MAKE ENDURACE A NON ISSUE

[Ultimo]

I'll say this... back on live, I played for years before finally giving up and quitting the game.  The reason I quit: Endurance management.  I've said it many times, I feel like I spend more time fighting my own powers than fighting the bad guys.

 

I understand that endurance SHOULD be an issue in certain situations, such as when you're facing sappers of one sort or another... but in other situations, you shouldn't be struggling to use your powers.  It's especially bad on Defenders, Dominators and Tankers, in my experience.  I suspect it has something to do with their attacks doing comparatively less damage for the same endurance cost.  If the attacks are going to do less damage, they should use less endurance.

 

In the end, the game is about being a superhero, and it doesn't feel very super when you have to just stand there and wait before you can actually DO anything.  It's more fun when we can actually use our powers.

[Shin Magmus]

   I reiterate what I said earlier but more briefly: if you learn and grow you will find many options to mitigate or completely fix endurance issues even available at lv1, from the first actions you take.  Keep in mind that instead of starting with 0 Inf, you may want to email your new lowbie 10-20 mil Inf to facilitate this.  That teensy sum can be earned by any lv50 just doing some radio mishes for a few hours, and much faster in other ways.

 

   Ultimo, we've tried to help you build characters as well but it seems like you really don't want to learn and instead want the game to hand you a victory no matter how weak your build is.  The RPG part of MMORPG does imply some level of "gear" and "building", stats getting bigger and whatnot, so that's just how this game works.

[Ultimo]

47 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

   I reiterate what I said earlier but more briefly: if you learn and grow you will find many options to mitigate or completely fix endurance issues even available at lv1, from the first actions you take.  Keep in mind that instead of starting with 0 Inf, you may want to email your new lowbie 10-20 mil Inf to facilitate this.  That teensy sum can be earned by any lv50 just doing some radio mishes for a few hours, and much faster in other ways.

 

   Ultimo, we've tried to help you build characters as well but it seems like you really don't want to learn and instead want the game to hand you a victory no matter how weak your build is.  The RPG part of MMORPG does imply some level of "gear" and "building", stats getting bigger and whatnot, so that's just how this game works.

You misunderstand me.  I'm not saying it's impossible to compensate to some extent, I'm just saying that it's not much fun having to struggle to compensate for what some consider to be a bad design.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

In the end, the game is about being a superhero, and it doesn't feel very super when you have to just stand there and wait before you can actually DO anything.  It's more fun when we can actually use our powers.

I can't recall how many times in the comics supers of various stripes ran away or hid or had to be rescued by another super or a combination of the three because said supers were too tired to fight any more. From characters that come out strong swinging for the fences with their powers while the more experienced supers just let them until they tire out and the opposing super can just crush the now helpless foe to supers that found themselves in protracted fights they lacked the stamina for. Endurance management is part and parcel of the super hero genre.

 

(Edit: Hells, in TTRPGs like Marvel Superheroes and HERO System Champions, endurance management is a major consideration of your characters. [Edit again: And at least in the case of HERO System, you can kill your character by pushing yourself too far past your endurance pool.])

 

Edited yesterday at 08:57 AM by Rudra

[Ultimo]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I can't recall how many times in the comics supers of various stripes ran away or hid or had to be rescued by another super or a combination of the three because said supers were too tired to fight any more. From characters that come out strong swinging for the fences with their powers while the more experienced supers just let them until they tire out and the opposing super can just crush the now helpless foe to supers that found themselves in protracted fights they lacked the stamina for. Endurance management is part and parcel of the super hero genre.

Of course, it did happen in the comics, but in most cases, it was after some kind of herculean effort.  A young Cyclops used his Optic Blasts to blow a massive generator through a stone wall, and passed right out from the exertion.  It does happen, but not commonly.  Then there are the characters who are essentially tireless, like Superman, Thor, even Captain America.  Naturally, not everything in the comics can translate into a game, but there remains that question of what is FUN.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Ultimo said:

Then there are the characters who are essentially tireless, like Superman, Thor, even Captain America.

You're right. Superman, Thor, and Captain America all have limitless endurance supplies. Except in an episode of the Justice League cartoon where Superman had to rest from fatigue. Or that sure, Thor has an endurance rating of Unearthly, which should mean unlimited endurance, except endurance doesn't cap at Unearthly and goes all the way up to Class 5000, cosmic scale for being able to keep fighting, so even he has a limit. (Which was listed as like a month if I remember.) Or that Captain America only has Remarkable endurance and will definitely tire out long before Spider-Man, She-Hulk, or Doctor Doom.

 

Regardless, endurance is part of the game and most definitely manageable. Out of my 50s, only 1 can't fight forever, and that is because that character isn't built to do so. Endurance is only a problem if not adequately built for, not managed by not always just using the biggest powers you have, or if you don't prioritize those darned Sappers and they get the chance to nuke the blue bar.

[Steampunkette]

I've been playing this game almost 20 years.

 

Attacks get one accuracy SO, first, so my end isn't wasted. If the cost of the power is 8-10 it gets one end reduction. If it costs more it gets two.

 

Toggles get their defensive functions first, up to 3, then 2 End mods.

 

Later I go back with MidsReborn and design an IO Build for set bonuses... Ostensibly.

 

At this point I mostly just make the build before the character. >.> But those have long been my SO Slotting Rules!

 

And if you wanna get FANCY with it, toss a Performance Shifter +Endurance into Stamina and a Panacea +Health +Endurance into Health.

 

Then take 3 seconds between fights to occasionally use the Rest power instead of rushing 3 spawns in a row without any kind of time recovering End and HP.

 

Your endurance issues will be gone outside of Sappers and Super Stunner fights.

[baster]

12 hours ago, Ghost said:

It really sounds like instead of learning and growing, you are dead set on just having things made easier for you - which will ultimately end with you becoming bored with the game.

 

I sure hope you reconsider, and let us help you better understand how to build characters - it can be done without spending a fortune.

In the long run, you’ll enjoy the game a lot longer.

No. I just like being able to use my rotations and enjoy using my new acquired powers while I'm leveling, as I'm leveling instead of sitting there winded with emersion braking downtime between each group of mobs or even not being able to through a group of mobs because of out of whack endurance issues and having to wait for tics to be able to use lowest ability to hopefully finish the mob before I drop dead.

 

Key note is: emersion braking, excessive downtime!

[tidge]

11 hours ago, Psyonico said:

I’ve had a few builds where I’ve done everything “right” and still had endurance issues pre-alpha slot.  Shield/Axe and Shield/Rad come to mind.  Now, this was pre Harmonic Mind, so I don’t know how the sets would have fared if I could have taken that.

 

i wouldn’t mind another power pool that has an endurance management power in it, even if it’s locked to T4 in the pool so you have to have 2 other powers from the pool before you can take it.  Having to rely on Recovery Serum is not a fun choice to me.

 

I invest in IO pieces that can give +End, +Recovery before level 20, and by that point all my attacks have some endurance reduction in them. The inherent Fitness pool *is* the place to slot these!

 

After these, it becomes straigtforward to work on +MaxEnd Accolades.

 

There are some primary/secondary that will struggle with burning the blue bar. In my experience this is usually due to:

• Running Hasten as often and as early as possible. (*1)
• Keeping Toggles on, and not paying attention to the endurance cost of toggles (Sprint, Athletic Run are big culprits)
• Attacking too often (at low levels, Temp and Prestige attack powers make this easy) <- a typical instanced mission should allow plenty of recovery between spawns when playing solo

There are some specific Armors I find require special attention, and a couple of the VEAT paths can be demanding of Endurance. Otherwise the tools I have available can handle the blue bar just fine (Dominators are a sort of special case).

 

I often pooh-pooh Hasten, and a LOT of my meh feels about it originate from my perception (so my fault!) that a LOT of players associate moar attacks/moar often with a "winning strategy"... but unless the focus is only on high-level content with only inherently slowish attacks in a very precise attack chain, it should be possible with smart slotting (and leveraging the easy-to-get IO sets) to not need Hasten to support T1 thru T5 attack powers.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the builds having serious Endurance problems aren't making old-school build choices like Hasten, plus Tough and Weave (the latter two always being toggled on).

 

 

[baster]

11 hours ago, WumpusRat said:

 

See, I disagree when you say that running out of endurance "breaks immersion". Personally, being able to "fight for days" when you're just starting out seems less immersive.

A brand new hero isn't going to be as well-versed in their abilities, won't be able to manage the strain of using them and pace themselves as easily.

More experience (and mechanically, more slots, better slotting, etc) allows the character to fight more efficiently and effectively, using their powers with less strain.

And in the late-game, when you're fully slotted and have as many holes in your powers plugged as possible, you can "fight for days" without worrying about most things. 

 

Managing your endurance for a character is part of the game. If you're struggling with the willpower set, you're definitely doing something wrong.

How many slots do you have in stamina? How many slots do you have in quick recovery? Do you have SO's in them? How many end reducers do you have in your powers?

Are all the SOs up to date? 

 

My shield/axe tank was struggling with end issues all the way to 50, and I would constantly tinker with the build to try and get a bit more duration of her capacity in combat. Now that she's got her "final build" done, she's got no end issues at all (unless I run up against stuff that drains end), and she can "fight for days", as long as I don't go too ham on stuff. No using my biggest end attack on something that has a sliver of health left, for instance. 

 

So no, making endurance "a non-issue" wouldn't add any more fun to the game. It would just be removing a layer of complexity from the game. "Dumbing it down" as it were.

End is fine. As a new player instead of asking something to be removed to make it easier, ask for advice on how to deal with it. 

 

3 slit stsm with sos 

3 slot recovery with sos

1 reducer in each attack sos

All the ones that don't diminish with leveling. Level 25 sos 32% ters if I remember correctly.

 

I'm not saying there shouldn't be feeling of character progression. There defenitly should be, however standing around winded not being able to finish a group of mobs or waiting fir tics of end to use lowest ability to kill thr mob hopefully before it kills you, and not being able to use amd enjoy your big hitters that you ware looking forward to leveling up I'd not fun, it's emersion braking, frustrating and over all bad game design.

 

There is a reason only few thousand people play CoH and millions play WoW.

And before you all jump on me and tell to go  play WoW, I have, for many years, it's a full time job, it's a life for which I don't have time.  Besides I love CoH and most everything about it. Still great game, still a lot of fun in so many ways, however that doesrnt mean it can't be improved or criticized for its shortcomings. 

And for me, as a  returning player after what is it 15 years or so, The are glaring issues that should be addressed to make the game smoother and more enjoyable and one of these is correcting some of the sets massive, out of whack endurance usages such as Axe, Spider Soldier and I'm sure several others I'm not currently.aware off in order to make playing these sets enjoyable while leveling  throughout the jurney of kebel8ng and not only, well look onve you get to 50 and farm your ars off and save up billion of influance snd buy this and that sets then at that point you will be able to use most of you attacks most of the time as you stated?  Seriously!! Wtf.  

 

People can get used to everything, they adapt to everything no matter of how out if whack or broken it is and eventually think that's fine and just the way it is. 

 

Well it's not OK, it's broken, it's been broken for a very long time and it's time to fix it. My opinion, my vantage point.

[baster]

12 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

For the record I’ve played just about every expansion of WoW. And I’ve found every version of it inferior to City of Heroes.

Getting around the puzzle of end management and primary/secondary set building with the variety that set bonuses, the incarnate system and procs give in this game is 1000% times more interesting than any of the “choices” I’ve played throughout WoW’s life time.
 

So you’re going to have a hard time convincing me (and I bet many other players of this game) that end should be changed in this game by comparing it to that game.

 

WoW is pretty much a game where they practically abandoned every meta system they built nearly every expansion.

Again no thanks to the original suggestion.

I like or even love CoH for what it is. A great game with a crap tol of fun to be had. However, just like every game it isn't perfect and not everyone likes everything about everything. My point of view as a returning player but mostly new returning player since in the live game I never got to 50 before it shot down.

 

As it relates to WoW,  there are great many things to love about Classic wow and up to the Lich King and many not to like pass that point.  However you have a hard time convincing me that you miss the times in classic wow where you had to sit and drink to replenish your mana bar constantly. Whitish wax slow, painstaking process along the lines of endurance in CoH while leveling as new player without set bonuses here. 

 

That's assuming you are even old enough to have been around when WoW lounched and actually got to experience that. 

I was, so I'm speaking from. Experience not here say.

 

To further my point, as great as CoH is, thousands of people play it vs millions or 10ns of millions that play WoW and clearly there are reasons why that is.

 

Furthermore if a mainstay of s game has to be endurance management then that means the game doasent have enough to offer and is to shallow in its other aspects to hold the attention of its players.

My opinion, my vantage point. 

 

 

[baster]

23 hours ago, VPrime said:

I legitimately enjoy the "game within a game" of building to make endurance a non issue on a character.

 

I think all the different endurance management options adds to the enjoyment.

I'm glad you find not being able to consistently and meaningfully being able to use your big hitting abilities that you ware looking forward aquring while leveling enjoyable once you got them  and I'm.glad you find sitting there winded waiting for endurance tics so you are able to use your basic senility to hopefully fin8sh the mob before it kills you fun, personally I fo not. It's not a good game design. Thete is plenty of other things to that make you feel progression such as hitting harder, being more accurate, getting tougher etc.. not to have to deal with not being able to use your attack rotations or having to turn off your tangled to be able to use your attacks more, not constantly just more. It's totally ridiculous, emersion braking and not fun. 

 

I know des thousand of ypu got used to it as people will prety much get used to anything giving time  but that doesn't mean it's good.

 

There is a reason only fes thousand play this game and not hundreds of thousands.

[tidge]

9 minutes ago, baster said:

... sitting there winded waiting for endurance tics so you are able to use your basic senility to hopefully fin8sh the mob before it kills you fun, personally I fo not.

 

This is not my experience in the game... except maybe the senility.

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, baster said:

No. I just like being able to use my rotations and enjoy using my new acquired powers while I'm leveling, as I'm leveling instead of sitting there winded with emersion braking downtime between each group of mobs or even not being able to through a group of mobs because of out of whack endurance issues and having to wait for tics to be able to use lowest ability to hopefully finish the mob before I drop dead.

 

Key note is: emersion braking, excessive downtime!

Again, it’s most likely very fixable but you have to WANT to fix it.

I have just under 50 toons.  The majority under lvl50 and of various ATs, with only SOs (in other words, not much influence invested) and none are experiencing what you are claiming.

The only one that comes even remotely close, is Dark Armor - and I can still make it through a mob.

 

If you want help understanding builds, we are all here to help.  
These forums are full of people asking for help with various issues - from newbies to veterans.  There’s nothing wrong with seeking a little advice.

But if you just want the game made even easier than it already is, rather than trying putting in even the tiniest bit of effort…..well, I’m really not sure what to tell you.

 

[golstat2003]

12 hours ago, Psyonico said:

I’ve had a few builds where I’ve done everything “right” and still had endurance issues pre-alpha slot.  Shield/Axe and Shield/Rad come to mind.  Now, this was pre Harmonic Mind, so I don’t know how the sets would have fared if I could have taken that.

 

i wouldn’t mind another power pool that has an endurance management power in it, even if it’s locked to T4 in the pool so you have to have 2 other powers from the pool before you can take it.  Having to rely on Recovery Serum is not a fun choice to me.

Now THIS I could get behind. A universal pool that anyone can take would ADD to the “end management” puzzle. Good suggestion!

[golstat2003]

8 hours ago, Ultimo said:

I'll say this... back on live, I played for years before finally giving up and quitting the game.  The reason I quit: Endurance management.  I've said it many times, I feel like I spend more time fighting my own powers than fighting the bad guys.

 

I understand that endurance SHOULD be an issue in certain situations, such as when you're facing sappers of one sort or another... but in other situations, you shouldn't be struggling to use your powers.  It's especially bad on Defenders, Dominators and Tankers, in my experience.  I suspect it has something to do with their attacks doing comparatively less damage for the same endurance cost.  If the attacks are going to do less damage, they should use less endurance.

 

In the end, the game is about being a superhero, and it doesn't feel very super when you have to just stand there and wait before you can actually DO anything.  It's more fun when we can actually use our powers.

It’s an MMORPG first before it’s a superhero game. That’s always been the case.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, baster said:

I like or even love CoH for what it is. A great game with a crap tol of fun to be had. However, just like every game it isn't perfect and not everyone likes everything about everything. My point of view as a returning player but mostly new returning player since in the live game I never got to 50 before it shot down.

 

As it relates to WoW,  there are great many things to love about Classic wow and up to the Lich King and many not to like pass that point.  However you have a hard time convincing me that you miss the times in classic wow where you had to sit and drink to replenish your mana bar constantly. Whitish wax slow, painstaking process along the lines of endurance in CoH while leveling as new player without set bonuses here. 

 

That's assuming you are even old enough to have been around when WoW lounched and actually got to experience that. 

I was, so I'm speaking from. Experience not here say.

 

To further my point, as great as CoH is, thousands of people play it vs millions or 10ns of millions that play WoW and clearly there are reasons why that is.

 

Furthermore if a mainstay of s game has to be endurance management then that means the game doasent have enough to offer and is to shallow in its other aspects to hold the attention of its players.

My opinion, my vantage point. 

 

 

I played WoW from launch to latest expansion. (And promptly quit every time I got to max level of said expansion). The game’s build choices are actually terrible as there are really no build choices at all. In that aspect WoW fails for me as compared to this game in terms of complexity. There are only a few paths for each build in WoW for each class as opposed to the multiple we have here.

 

And yes, in fact many times the meta systems they built for their expansions they abandon the next expansion. And that’s mostly because they keep racing for the higher level / raid / gear treadmill. They even did a stat squish a few years back (FF14 did also) so that they could again put the treadmill back in.

 

I don’t care what millions of folks play. I prefer this game and the complexity it has brought to a rather stale genre: mmos in general.

 

As for this game, End management is easy to figure out in this game. I said it was a puzzle, I never said it was a hard puzzle.

Edited yesterday at 03:24 PM by golstat2003

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, baster said:

My opinion, my vantage point. 

I completely respect your right to that opinion. I just also completely disagree with it.

 

I find nothing immersion breaking about people who are just starting their hero careers needing to pause and use Rest. Heck, watch the Netflix Daredevil 2015 series, see how often Murdock limps back to Claire to get patched up. And he's only fighitng a few groups of people per night, he's not clearing 30 separate spawns on the same map, over and over again.  I feel like you demand Superman / Thor levels of performance from your character immediately out of the gate, without any time to develop, and I think that's your biggest problem.

 

But I am willing to agree to disagree.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, baster said:

No. I just like being able to use my rotations and enjoy using my new acquired powers while I'm leveling, as I'm leveling instead of sitting there winded with emersion braking downtime between each group of mobs or even not being able to through a group of mobs because of out of whack endurance issues and having to wait for tics to be able to use lowest ability to hopefully finish the mob before I drop dead.

 

Key note is: emersion braking, excessive downtime!

You want to talk about immersion? When characters in the comics develop new, more powerful abilities, they don't spam those new, more powerful abilities. Because it is too tiring or dangerous for them to do so. And the more those characters have to use their new, more powerful abilities, the more downtime they need to recover from using them. Then they master those abilities and start using them more regularly. Just like how in the game, those new, more powerful abilities our characters get tend to have higher endurance costs, and so we need to spend time adding slots to them and then slotting enhancements into those powers to use them effectively.

[baster]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

I completely respect your right to that opinion. I just also completely disagree with it.

 

I find nothing immersion breaking about people who are just starting their hero careers needing to pause and use Rest. Heck, watch the Netflix Daredevil 2015 series, see how often Murdock limps back to Claire to get patched up. And he's only fighitng a few groups of people per night, he's not clearing 30 separate spawns on the same map, over and over again.  I feel like you demand Superman / Thor levels of performance from your character immediately out of the gate, without any time to develop, and I think that's your biggest problem.

 

But I am willing to agree to disagree.

Development is good, progression is good but the jurney should be enjoyable and emersion not o great I finaly got this powers!! O crap can't realy use it much because it's so endurance intensive it drains my bar so damn fast and it comes back so damn slow I'm better just using the same 3-4 attacks i had from the early levels because, well it just feel a lot smother and more enjoyable accept for the disappointment of having waited to get this top powers just having them take space on my action bar.

 

But wait!! I hear that eventually when I get to 50 and farm my ars off and some say I can afford the right enhancement sets than it will feel better and it will be almost good unless you well want to use this top 3-4 powers in rotation without some fillers that you don't really want to use because we'll in this case it still won't feel like a superhero but we'll almost.

 

Sorry. The jurney in many cases is the meat&potatoes of the game and even it if isn't or it isn't for all, it defenitly is for many and right know power sets like Axe, Soldier Spider and I'm sure several others are just trash when it comes to feeling progressively good even with SOs.

[baster]

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You want to talk about immersion? When characters in the comics develop new, more powerful abilities, they don't spam those new, more powerful abilities. Because it is too tiring or dangerous for them to do so. And the more those characters have to use their new, more powerful abilities, the more downtime they need to recover from using them. Then they master those abilities and start using them more regularly. Just like how in the game, those new, more powerful abilities our characters get tend to have higher endurance costs, and so we need to spend time adding slots to them and then slotting enhancements into those powers to use them effectively.

Yes sir. Progression is good, plenty progression to be had making attacks hit garder, making them more accurate or slowing them with secondary effects etc.. etc.. there however should not be mechanics other the cool downs or countet effects emitted by enemies preventing or limiting your basic use of these abilities and especially nothing as boring and silly as lack of basic endurance to use them. That is outdated, broken, boring game design and needs to be addresses. 

 

Or leave it as is. Pretend it'd OK because few thousand people got used to it or are tolerating it and keep the game in dark ages and watch it whine down and die this time for good over the next few years most likly.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, baster said:

Sorry. The jurney in many cases is the meat&potatoes of the game and even it if isn't or it isn't for all, it defenitly is for many and right know power sets like Axe, Soldier Spider and I'm sure several others are just trash when it comes to feeling progressively good even with SOs.

I currently have a Soldier of Arachnos on the Crab Spider branch. (Eventually I'm going to bring back my Bane Spider branch Soldier of Arachnos too.) I also have a Widow of Arachnos. And with some enhancements, never had a problem with endurance. I love those characters. They are great fun to play. The Crab Spider is level 50, but the Night Widow is only level 34. And neither has any mentionable downtime. Maybe instead of calling for endurance to effectively go away and only new players to respond, you actually listen to a few vets and let us help you.

[Riverdusk]

17 hours ago, MTeague said:

 

Certain support sets are very very good at plugging the endurance bar.  Electrical Affinity and Radiation Emission immediately jump to mind for the early game, and Kinetics and Empathy are great for mid-game and onward. 

 

Immediately thought of this point.  Making endurance a 'non-issue' would also call for a need to redo several support powers out there that have +endurance or +recovery in them.  It'd have huge game wide ramifications and balancing issues.  

 

I'm all for soloing and spend the majority of my time doing so, but there should be a bit of a struggle or cost to be self sufficient.   Typically that cost is using the IO enhancement system and/or temp powers.  At high level of course there is also incarnates, but even at lower levels there are a LOT of endurance solutions out there really.   

 

People have mentioned the START buffs/powers (amps and recovery serum).  Also don't forget the SG buff table has a very nice +recovery buff that only costs 3 fairly cheap pieces of salvage and lasts for 90 minutes at a time.  That is one I pretty much always have going when I'm leveling a character.  Pretty sure usually you can use anyone's SG buff table, you don't even have to belong, or of course create a solo base that is free.

 

Anyway, slight tweaks to certain powersets is fine (axe is a thirsty one for sure), but calling for the entire nullification of a big part of the game I'd have to give a big "no".

 

[lemming]

Is it the most fun of the game to look into how to reduce endurance issues? Not really, but there are a lot of ways to compensate.   Mine usually wind up with end reduction SO or IO (at 32+), but if I'm running something with a resistance power, I will two slot Unbreakable Guard for the end reduction.  (several other sets do it as well, but that's my goto at level 17+)

 

There are some powers out there that seem end heavy, but it's never been the end of the world.   If they reduced all end cost, I would probably not even notice it at this point.

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, baster said:

Or leave it as is. Pretend it'd OK because few thousand people got used to it or are tolerating it and keep the game in dark ages and watch it whine down and die this time for good over the next few years most likly.

CoH isnt going to grow if you get your way and it isn’t going to die if you don’t get your way. 
 

HC has made some imo mind meltingly stupid decisions and even THOSE have barely moved the needle. This game will continue because quite simply a lot of people are diehards for it. 
 

Outside of HC straight up quitting theres almost no way it’ll shut down.

 

Also there’s four ways to solve end even before teaming and quite a few have been said already but to add:

 

-Ageless

-Carry blues

-Slot quintessential +End and recov IOs

-Survival amps.