Ship of Heroes

[dukedukes]

18 hours ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

 

As amusing as Consultant (the lead SoH developer), blaming Homecoming for orchestrating a review bombing of Ship of Heroes "out of fear" last night was, that's not at all what happened.  It was mostly the MMORPG sub-Reddit.  Some people like watching the world burn, and once drama over the game price (and then especially when Integral insinuated that the people complaining about the price were poor), reached the MMORPG sub-Reddit, a bunch of people there decided to pour gasoline on it and flood the Steam forums and wherever else they could out of amusement.

 

HC is the enemy they've invented in their own mind. The real "enemy" for them is the general public at large, they're just too slow to adapt and understand their product is not as good as they think it is.

 

As a member of the HC enemy faction I would have purchased SoH if the price was not so ridiculous. I would be willing to take the hit to explore what they've managed to accomplish in terms of game mechanics, but at this point it's looking to be not worth my time or money.

[Voltor]

Well at least it isn't vaporware like City of Titans and Valiance Online

 

But what I have seen does not inspire me.  

[PeregrineFalcon]

3 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

I mean, we could have some fun with this. I even have my incognito Steam forum avatar at the ready.

That's perfect!

 

They'll never realize that it's you. 😁

[Kyksie]

The game is being torn apart on Steam and Reddit, I have only this to add:

 

 

 

 

....yeah. The tanker taunt aura is named "Chew Toy" and the description is "You are a chew toy for your enemies". This is clearly a placeholder that got left in, So in addition to the bugs and balance issues there were no polishing passes either. This is insane.

[Skyhawke]

Invulnerability:  A defensive powerset centered around Invulnerability. 

 

I mean, you can't call false advertising on that one. 😄

[PeregrineFalcon]

I have to say that I'm a little disappointed by the reception to this game. The anger that some people are showing, on Reddit and Steam, seems to center entirely around the price. People appear to be using that as an excuse to attack the game, and demonize the developers. And while that's typical of internet people, it just seems odd when the game, as delivered, is exactly what the devs said it would be.

 

It's an MMO launched by a tiny indie team on a shoe string budget. That was always known. So I'm not sure what people expected.

[Ghost]

35 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I have to say that I'm a little disappointed by the reception to this game. The anger that some people are showing, on Reddit and Steam, seems to center entirely around the price. People appear to be using that as an excuse to attack the game, and demonize the developers. And while that's typical of internet people, it just seems odd when the game, as delivered, is exactly what the devs said it would be.

 

It's an MMO launched by a tiny indie team on a shoe string budget. That was always known. So I'm not sure what people expected.

I think part of the anger comes from the attitude the devs have had with potential players.

 

Not saying it’s right or wrong, but you treat people poorly, it will come back and bite you in the a$$

[Lines]

Man, this wasn't even on my radar until right now. Absolute shipwreck.

 

I was disappointed and sad for the devs for a bit. Then I looked around, followed the breadcrumbs a little. It looks to me like a failure to empathise at all with potential players, both in design decisions and in the way they conduct themselves. There are fundamental lessons to be learned here.

[Lunar Ronin]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I have to say that I'm a little disappointed by the reception to this game. The anger that some people are showing, on Reddit and Steam, seems to center entirely around the price. People appear to be using that as an excuse to attack the game, and demonize the developers. And while that's typical of internet people, it just seems odd when the game, as delivered, is exactly what the devs said it would be.

 

It's an MMO launched by a tiny indie team on a shoe string budget. That was always known. So I'm not sure what people expected.

 

No one hates MMORPGs more than MMORPG sub-Reddit members.  It's a bit of a meme at this point, but it is also true.

 

$60 box price and a $15 per month subscription is AAA pricing, not indie.  If it was a $30 box price and a $10 per month subscription like Embers Adrift (another indie MMORPG), there would have still been blowback, but not as bad.

 

To top it off, the Heroic Games developers deleted posts and banned people for mild, legitimate criticisms of the game for months, before the price was announced.  Some were indeed trolls deserving of bans.  Maybe even most.  But not all.

 

Once the MMORPG sub-Reddit caught wind of the situation, it was game over.  They didn't know of Ship of Heroes' indie situation, and that it was developed for several years.  Most had never heard of the game before.  They just saw blood, between the pricing, and the banning of people. They automatically assumed that the developers were "greedy" and that the game was a "scam."

 

All in all, it was a combination of developers out of touch with modern gamers and the modern video game market, their being too defensive and seeing all criticism as just "haters" and "trolls," and a whole lot of jerks sensing blood that they could feed off of for entertainment.

 

It's a danged shame.

[Troo]

 

Bad games/products are worked on and released all the time.

 

Delusion is common.

 

Games have to nail so much; look & feel, controls, sound, balance of challenge/reward on top of story & immersion being captivating and fun. The odds of getting it right are not high.

Choosing to jump into a niche with comparable offerings can be dangerous versus creating something unique.

 

 

While not interested in Ship of Heroes since early on, that team may have been better served leaning heavily into "a tiny indie team on a shoe string budget" and lowering expectations.

 

 

Anthem - Great example of nailing almost everything but badly missing on just a couple basic aspects. 

 

Not rare:

Judging from the long development cycle and the emphasis on the game being AAA, _____ likely invested over $200 million in the project - money they obviously can’t recoup. While _____ has improved the game since its launch, there is often no second chance to make a good first impression in the video game industry.

 

[legendaryjman]

Turns out making an MMO is hard. If CoH didnt exist Ship of Heroes might be something, but it does so SoH isn't necessary any more.

 

Also their reactions makes one appreciate the professionalism of the original CoH dev team. Castle, Statesman and Positron and to deal with just as much vitriol yet they kept on working. No one got banned because they had a negative opinion. 

[Skyhawke]

I don't do reddit so I can't speak to how the people there behave, but the ones on Steam that left bad reviews actually paid for that mess and were rightfully pissed. Add in the SOH devs being absolute tools in how they've handled everything and it was asking for trouble. Again, it's a shame because more options are always better, but daaaaaaaamn this one just tripped out the starting gate and faceplanted. CIty of Titans doesn't spark much hope either. I haven't looked into Valiance, so can't speak to that. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Skyhawke
spelling is hard...

[madicen]

3 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I have to say that I'm a little disappointed by the reception to this game. The anger that some people are showing, on Reddit and Steam, seems to center entirely around the price. People appear to be using that as an excuse to attack the game, and demonize the developers. And while that's typical of internet people, it just seems odd when the game, as delivered, is exactly what the devs said it would be.

 

It's an MMO launched by a tiny indie team on a shoe string budget. That was always known. So I'm not sure what people expected.

No, for me at least, the ridiculous pricing was the rotten cherry on top of the poop sundae. Personally, to me, it looks feels and plays like a trash bin Unity asset flip of a game.

 

Look for some people and some games thats OK, that's what you're looking for. If they had come out and said "this is not going to be a AAA MMO with all the latest and greatest, what it is is a labor of love/spiritual successor to CoH but we're a small shop ect". What they came out and said is this is the "first real mmo in over a decade". To insult your target audience like that is unforgiveable, to treat us like complete idiots who dont know anything about games. To tell us we're poor if we cant afford $60 for a game that looks and plays like Second Life. 

 

I have more indie $20 games in my Steam library than I will ever had time to play honestly. I will throw down on a game made by a small shop that does not treat their customers like idiots more often than not. Some of my favorite games from the last couple of years, games I have hundreds of hours in were made by one or two people and have Minecraft level graphics. Just in the last few years we've seen HUGE indie hits like Schedule 1 (one dev) and Valheim (five devs) break out into massive success at the $20 price point. In both of these cases one of my friend group saw it said "hmm, this looks interesting for $20" and next thing you know we're all playing it for the next couple of months....all the while saying "wow, this is AMAZING for such a small shop and only $20". The conversation around SoH though is the complete opposite...."wow, this looks like crap for $60. what are they thinking". My friend group that I game with are the same people that I played CoH with 20 years ago...WE are the target audience. 

 

Even with all the negative noise if your game is decent people will try it. Steam lets you refund if less than 2 hours time played, we all know that. SoH currently has 16 people playing. People are voting with their wallet and they have decided this is not the game to spend $60 on. Now if they come to their senses and price it appropriately then maybe they can get some people to give it a try, but I wouldn't hold my breath. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 hours ago, legendaryjman said:

No one got banned because they had a negative opinion. 

I'm sorry, but were you on the same City of Heroes retail forums that I was?

 

Because a ton of folks DID get banned for having a negative opinion. Many times.

 

3 hours ago, Ghost said:

I think part of the anger comes from the attitude the devs have had with potential players.

Yeah, the post that I saw that got people angry didn't seem to have an attitude to me. The person complained about the price and the dev responded with "We understand your financial constraints and respect them." That's attitude?

 

2 hours ago, Lines said:

Absolute shipwreck.

Yeah, unfortunately I think you're right.

 

EDIT:

2 minutes ago, madicen said:

If they had come out and said "this is not going to be a AAA MMO with all the latest and greatest, what it is is a labor of love/spiritual successor to CoH but we're a small shop ect". What they came out and said is this is the "first real mmo in over a decade". To insult your target audience like that is unforgiveable, to treat us like complete idiots who dont know anything about games. To tell us we're poor if we cant afford $60 for a game that looks and plays like Second Life.

They did say "this is not going to be a AAA MMO, we're a tiny team with a shoe string budget" They've been saying for years.

 

And I never saw them insult their audience/customers. I feel like either a bunch of shit's being made up or I really missed something big that happened while I was at work.

Edited 3 hours ago by PeregrineFalcon
Added another thought.

[madicen]

5 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'm sorry, but were you on the same City of Heroes retail forums that I was?

 

Because a ton of folks DID get banned for having a negative opinion. Many times.

 

Yeah, the post that I saw that got people angry didn't seem to have an attitude to me. The person complained about the price and the dev responded with "We understand your financial constraints and respect them." That's attitude?

 

Yeah, unfortunately I think you're right.

 

EDIT:

They did say "this is not going to be a AAA MMO, we're a tiny team with a shoe string budget" They've been saying for years.

 

And I never saw them insult their audience/customers. I feel like either a bunch of shit's being made up or I really missed something big that happened while I was at work.

 

You didn't see it since they went scorched earth and deleted threads and banned people. It so bad that PC Gamer mentioned it in their article today, specifically calling out SOH7. As to the tune they have been singing, it changed when they told us they were the first "real" mmo with such amazing tech no one else could pull off and then priced it like they were EA. The sticked post is still up, comments are locked of course, but it's right there if you want to be told what a "real mmo" is.  Telling us we're poor if we dont want to pay $60 for it, that's an insult. Shutting down uncomfortable conversations, sweeping negativity under the rug is insulting. Everything about how they have handled it has been insulting. 

 

 

 

[Skyhawke]

Yeah, the SOH devs/pr team were sincerely shit talking on the Steam forums. As @madicen said, a lot was locked and deleted, especially after they became the laughing stock of game websites. A small indie company they may be, but innocent in all this? Bhahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa! No. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

Oh yeah, I missed all of that. Yikes!

 

Well, I'm still hoping that they're able to keep the game running. It can only get better, right? Right?

[Troo]

5 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

right? Right?

 

Negative, Ghost Rider. That pattern may be closed.

 

[wednesdaywoe]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Oh yeah, I missed all of that. Yikes!

 

Well, I'm still hoping that they're able to keep the game running. It can only get better, right? Right?

Doubtful, from what I've seen  I guess the purchase gets you 2 years of updates, but I wonder what can be expected from a developer who appears to have Neil Breen syndrome. My biggest hang-up is that the game is garish to look at it, lacks art direction... I can't pay 60 bucks for a game that hurts my eyes. Decent textures are readily available to even the tiniest indie game devs. But this dev seems confident that SoH has "great graphics" and are definitely not placeholder, which is what I assumed when I first saw gameplay tests.

[Skyhawke]

This game won't see two years. If this game makes it to 2026, I'll be shocked. Server costs alone will kill it unless Heroic Games funds that itself at a loss in the hopes of picking up more subs. Which just puts them further in the hole.