, so I’d assume you have no more than 3 slots in each attack.  They should be 1 acc, 1 end redux, 1 damage.

 

if you’re below 27 on this toon, I don’t know how you have numina’s slotted, since that’s a 30+ set.  You should have the panacea and miracle procs slotted in health by now though.

Most of the time, I slot just SOs (I never really had the resources to invest in IOs, and it seemed a waste in any case, as I mentioned in a different thread).  My usual way of doing things is to put 1 endurance reduction, one accuracy and 3 damage (if possible) in any attacks, and 1 endurance reduction and 3 other in anything like armours or hurricane or what have you.  That's fine on most of my characters.  My Tankers have some issues at times, but usually get by ok... but the Defenders really suffer.

 

The character has Accelerate Metabolism, and that's really the only way he's able to do much of anything, and it's not up all the time.  Even when it IS up, he's usually at around 1/3 to 1/2 endurance by the time he's defeated two or three bad guys.  That's on that one particular character.  Other Defenders don't have the luxury of AM.

 

And that's the point I'm making.  THIS Defender does have a power that helps, even if only slightly.  I have one with Recovery Aura (Empathy), and he does ok... so long as the effect is still up.

 

I'm really not sure where the endurance is GOING.  That is, his attacks use the same endurance as a Blaster's attacks, but do a fraction of the damage... which means he has to attack more often for the same effect, which means using more endurance.  Is that the source of the issue, or is it the toggles, things like Hurricane, Steamy Mist, Enervating Field or what have you?

 

I just find it so difficult to enjoy the class.  They don't seem to be much good at anything.  Sure, they help their team decently well... but even there, their contribution is minimal.  Unless the Defender never attacks, he's basically always out of endurance.

 

Not all of them have Numina's, Performance Shifter, et al. but a couple of them do.  I've never really noticed that it helps much.  One thing I tried on my Storm Control/Electric Blast Defender was to put a Performance Shifter into each of the Electric Blasts, in addition to Stamina; the idea being that each time he used a blast, there was a chance to proc, in addition to the effects in Stamina.  That also didn't seem to help much.

 

Now, I could put more endurance reduction slots into the powers, but that reduces their effects.  If I swap one of the Damage enhancements for an Endurance Reduction, it means his damage is even LOWER than it is now (or rather, than it would be once it was fully slotted).

 

I'm kind of posting to vent, but also genuinely to ask how people are able to enjoy the Defender as an AT, considering how hampered it is.

[Psyonico]

2 hours ago, Psyonico said:

I often wonder what you’re doing, because your experiences and mine are wildly different.

Going to quote this again for emphasis.

 

other than storm summoning, no defender primary feels all that endurance heavy to me.  Storm summoning is a rare case of having lots of end heavy toggles and Tornado/Lightning Storm have extremely high base endurance costs.

 

TA? No end issues and I think the only thing I slot an end redux in before I switch to sets is disruption arrow.

 

Empathy has the distinct disadvantage of not giving you any sort of +damage or -resist, so the scalers do hurt you by causing you to have to attack more.  However, Vigilance kicks in to give you an extra 30% damage while solo.

 

 But, as I said in another post, defender primaries are Support they’re designed to make your team stronger, which does not necessarily mean it makes you stronger.

[Wobegone]

7 hours ago, Ultimo said:

So, today I was playing one of my Defenders.  I have several, and they're all incredibly tedious to play, almost entirely because they run out of endurance in the course of defeating even one minion enemy.  

 

I've been sitting here for five minutes trying to respond to this in a constructive way and.....I can't.  It's either gross exaggeration or you haven't slotted your attacks and are running a bunch of toggles.  As per usual, you don't provide a build which would help us pinpoint exactly why you're having problems.  With energy blast, even on a Defender, you should be pinballing them everywhere and if slotted properly (and actually taking at least 3 of the attacks) you should be doing plenty of damage.  Solo, you shouldn't need Radiation Emission's toggles on even con enemies unless they're bosses.  Energy Blast has terrific mitigation by itself.   

[Ultimo]

9 hours ago, Wobegone said:

 

I've been sitting here for five minutes trying to respond to this in a constructive way and.....I can't.  It's either gross exaggeration or you haven't slotted your attacks and are running a bunch of toggles.  As per usual, you don't provide a build which would help us pinpoint exactly why you're having problems.  With energy blast, even on a Defender, you should be pinballing them everywhere and if slotted properly (and actually taking at least 3 of the attacks) you should be doing plenty of damage.  Solo, you shouldn't need Radiation Emission's toggles on even con enemies unless they're bosses.  Energy Blast has terrific mitigation by itself.   

Well, I didn't present a build because I was referring to the AT in general, across several builds.

The character that kind of instigated the thread is Radiation Emission/Energy Blast, and usually has the two Rad toggles on the enemy, plus Maneuvers and Assault, and then Hover (which uses minimal endurance).  He has just three attacks, Power Bolt, Power Burst and Sniper Blast (he does have Energy Torrent, but rarely uses it).  Since he has no defenses to speak of, even a single attack from a foe does a huge amount of damage.  A Boss level enemy can take out 80% of his health in one shot.  Lieutenants can take out 50%.  Minions more like 20%... so it's better if he doesn't get hit.  That means using the toggles.  Besides, what's the point of having the powers if you can't use them?

 

However, as I said, he's not the only one with issues.  Pretty well every Defender I've ever played has issues with endurance.  Not that I've played every power combination.  I've never played Trick Arrow to any appreciable level, for example (I do have a character with it, but he's a Corruptor, and only around L10).  Maybe it's just the powers I tend to pick that are problematic.

[arcane]

47 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

Well, I didn't present a build because I was referring to the AT in general, across several builds.

The character that kind of instigated the thread is Radiation Emission/Energy Blast, and usually has the two Rad toggles on the enemy, plus Maneuvers and Assault, and then Hover (which uses minimal endurance).  He has just three attacks, Power Bolt, Power Burst and Sniper Blast (he does have Energy Torrent, but rarely uses it).  Since he has no defenses to speak of, even a single attack from a foe does a huge amount of damage.  A Boss level enemy can take out 80% of his health in one shot.  Lieutenants can take out 50%.  Minions more like 20%... so it's better if he doesn't get hit.  That means using the toggles.  Besides, what's the point of having the powers if you can't use them?

 

However, as I said, he's not the only one with issues.  Pretty well every Defender I've ever played has issues with endurance.  Not that I've played every power combination.  I've never played Trick Arrow to any appreciable level, for example (I do have a character with it, but he's a Corruptor, and only around L10).  Maybe it's just the powers I tend to pick that are problematic.

Go ahead and provide screenshots of the Rad/Energy build as an example. Good chance you’re making similar mistakes across multiple builds.

[laudwic]

My Marine/Electric Blast Defender is fine with End.  Nice thing with Electric blast, you drain them of end, they are no threat to you, and you get some end discounts (get some back) when fighting a drained opponent.

[BurnTheWitch]

13 hours ago, Psyonico said:

But, as I said in another post, defender primaries are Support they’re designed to make your team stronger, which does not necessarily mean it makes you stronger.

Preach! If you want to play a defender to 50 solo. . I just feel (doesn't make it true) that corrupting ia the way to go.  I digress.

 

I’m not going to sit here and pretend that I’m any kind of expert on defenders, I have one and it’s dark/dark, so really a deftroller of sorts with the current build out. My wife is the defender fiend so I’ve consulted her for more balanced opinions. That being said. . . 

 

I never had any difficulty with endurance compared to other archetypes. Sure, I ran out of endurance, 1st, 2nd, and 4th mission if Yin come to mind, but that has everything to do with freakshow and nothing to do with being a defender. The build was not good. I have exemplared her down to do another Yin and it was completely different now that a proper build with some attuned stuff in some slots and a few IOs that are still working at that level. No endurance issues. 

 

More testing data-

 

• Just finished a Yin with my wife, she played her FF/Ice defender, no issues with endurance and we were racing through it as fast as we could to see what we could make happen(finished in about 15 minutes.) .
• I'll have her run on another one, but I'm confident of the results.  Her defenders are rather expensive builds, this may be a factor I cannot account for.
• You might be wondering why I’m using Yin as the benchmark? You said level 20-25 and I don’t like Citadel as much.

I'd love so see a screen shot of your build, because I'm just baffled as to why you might be having issues.  Doesn't even have to be a mids download build.  I can make it in mids from the screen shot.

 

[PyroNugget]

panacea proc ,miracle proc,and numinas proc all make a great deal of difference-- also noted you never mentioned slotting END MOD(dark blue)--which is different from END REDUCITION(light blue)--peformance shifter END MOD+the proc is the usual slotting--not just the proc

 

RAD toggle are expensive --dbl to triple end use of armor--slot 2 END REDUC in each--also slot 2 -tohit in radition infection-that should get you to 46% which is the same as having 45% armor if they are in the feild.

that also means the 3.75% DEF from manuevers is only wasting your END.use it in teams, not needed solo(untill later if you spend the millions and go for more DEF with sets/uniques)

--ACCEL METAB-- find the cash and get 4 END MOD/RECH pieces--you can get 2 (efficacy adaptor and preemtive optimization) for less than 500k each--the other 2 are usually 1 million each.

--you are flying--turn  off sprint,turn off fly when fighting

 

and last but not least--the SNIPE is killing your end--2x end reduc in it and think twice before using, because it is using 15 END a pop before reduction

 

TLDR: slot better--turn off toggles that are not helping you

[Psylenz0511]

14 minutes ago, PyroNugget said:

panacea proc ,miracle proc,and numinas proc all make a great deal of difference-- also noted you never mentioned slotting END MOD(dark blue)--which is different from END REDUCITION(light blue)--peformance shifter END MOD+the proc is the usual slotting--not just the proc

 

RAD toggle are expensive --dbl to triple end use of armor--slot 2 END REDUC in each--also slot 2 -tohit in radition infection-that should get you to 46% which is the same as having 45% armor if they are in the feild.

that also means the 3.75% DEF from manuevers is only wasting your END.use it in teams, not needed solo(untill later if you spend the millions and go for more DEF with sets/uniques)

--ACCEL METAB-- find the cash and get 4 END MOD/RECH pieces--you can get 2 (efficacy adaptor and preemtive optimization) for less than 500k each--the other 2 are usually 1 million each.

--you are flying--turn  off sprint,turn off fly when fighting

 

and last but not least--the SNIPE is killing your end--2x end reduc in it and think twice before using, because it is using 15 END a pop before reduction

 

TLDR: slot better--turn off toggles that are not helping you

Just chiming in to support this post

 "find the cash and get 4 END MOD/RECH pieces" remember these are invention origin enhancements available on the auction house for the prices the quoted poster shows.

[Erratic1]

19 hours ago, Psyonico said:

But, as I said in another post, defender primaries are Support they’re designed to make your team stronger, which does not necessarily mean it makes you stronger.

 

5 hours ago, BurnTheWitch said:

Preach! If you want to play a defender to 50 solo. . I just feel (doesn't make it true) that corrupting ia the way to go.  I digress.

 

My first character in Live, at launch, was a Radiation/Electrical Defender. I soloed on her quite often, back when the level cap was 40. I remember street sweeping in Brickstown with her back in the days before there was Vigilance. I wish I still had the screenshot of her standing in the middle of a swarm of 5th Column safely setting off Thunderous Blast. Yes, a Corruptor will likely have an easier time, but it is not as horrific as is being suggested, particularly now with IO sets and pieces being plenty available.

 

If you are running out of endurance on a Defender, particularly now, something...far from optimal is going on. Accelerate Metabolism will not be perma until you invest sufficiently to get global recharge to the point where you are doing perma-Hasten anyway, but it is helpful for when you are facing a longer fight both for +damage and +endurance. 

[Maelwys]

13 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

If you are running out of endurance on a Defender, particularly now, something...far from optimal is going on. 

 

This.

The only characters I can consistently run myself out of endurance on (and therefore NEED to take Ageless on) are my VEAT Widows.
IME Defenders are not Endurance Heavy; unless their player has accidentally left multiple travel toggles running or something equally derpful.
 

Edited Friday at 10:43 PM by Maelwys

[Lunar Ronin]

4 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

 

This.

The only characters I can consistently run myself out of endurance on (and therefore NEED to take Ageless on) are my VEAT Widows.
IME Defenders are not Endurance Heavy; unless their player has accidentally left multiple travel toggles running or something equally derpful.
 

 

To be fair, there are a couple of very endurance hungry Defender primary power sets.  Sonic Resonance says, "Hello."

 

You have never known struggling for endurance until you have played a Sonic Resonance Mastermind.

[Heatstroke]

It would be great if you could post your build. Most End issues I have seen on builds is usually from horrific slotting. IOs do go a LONG way in end managerment, I would definitely suggest starting to look at how to make IO based builds because it will help. 

Here is my guide to End Management and Stamina.. Its what people have taught me and what I have learned over the years. 
 

 

[Erratic1]

20 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

To be fair, there are a couple of very endurance hungry Defender primary power sets.  Sonic Resonance says, "Hello."

 

You have never known struggling for endurance until you have played a Sonic Resonance Mastermind.

 

Dark Armor looks over and threatens, "Don't make me call up my friend Radiation Melee...I'll do it."

[Ultimo]

Ok, here's what he has so far.  There is Stealth off the bottom of the list, but it's not something I use much, just for situations when I want to slip past enemies unnoticed.

This character doesn't have the Panacea/Numina/Perfomance Shifter stuff, I had moved them (I think it was just the Peformance Shifter) off him to a different character after a respec... but I keep coming back to this guy because I really WANT him to work... but it's just not going that way.

 

Edited Friday at 11:14 PM by Ultimo

[Maelwys]

Just now, Lunar Ronin said:

To be fair, there are a couple of very endurance hungry Defender primary power sets.  Sonic Resonance says, "Hello."

 

You have never known struggling for endurance until you have played a Sonic Resonance Mastermind.

I actually ran a Sonic/ Defender for years on Live as one of my mains (it was the toon I used to bring out for MoSTF runs) even back before IOs were a thing.

And IIRC even in those days it was perfectly fine;  as long as you were sensible with the EndRed slotting in the two big culprits (e.g. Sonic Dispersion and Disruption Field) and took the Fitness pool. Although admittedly the passive accolades helped too. These days with inherent fitness and IOs and Procs/Globals/Set Bonuses? Spoilt Rotten.

Really my only issues with Endurance on MMs have been to do with the Henchmen blowing through their blue bars... aside from my Bot/Traps Tripmine spammer circa i7... 🙈

[Maelwys]

1 minute ago, Ultimo said:

Ok, here's what he has so far.  There is Stealth off the bottom of the list, but it's not something I use much, just for situations when I want to slip past enemies unnoticed.

 

 

Question: Are you running Choking Cloud and Enervating Field and Radiation Infection constantly?
All three of those are >0.5 End/Sec toggles and should be taking the equivalent of 2x EndRed SOs minimum IMO.
Throw in 2x Leadership Toggles too? AND HOVER?!?

Also you're really shooting yourself in the foot by not taking the obvious IO procs: Panacea + Miracle + Numina in Health; Performance Shifter in Stamina.
That'd provide more than an additional 1 End/Sec by itself and you wouldn't need to even rejig your slotting.

 

[Erratic1]

9 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

Ok, here's what he has so far.  There is Stealth off the bottom of the list, but it's not something I use much, just for situations when I want to slip past enemies unnoticed.

This character doesn't have the Panacea/Numina/Perfomance Shifter stuff, I had moved them (I think it was just the Peformance Shifter) off him to a different character after a respec... but I keep coming back to this guy because I really WANT him to work... but it's just not going that way.

 

You have no damage in your attack powers. It is definitely going to require a more endurance to defeat things if you have to hit them twice as often as would be the case if you 3-slotted your attack powers with damage enhancements.

 

Respec. Take 2 slots out of Choking Cloud, 2 slots out of Radiation Infection, 2 slots out of Health, and 2 slots out of Hover. Put those if your attack powers.

Edited Friday at 11:23 PM by Erratic1

[Ultimo]

1 minute ago, Maelwys said:

Question: Are you running Choking Cloud and Enervating Field and Radiation Infection constantly?
All three of those are >0.5 End/Sec toggles and should be taking the equivalent of 2x EndRed SOs minimum IMO.
Throw in 2x Leadership Toggles too? AND HOVER?!?

Also you're really shooting yourself in the foot by not taking the obvious IO procs: Panacea + Miracle + Numina in Health; Performance Shifter in Stamina.
That'd provide more than an additional 1 End/Sec by itself and you wouldn't need to even rejig your slotting.

 

No, Choking Cloud is situational too.  I honestly don't use it very much, I'd been considering dropping it.  Enervating Field and Radiation Infection DO usually both get used pretty much constantly, as they're my only real defense.  I probably don't NEED both running, the -ToHit from Enervating Field is usually plenty, but the -Dmg from Radiation Infection is very useful for those attacks that DO hit.  (actually, swap those, I got the names reversed).

Hover uses very little endurance, and I usually run only Assault, to boost my own damage.  Maneuvers is usually for teams, and might be useful later if I can get some more Defense powers, like Weave or Combat Jumping.  I'm still tinkering.

[Ultimo]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

You have no damage in your attack powers. It is definitely going to require a more endurance to defeat things if you have to hit them twice as often as would be the case if you 3-slotted your attack powers with damage enhancements.

 

Respec. Take 2 slots out of Choking Cloud, 2 slots out of Radiation Infection, 2 slots out of Health, and 2 slots out of Hover. Put those if your attack powers.

It's something I was considering.  I even mentioned it above.  I'll definitely try that. 

 

My usual strategy was always to build my defenses FIRST, on the notion that damage is useless if I'm dead.  Clearly, that's not working so well.  I've been building around damage for some of my other characters (notably my Tankers and Stalkers), and they're doing better overall.

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

My usual strategy was always to build my defenses FIRST, on the notion that damage is useless if I'm dead.  Clearly, that's not working so well. 

 

It is true, defeated defenders do no damage. Blasting things to unconsciousness is a good way to prevent that defeat in the first place. 😁

 

You do have the right attitude towards Choking Cloud--it is a situational power. A very useful one for those situations, but not something to be toggled on all the time. As for staying alive, Radiation Infection on things which get close (making sure to kill the anchor last) helps immensely. Moreover, at lower levels it does not need a lot of slotting to be going an awesome job for you. At higher levels, you'll want the slots to maximize its -To-Hit. 

 

Btw, this is utterly up to how you want to build your character, but Evasive Manuevers does not require you to be flying or hovering to work. Between Evasive Maneuvers, Weave, and the two +3% Def IOs, you could be up towards 26% defense, which then would leverage the -To-Hit Lingering Infection brings to the table. And all this without an IO investment beyond the two +3% DEf IOs (stick them in Tough). At that point you'd be pretty much minimally hittable to anything impacted by Lingering Radiation. 

[Maelwys]

5 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

I'm still tinkering.

You look like you're at level ~25.

If it was me, with those power selections I'd be slotting them like this:


And then sticking attuned Luck of the Gamblers into Stealth, Hover and Maneuvers ASAP.

However I'd strongly recommend swapping Stealth for Infiltration and putting a Stealth IO into Sprint (you'd keep full invisibility but gain a useful Travel power)

Picking up Hasten with your 4th pool will help with AM (and Nova) recharge a bit.
Taking Aim with 1-2 Recharge SO/IOs plus a Gaussian Proc will also help you kill stuff much faster.

Lots of other bits too obviously once it reaches higher levels; but that's the bare minimum IO leveraging I'd consider for "decent performance whilst levelling up".