AE farms

[Without_Pause]

Farmers are gonna farm.

 

Lets be honest. Their impact on you will be:

• None as they or you solo.
   
  
• None as they are farming or in AE in general and you aren't.
   
  
• On your team helping you complete content faster since they have more pimped out builds.
   
  
• On your team not knowing how to play a build but not really impacting the team's performance is a real negative way.
   
  
• On your team not knowing how to play a build to the point of having a negative impact.
   
  
• Fighting you in PvP, and well, I don't recall PvP having rules about budgets.
  

 

You forgot one:

• In global sending you influence or enhancers because a couple million influence is nothing to them.

 

Damn it those scoundrels.

[Sniktch]

Except it is 100% without a doubt effecting everyone.  It's already been confirmed that the AE missions use up FAAARR more resources then normal missions to the point that 1 AE mission might use the same resources as 20-25 normal missions. 

 

That is the reason the homecoming devs are against it, it LITERALLY kills the servers.

 

Simple fix for the devs; Make the rewards the same as normal missions. I never noticed I got more for doing AEs, but that's probably just me not noticing it. :/

 

...way to read the thread. 

 

AE is currently 50% LESS XP than live.  The thrust of the thread has been people gnashing teeth over this, versus people explaining repeatedly that the max-efficiency farm can LITERALLY use up an entire core on the server for ONE INSTANCE.  To clarify, if 224 people do the max-efficiency farm, NOBODY ELSE WOULD HAVE ANY SERVER SPACE LEFT.  #225 tries to do it?  Server CRASHES.  Why?  Because the processing needs of active AIs do not follow a linear curve, they follow a geometric curve, and the max-efficiency style farms use A LOT of active AIs at once.  Especially when they're trying to all go to a single spot on the map and all trying to aggro on a single entity despite the aggro cap.

 

So no, AE isn't getting set back to normal XP, unless ambushes and patrols get taken away from AE toolkit, which may not be possible for the Homecoming team, and if it was, then the response from the farming segment of the community would be howls for pitchforks, torches, and blood.

[brian9824]

Except it is 100% without a doubt effecting everyone.  It's already been confirmed that the AE missions use up FAAARR more resources then normal missions to the point that 1 AE mission might use the same resources as 20-25 normal missions. 

 

That is the reason the homecoming devs are against it, it LITERALLY kills the servers.

 

Simple fix for the devs; Make the rewards the same as normal missions. I never noticed I got more for doing AEs, but that's probably just me not noticing it. :/

 

That would be a horrible fix.  The problem with AE farms is you can build them with a weak custom made mob, make the map all bosses, and make them have a NPC that follows and buffs you and other crazy stuff.  That makes AE farms able to be farmed far easier then any other map. 

 

[jubakumbi]

The problem with AE farms is you can build them with a weak custom made mob, make the map all bosses, and make them have a NPC that follows and buffs you and other crazy stuff.  That makes AE farms able to be farmed far easier then any other map.

 

Nope.

 

The only problem is that AE takes up more resources for the same number of mapserver instances, because most player-made content turns on morre AI and the cores get over-used as compared to 'normal' missions.

 

That's it.

 

Anything else is moral judgement against what some people see as Evil Powerleveling.

 

The only problem is physical/virtual resources.

[brian9824]

The problem with AE farms is you can build them with a weak custom made mob, make the map all bosses, and make them have a NPC that follows and buffs you and other crazy stuff.  That makes AE farms able to be farmed far easier then any other map.

 

Nope.

 

The only problem is that AE takes up more resources for the same number of mapserver instances, because most player-made content turns on morre AI and the cores get over-used as compared to 'normal' missions.

 

That's it.

 

Anything else is moral judgement against what some people see as Evil Powerleveling.

 

The only problem is physical/virtual resources.

 

Umm yes I know that as I was responding to his quote where I said exactly that.

 

I was explaining why the dev's lowered the xp to discourage it because they don't want it farmed for those reasons......

[jubakumbi]

The problem with AE farms is you can build them with a weak custom made mob, make the map all bosses, and make them have a NPC that follows and buffs you and other crazy stuff.  That makes AE farms able to be farmed far easier then any other map.

 

Nope.

 

The only problem is that AE takes up more resources for the same number of mapserver instances, because most player-made content turns on morre AI and the cores get over-used as compared to 'normal' missions.

 

That's it.

 

Anything else is moral judgement against what some people see as Evil Powerleveling.

 

The only problem is physical/virtual resources.

 

Umm yes I know that as I was responding to his quote where I said exactly that.

 

I was explaining why the dev's lowered the xp to discourage it because they don't want it farmed for those reasons......

 

Fair enough.

[Piledriver]

 

That would be a horrible fix.  The problem with AE farms is you can build them with a weak custom made mob, make the map all bosses, and make them have a NPC that follows and buffs you and other crazy stuff.  That makes AE farms able to be farmed far easier then any other map.

 

Way back on live the rewards table for AE missions put a severe decrease on rewards for spawns that lacked any of the three lower classifications (minion, lieutenant, and boss). This was done to discourage what was a popular lowbie farm type in which a large map like a city map or the troll cave would be filled with spawns of just one AV or EB. Since these farms were usually locked at a low level, players would gang up on the enemies one at a time and try not to aggro more than two or three. It was actually some good mindless fun for a bunch of low-level characters, with the occasional bit of excitement from accidental aggro. Too bad it got fixed.

 

You can still use solo spawns or other configurations for storytelling reasons, but it will not be worthwhile for the rewards.

 

As well, mobs that cannot hit you at range or do poor damage will not give full rewards. There is a very low cap if you try that.

 

I think you are probably ignorant of the popular farm maps in normal game content, also. They're set up on big open maps with demon or freakshow spawns waiting around to be mowed just as you describe. People could multibox some support in, but that would just slow down any proper farmer. If I were to multibox farm, I'd make multiple scrappers with leadership pool powers giving them tank-level defense and maxing their DPS. Or maybe Arachnos, since they can double that effect. Then I'd go into a demon farm and use the whole team as one to herd like before the aggro cap.

 

No AE needed. AI spiking like mad just the same.

 

 

[brian9824]

 

That would be a horrible fix.  The problem with AE farms is you can build them with a weak custom made mob, make the map all bosses, and make them have a NPC that follows and buffs you and other crazy stuff.  That makes AE farms able to be farmed far easier then any other map.

 

Way back on live the rewards table for AE missions put a severe decrease on rewards for spawns that lacked any of the three lower classifications (minion, lieutenant, and boss). This was done to discourage what was a popular lowbie farm type in which a large map like a city map or the troll cave would be filled with spawns of just one AV or EB. Since these farms were usually locked at a low level, layers would gang up on the enemies one at a time and try not to aggro more than two or three. It was actually some good mindless fun for a bunch of low-level characters, with the occasional bit of excitement from accidental aggro. Too bad it got fixed.

 

You can still use solo spawns or other configurations for storytelling reasons, but it will not be worthwhile for the rewards.

 

As well, mods that cannot hit you at range or do poor damage will not give full rewards. There is a very low cap if you try that.

 

I think you are probably ignorant of the popular farm maps in normal game content, also. They're set up on big open maps with spawns waiting around to be mowed just as you describe. People could multibox some support in, but that would just slow down any proper farmer. If I were to multibox farm, I'd make multiple scrappers with leadership pool powers giving them tank-level defense and maxing their DPS. Or maybe Arachnos, since they can double that effect. Then I'd go into a demon farm and use the whole team as one to herd like before the aggro cap.

 

No AE needed. AI spiking like mad just the same.

 

Nope, im quite familiar with the non AE farms, one of the most popular being the good ole werewolf farm that I like to run.  I have absolutely no issue with farming in general and don't mind it.  However AE can/will always be able to be made into the absolute best farming method by a significant factor as the mobs, powers, support, etc can all be customized. 

 

As such there will always be the temptation to use it as such which is bad since its so resource intensive and hurts the general population of the server. 

[pata]

hello, I created 3 AE farm to test

@Mr pata

ID:325

ID:327

ID:324

[brian9824]

hello, I created 3 AE farm to test

@Mr pata

ID:325

ID:327

ID:324

 

To test what, crashing the server?

[Piledriver]

To test what, crashing the server?

 

You've latched on to the angle that AE farms are technically detrimental, but you're only fooling yourself. Things like this betray that you just resent AE for the same domineering reasons all the other nerfherders do, with no real concern whether the content falls into that particular heavy AI workload category.

[scarasyte]

Sounds to me as though the main argument still remains as "some people found a better way to get exp than me so I want it banned because i'm a killjoy"... We all know how slow and sluggish exp is once you reach late 30s. 1 of these all-boss AE farm maps would probably net me a half a level at 40 if I had a double exp boost and patrol exp to burn. I don't see a problem. All I see is salt.

[_NOPE_]

I think we all know the solution to this problem...

 

 

 

[jubakumbi]

HA!

I think the only 'problem' is some people choose to 'look down thier noses' at people that happen to like to hit that button without putting in the 'right' amount of (Protestant Work Ethic Inspired) kung-fu* and those disapprroving individuals then try to lord thier viewpoint over everyone.

 

IMO, the 'problem' is just bullies, busy-bodies, and wanna-be GMs.

IME with CoH, that has never changed, even after sunset, just look at the Titan forums and now back here at the number of people that think we are all just 'young greedy gamers that want it all now', with servers pooping up and the servers runner proudly saying they do things the 'right way', not like i25.

 

I am 51.

Frankly, I 'work/have worked' plenty.

I like to kill pixels with pretty heroes, who are you to tell me what I like is wrong?

 

Telling peopple they have to 'earn' pixels in a video game thorugh 'work' is absurd.

Telling people they are having fun wrong? Evil, from my PoV.

 

*really just means time and energy.

 

I think we all know the solution to this problem...

 

 

 

 

[GamerKate]

They’re beefing The MA? How?

 

I don’t care personally about getting xp from it, I love the storyline arcs, plus I write my own. If they remove xp from it i’m Ok with it but it’s a revolutionary part of CoH imo so i’d Hate to see it go.

[Alphabet Soup II]

Farmers are gonna farm.

 

Lets be honest. Their impact on you will be:

• None as they or you solo.
   
  
• None as they are farming or in AE in general and you aren't.
   
  
• On your team helping you complete content faster since they have more pimped out builds.
   
  
• On your team not knowing how to play a build but not really impacting the team's performance is a real negative way.
   
  
• On your team not knowing how to play a build to the point of having a negative impact.
   
  
• Fighting you in PvP, and well, I don't recall PvP having rules about budgets.
  

 

You forgot one:

• In global sending you influence or enhancers because a couple million influence is nothing to them.

 

Damn it those scoundrels.

 

I mean I farm and would hate to see farming taken away but if we are being honest there is another way in which farmers negatively effect other players. Farmers generate much more INF than the average player and do so far faster. This creates wealth disparity and increases the rise of inflation of the in game economy. Wealth disparity will always exist as people's play times and effort levels differ but farming exacerbates it. Inflation too will always exist unless there are major changes to money sinks in the game because the game is constantly creating more INF than it is taking out of the system, but once again farming exacerbates it. As both wealth disparity and inflation increase and develop over time the accessibility of high end loot on the auction house will become narrower and narrower. This was clearly demonstrated on live where there were pieces that reached the heights of a billion inf on the marketplace, a sum no avg player could amass through normal gameplay and had to rely on lucking into good enough drops to sell. That said this i25 version of the game has more mechanisms to counteract that than the game did when it was live because of the changes they made for a lower server population, namely the increased accessibility of enhancement converters. With 30 converters for 10 merits you have a very strong tool for a relatively cheap price/time investment at getting the loot you want. That said once more and more of the game's population really understand how to use converters to their favor the auction house will look much different than it does today and I suspect desirable loot prices will drop relative to the state of inflation but undesirable loot prices will rise relative to the state of inflation. Currently it's still very easy to amass wealth simply by buying cheap undesirable rares converting them into more expensive desirable rares and making an easy and hefty profit. I have bins of Miracle procs, LotG +rech, and others in my base because all it takes is to buy a stack of cheap 10kish rare on the market and start converting. Anyways this is all just to say that much like in the real world the rich really aren't your friends and I guarantee the occasional handout of goods farmers and such like myself might give out of "generosity"(Is giving out 10mil really that generous when you have over 1B in assets? less than 1% of net worth) does not offset the impact they have otherwise.

 

[_NOPE_]

I mean I farm and would hate to see farming taken away but if we are being honest there is another way in which farmers negatively effect other players. Farmers generate much more INF than the average player and do so far faster. This creates wealth disparity and increases the rise of inflation of the in game economy. Wealth disparity will always exist as people's play times and effort levels differ but farming exacerbates it. Inflation too will always exist unless there are major changes to money sinks in the game because the game is constantly creating more INF than it is taking out of the system, but once again farming exacerbates it. As both wealth disparity and inflation increase and develop over time the accessibility of high end loot on the auction house will become narrower and narrower. This was clearly demonstrated on live where there were pieces that reached the heights of a billion inf on the marketplace, a sum no avg player could amass through normal gameplay and had to rely on lucking into good enough drops to sell. That said this i25 version of the game has more mechanisms to counteract that than the game did when it was live because of the changes they made for a lower server population, namely the increased accessibility of enhancement converters. With 30 converters for 10 merits you have a very strong tool for a relatively cheap price/time investment at getting the loot you want. That said once more and more of the game's population really understand how to use converters to their favor the auction house will look much different than it does today and I suspect desirable loot prices will drop relative to the state of inflation but undesirable loot prices will rise relative to the state of inflation. Currently it's still very easy to amass wealth simply by buying cheap undesirable rares converting them into more expensive desirable rares and making an easy and hefty profit. I have bins of Miracle procs, LotG +rech, and others in my base because all it takes is to buy a stack of cheap 10kish rare on the market and start converting. Anyways this is all just to say that much like in the real world the rich really aren't your friends and I guarantee the occasional handout of goods farmers and such like myself might give out of "generosity"(Is giving out 10mil really that generous when you have over 1B in assets? less than 1% of net worth) does not offset the impact they have otherwise.

 

[scarasyte]

IMO, the 'problem' is just bullies, busy-bodies, and wanna-be GMs.

IME with CoH, that has never changed, even after sunset, just look at the Titan forums and now back here at the number of people that think we are all just 'young greedy gamers that want it all now', with servers pooping up and the servers runner proudly saying they do things the 'right way', not like i25.

 

I agree. Most of us who played during the original run are older now and have less time to grind. Teenagers have plenty of time after school. But once you got a family, especially a wife, that time slips away. If I can gain a half a level a night in AE within 2 hours, I'm satisfied. It's better than running all over founders falls doing radio missions over and over.

[MunkiLord]

 

Honestly, I'm tired enough of the arguments I say just slap an "I win" button in the P2W vendors, but the cost is you forever after have a GenericHero/Villain# name and costume.

 

/jranger

[MunkiLord]

I mean I farm and would hate to see farming taken away but if we are being honest there is another way in which farmers negatively effect other players. Farmers generate much more INF than the average player and do so far faster. This creates wealth disparity and increases the rise of inflation of the in game economy. Wealth disparity will always exist as people's play times and effort levels differ but farming exacerbates it. Inflation too will always exist unless there are major changes to money sinks in the game because the game is constantly creating more INF than it is taking out of the system, but once again farming exacerbates it. As both wealth disparity and inflation increase and develop over time the accessibility of high end loot on the auction house will become narrower and narrower. This was clearly demonstrated on live where there were pieces that reached the heights of a billion inf on the marketplace, a sum no avg player could amass through normal gameplay and had to rely on lucking into good enough drops to sell.

 

Nah, you're just wrong. High prices were due to lack of supply(as the currently seeded invention salvage demonstrates). Additionally farmers add to the supply more than casual players and they also spend a ton of influence that goes to casual players that got a lucky drop.

[Shinobu]

 

You won't see Panacea +health or Glad Armor +3% defense going for in excess of 2 billion, or anything close to that amount, ever again because every single PvP recipe that drops is potentially one of those IOs with the application of converters, and also because PvP recipes are dropping from regular content instead of just PvP zones.

 

I agree with MunkiLord -- farmers generate more stuff to sell and also spend a lot of the influence they generate.  Some of the other things you said about inflation may be true -- but it's not nearly as dire as you portray it.

 

 

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Plus as in real life the real money is made trading on the market rather than farming anyway.

[Solarverse]

I take it they mean in the sense of how you might "fix" your pet. ;)

 

Quite a few people hate AE with a passion. These are not the people who should have a say in how the feature is managed, because they do not and will not use it.

 

Unless they're running their own server for like-minded people only, of course. :)

 

Quite a lot of people hated the unlimited aggro nerf as well. Even though they not once were forced to partake in any teams who played this way, they still hated it and demanded a change. Guess what, we don't have the unlimited aggro anymore.

 

Disclosure: I hated the herding mentality as well. When I played a Tank in those days, I limited my aggro gathering to 3, 4 mobs tops. I didn't herd entire maps unless I was strictly with Super Group mates. I hated Power Leveling with a passion because it makes bad players.

 

Now we are restricted to 17 max aggro, and now we have NPCs who stand around and act oblivious to your presence if more than two mobs are within range. So in my opinion, we went from one extreme to the next.

 

I would like to say, I dislike AE as well. Hate everything about it, and when it was first suggested as an idea, I called it for what it was, a farming frenzy. Now we have it, now it is. However, I don't try and rain on people's parade. If I run in to bad level 50 players, I simpl;y remove them from the team if they are unwilling to listen to reason. Just because people will power level noobs to 50, doesn't mean I have to play with them. However, it also doesn't mean I have to come to these boards and cry for a nerf either. I have options, I use those options.

 

People love to feel in control. This is human nature. People also love controlling how others play the game. This is why we no longer have unlimited taunting/aggro.

 

I know the Devs said that it was breaking the game, so be it. However, taking it down to 17 enemies was a bit silly IMO. It felt more like a punishment than a "fix" to me. I do not wish to punish those who love farming and power leveling. Just if they are going to play that way, they had better be willing to listen to other players who know how to play the game and understand the mechanics when on teams, otherwise they will find themselves playing a very lonely game.

[Alphabet Soup II]

I mean I farm and would hate to see farming taken away but if we are being honest there is another way in which farmers negatively effect other players. Farmers generate much more INF than the average player and do so far faster. This creates wealth disparity and increases the rise of inflation of the in game economy. Wealth disparity will always exist as people's play times and effort levels differ but farming exacerbates it. Inflation too will always exist unless there are major changes to money sinks in the game because the game is constantly creating more INF than it is taking out of the system, but once again farming exacerbates it. As both wealth disparity and inflation increase and develop over time the accessibility of high end loot on the auction house will become narrower and narrower. This was clearly demonstrated on live where there were pieces that reached the heights of a billion inf on the marketplace, a sum no avg player could amass through normal gameplay and had to rely on lucking into good enough drops to sell.

 

Nah, you're just wrong. High prices were due to lack of supply(as the currently seeded invention salvage demonstrates). Additionally farmers add to the supply more than casual players and they also spend a ton of influence that goes to casual players that got a lucky drop.

 

Well the invention salvage currently is different because that is a partially controlled economy to a certain extent as the GMs have price capped those items with essentially endless supply at fixed prices. That's not to say your point about lack of supply is moot, you are certainly right the lack of supply played a big role as well although if we are being honest a lot of that lack of supply was due to traders buying up supply and slowing releasing it to market. I know this because I actively participated in it.

 

That said as someone who played live for many years the prices were not solely effected by supply, inflation was also a big part. I remember when cresting the 1B inf mark was an accomplishment of the richest class on live and I remember years later when the game shutdown I burned something like 200B on SG prestige because it didn't matter anymore and I certainly know people who had far larger sums of inf than me and plenty others I'm quite sure who I didn't know that did. That increase in what was considered a lot of INF was due to inflation, and that inflation effected market prices. Purples didn't just start to become more rare all of a sudden they were always rare, but more and more INF got added to the economy each day the game existed.

 

I think it's totally fair to bring up that farmers while accelerating inflation also feed the supply pool and feeding the supply pool is helpful to the general public. However it still grants increased wealth disparity and wealth conveys power in the economy/marketplace. Maybe most of these farmers quickly sell off goods and don't use their funds and goods to play the market in any way to their advantage, I can't really say. I know I exploit my advantage on the market, as Adeon pointed out the real INF is to be made in trading.

[jubakumbi]

I know the Devs said that it was breaking the game, so be it. However, taking it down to 17 enemies was a bit silly IMO. It felt more like a punishment than a "fix" to me. I do not wish to punish those who love farming and power leveling. Just if they are going to play that way, they had better be willing to listen to other players who know how to play the game and understand the mechanics when on teams, otherwise they will find themselves playing a very lonely game.

 

I remain convinced that there were plenty of 'you will have fun our way' people running the live game.

Did these thing intersect with performance and other things?

Sure.

 

Does not mean, as the example noted suggests, there was not also a large dosage of 'play our way' involved.

 

Humans are human.