Ninjas

[Ultimo]

So, I've been leveling a Ninjas Mastermind for the first time, and I'm finding the experience... underwelming.  I paired them with Kinetics, since the Kin heal is best with melee pets.

 

What I'm finding is that they're really squishy, dying in the time it takes my heal to recharge.  They also don't act like Ninjas, and neither does the Mastermind.  I know other MM pets got slight revamps recently (Mercs are awesome now), so I think Ninjas could use a bit of love too.

 

Some ideas:

For the Mastermind himself... perhaps something other than just a bow?  Perhaps have one bow attack, one sword attack, one blinding powder?

For the Ninjas... they should ALL have the capacity to be invisible.  The Oni could turn into wisps of smoke, perhaps?

The Ninjas need to do more damage if they're going to be so squishy.

One thing that seems common with Ninjas in the comics (eg. Wolverine, Daredevil, etc.), they tend to use attacks and things that bind or hamper their enemy.  Wolverine is constantly filled with arrows on ropes and the like.  They also seem to be really NUMEROUS.  Perhaps there should be something like Gang War for the Ninjas?

 

In any case, I think that Ninjas could use some love.  What do you all think?  What would you do to improve them?  Not just performance, but presentation?

[Force Redux]

Ninjas already got a rework and are in a good place right now. I just don't think Kinetics is a good match for them. 

[Erratic1]

Now I am wondering how Ninja/Marine would be. Darn it!

[evetsleep]

Ninja's are ok on damage honestly and kinetics just won't do a good job keeping the cardboard dragons alive.  They do far better with a secondary that can reinforce their defenses.  I personally like time, trick arrow, dark, and traps.  Honorable mention for marine since that gem goes with everything.

[Black_Assassin]

Yeah, but ninjas on meth is funny. I like my ninja/kin because warp speed ninjas at the damage cap is hilarious, I just have to keep it to +0 or +1 for them to survive. If they removed the level discrepancies found in the the pets, I would love my ninja/kin even more. 

[evetsleep]

44 minutes ago, Black_Assassin said:

Yeah, but ninjas on meth is funny. I like my ninja/kin because warp speed ninjas at the damage cap is hilarious, I just have to keep it to +0 or +1 for them to survive. If they removed the level discrepancies found in the the pets, I would love my ninja/kin even more. 

If you want to see funny, run zombie/kin (I have one named Crack Zombie).  Zombies on speed boost is ridiculous and their resistance and debuffs keep them reasonably alive.

[Dixa]

ninja fine. great even. kin is the problem

 

your secondary is more important than your primary for mm and if you really want to feel powerful marine can't be beat right now. 

[kelika2]

nin/cold

nin/dark

nin/ta

your secondary needs +def or -tohit

you can try nin/ff if you want but you will be way over defense later on

dont try radiation because the toggles have a small radius

[TygerDarkstorm]

On 8/3/2025 at 1:01 AM, Force Redux said:

Ninjas already got a rework and are in a good place right now. I just don't think Kinetics is a good match for them. 

This--ninjas already got a rework which put them in a really good place and are actually more durable than they used to be. You also need to make sure you take a personal attack (at least one, but up to all 3 if you have room in your build) as this gives the ninjas a boost (I believe it's a higher chance to crit, but it's been a bit since I've played a ninja MM).

 

As others have already mentioned, planning your secondary is fairly important for MMs, and others have already made some great suggestions for secondaries to pair with ninjas. I had someone help me out with my ninjas/cold MM by giving me one of the KD procs (can't remember if it's overwhelming force or sudden acceleration)--you slot it in the genin and this helps them knock foes on their asses and keeps them a little safer while defeating mobs. 

 

This post makes me want to go work on my Ninja/Nature MM lol.

[Caadium]

8 hours ago, kelika2 said:

nin/cold

nin/dark

nin/ta

your secondary needs +def or -tohit

you can try nin/ff if you want but you will be way over defense later on

dont try radiation because the toggles have a small radius

It only has one -tohit in it, but I found the +Res and -Res of Sonic also worked. I have not tried it, but on the +resist front, Thermal might be interesting.

 

7 hours ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

This--ninjas already got a rework which put them in a really good place and are actually more durable than they used to be. You also need to make sure you take a personal attack (at least one, but up to all 3 if you have room in your build) as this gives the ninjas a boost (I believe it's a higher chance to crit, but it's been a bit since I've played a ninja MM).

Ninja MM attacks give the pets +3% crit chance, each, after they have hit. This bonus lasts for 30 seconds. So, if you keep those in cycle, then you are giving your pets +9% crit chance.

 

This is part of what I would consider on choosing a secondary. Because you want to spend time attacking, you might want to consider less active secondaries.

 

For example, with Sonic (since that is what I'm familiar with), Liquify has a 30 second timer, Clarity 90, 2 toggles, and 2 shields. Easier to mix in some attacks while commanding pets. Plus, Liquify being 30-seconds lets you know when you should re-apply your hit +crits.

 

EDIT:

Another thing to note, Train Ninjas gives them around 20% positional Def if you slot for it. More for AoE. Between this, procs, and Maneuvers you can choose sets that aren't pure +Def to create layered protection for them. Increase Density (slotted for Resist) & Transfusion should create somewhat of a layered protection for /Kin, however it still suffers from minimal debuffing. 

Edited August 7 by Caadium

[simpleperson]

Ninjas are a defense class, rather than a resistance class.   /Kin will do better with resistance type pets.   

 

You'll be happier with anything that adds defense.        Jounin start at 15% def, before you even begin using enhancements (which go on "Train Ninjas" instead of on the actual power itself)                  45% is the "soft cap" where only 1 in 20 attacks from an ordinary enemy can land.     Decent enhancing, plus slotting the 2 +def procs can get you up to 35%, but if your secondary adds anything, that will probably get you over the top to 45%.              Then your pets are nigh indestructible most of the time. 

 

Also Jounin can use "Achilles Heel: Chance for resistance debuff", which will indirectly add to their damage, and that of any party members.   A great compliment to /Kin if you choose to stay with that. 

 

 

I agree, however, that it would be cool if the MM could have a sword.   At present the best I can do is give her a mace.  😞        However I am able to get over it because the ninjas themselves look so cool!!!!! 

 

 

 

[Ultimo]

It would also be helpful if the Fighting Pool had alternate animations, of Martial Arts moves.  It might require tweaking the cast times, but I'd do...

 

Boxing = Storm Kick

Kick = Cobra Punch

Cross Punch = Dragon's Tail

 

It might seem that the Cobra Punch should go on the Boxing punch, and the Storm Kick on the Kick, but the choices I made there were about casting times.  Dragon's Tail is a full radius, but Cross Punch is just a cone.  I wouldn't change the actual effect of any of the powers, they would still function as they already do.  So, Cross Punch, using the Dragon's Tail animation, would still just be a cone.

Edited Sunday at 03:46 AM by Ultimo

[Ultimo]

What about TIME?  Part of the issue is that I want to pick a set that suits the character's backstory.  Briefly, Kozuki Sasuke was a famous ninja of the Meiji era (late 1800s - early 1900s).  He came into conflict with a powerful sorceror, and ended up trapped under Mount Fuji, where he used the sorceror's magic to keep himself alive through the decades.  Freed by the descendants of his followers, he has begun rebuilding his clan, using the sorcerous powers he learned to do so.

 

I originally went with Kinetics, in part because I'd never played it much, and heard about it being awesomeincredibleopnonsense... but I'm just not impressed, and I'm hearing now it's basically just ONE power that is like that.  So, I'm thinking TIME might work conceptually too.  How would the Ninjas fare with a TIME Mastermind?

 

I could also do Storm Summoning, but I've already got several characters that use it... and I find its excessive endurance costs really undercuts the ability to enjoy it.

Nature could work conceptually, but it's all about healing and regeneration, and the Ninjas fold up like origami so fast I likely wouldn't be able to heal them.

I could do Darkness, but again, I have several characters who already have it, and it's not QUITE in character.  It WOULD give all the ninjas a bit of stealth, though, as would Steamy Mist.

 

What do you guys think?

 

[Force Redux]

Time works wonders with everything, including Ninjas. There's an old topic here "It's a Bow Time" done before the ninja rework, that would give pointers, but honestly they'll do just great simply leveling up. 

[simpleperson]

3 hours ago, Ultimo said:

It would also be helpful if the Fighting Pool had alternate animations, of Martial Arts moves.  It might require tweaking the cast times, but I'd do...

 

Boxing = Storm Kick

Kick = Cobra Punch

Cross Punch = Dragon's Tail

 

It might seem that the Cobra Punch should go on the Boxing punch, and the Storm Kick on the Kick, but the choices I made there were about casting times.  Dragon's Tail is a full radius, but Cross Punch is just a cone.  I wouldn't change the actual effect of any of the powers, they would still function as they already do.  So, Cross Punch, using the Dragon's Tail animation, would still just be a cone.

 

Dominator's Martial Assault has a "spinning kick" which is a cone, would probably be a good match to Cross Punch.        That one, and the other two you mentioned have pretty short animation times.    You can always stretch a short animation time into being longer by adding a pause. 

 

 

My present Ninjas MM is Ninjas/Empathy and I skipped Genin.       A lot of the question of survivability comes down to your approach.   I don't always take Genin because they're so death prone, but I can keep the three stronger Henchmen alive if I focus on just them.     However, my MM strategy basically never uses "bodyguard mode".               Ninjas have too few HP to be able to absorb a lot of hits for me. 

 

Instead of bodyguard mode, I just try to draw as little aggro as possible.   The henchmen die instead of me taking hits, and when that happens, I do like any self respecting Mastermind would in the comic books:  I retreat!!!!!!

 

[JediDave]

Ninja/Time would work really well. Time has the strong AoE heal you'll want when an attack or two get past the defenses of your ninjas, and it has a very easy time capping both your defense and the ninjas' defense. You aren't necessarily locked into an epic pool with power boost, but using power boost then hitting Farsight will drastically increase the defense and tohit values that you have. I think you'd get a lot more out of /time than /kin on ninjas. 

[Ultimo]

11 hours ago, JediDave said:

Ninja/Time would work really well. Time has the strong AoE heal you'll want when an attack or two get past the defenses of your ninjas, and it has a very easy time capping both your defense and the ninjas' defense. You aren't necessarily locked into an epic pool with power boost, but using power boost then hitting Farsight will drastically increase the defense and tohit values that you have. I think you'd get a lot more out of /time than /kin on ninjas. 

Time does have a couple of drawbacks.  First, the heal is centered on the character, who is likely to be at a range.  This makes it impossible to heal the ninjas.  The other thing is a lack of any stealth effect.  Both Darkness and Storm have stealth effects, which would be very in keeping with ninjas.  So I'm kind of torn.

 

Time is arguably the best conceptually, but lacks some functionality.

Darkness is good conceptually, and has stealth, but I have so many Darkness characters already, and does lack SOME functionality.

Storm is the worst conceptually but has stealth, and it does have a ranged heal... but that's single target.

 

Kinetics does offer the ranged AREA heal, and it does have powers to boost damage and endurance, which is very good for a Mastermind... but it really does nothing to make the Ninjas more survivable, beyond the heal... which is of limited use because the ninjas are so squishy.  Which means the Mastermind is kind of stuck trying to fight without the pets, because they're dead before they can do much.

 

So I'm torn.

[MTeague]

A  Ninja/Time MM should really get used to hanging out in melee range.

• Your inherent, Supremacy, does nothing if you're too far away from your pets.
• If you use the Pet Aura +Defense or +Resistance IO's, they emanate from YOU, so again, good to be semi-near your pets.
• Even if you don't choose to use IO's, Time's Juncture is a PBAE toggle from you, that inflict -SPD, -DMG, and -ToHit.  Hanging out near your pets with that one helps keep them standing, because any enemy near you is more likely to whiff than connect.
• You benefit from your own Farsight +DEF PBAE buff, and it's a pretty solid buff, so things should mostly miss you anyway.
• If you and your pets are all in melee, you can drop Distortion Field on top of yourself, inflicting -RCHG, -SPD, and holding some % of enemy minion mobs.
• Temporal Mending, PBAE heal/heal-over-time.

If you're hanging out far away from your pets as a /Time MM, you're not leveraging several tools you could use to keep your henchmen alive. 

[smnolimits41]

I was thinking of making a character based on Lady Chiyo from Naruto Shippuden.  She is capable of giving her own life to ressurect fallen allies.  I was thinking this would include Absorb Pain and the Ressurect powers.  The ninjas would be her puppets.  

[JediDave]

10 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Time does have a couple of drawbacks.  First, the heal is centered on the character, who is likely to be at a range.  This makes it impossible to heal the ninjas.  The other thing is a lack of any stealth effect.  Both Darkness and Storm have stealth effects, which would be very in keeping with ninjas.  So I'm kind of torn.

 

 

Your definition of impossible is very different from the actual definition of impossible. You have farsight boosted defense, bodyguard mode, and time's juncture boosting your survivability. There is zero reason for you to not also be in melee range. Bodyguard mode means your ninjas' HP is your HP, and the aoe heal is working double time. 

 

As for invisibility, grant invisibility is a single power pick and a one slot wonder. 

10 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Time is arguably the best conceptually, but lacks some functionality.

Darkness is good conceptually, and has stealth, but I have so many Darkness characters already, and does lack SOME functionality.

Storm is the worst conceptually but has stealth, and it does have a ranged heal... but that's single target.

 

Kinetics does offer the ranged AREA heal, and it does have powers to boost damage and endurance, which is very good for a Mastermind... but it really does nothing to make the Ninjas more survivable, beyond the heal... which is of limited use because the ninjas are so squishy.  Which means the Mastermind is kind of stuck trying to fight without the pets, because they're dead before they can do much.

 

Easy fix

[TygerDarkstorm]

12 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Time does have a couple of drawbacks.  First, the heal is centered on the character, who is likely to be at a range.  This makes it impossible to heal the ninjas.  The other thing is a lack of any stealth effect.  Both Darkness and Storm have stealth effects, which would be very in keeping with ninjas.  So I'm kind of torn.

 

Time is arguably the best conceptually, but lacks some functionality.

Darkness is good conceptually, and has stealth, but I have so many Darkness characters already, and does lack SOME functionality.

Storm is the worst conceptually but has stealth, and it does have a ranged heal... but that's single target.

 

Kinetics does offer the ranged AREA heal, and it does have powers to boost damage and endurance, which is very good for a Mastermind... but it really does nothing to make the Ninjas more survivable, beyond the heal... which is of limited use because the ninjas are so squishy.  Which means the Mastermind is kind of stuck trying to fight without the pets, because they're dead before they can do much.

 

So I'm torn.

I don't quite understand your logic here, and maybe this line of thinking means MM's aren't for you, or you need to create a ranged MM concept. If you're going to play an MM with a melee based primary, then you should also be in melee range, which is also where Time wants to play anyway because of the Time's Juncture debuff. Time is a great secondary for MM's, including Ninjas, and you should be playing in melee range with them.

 

You should also be playing actively and not passively--Ninjas aren't going to play like Bots/FF, you don't just stand there and do nothing while the bots do all the work. You should be giving at least some slots to your personal attacks and using them so you boost your Ninjas' chance to crit. You should also be actively using your secondary to mitigate incoming damage, debuff enemies, and boost your Ninjas. And once high enough level, sprinkling in pool/epic powers as needed.

 

Btw, heals are not strictly needed on an MM. There are a few strong MM secondaries that don't have heals and you either build to be super tanky or you play where you plan to sacrifice your henchmen more and resummon as needed. HC drastically lowered the cooldowns and end costs of needed to resummon and rebuff henchmen. My Demons/Storm MM skipped O2 boost, partly because she's a villain, but also because I just resummon demons as needed--for the most part she causes so much chaos that it's rare the demons even need healing from me.

 

Edit: Also, with the changes HC has made to primaries like ninjas, you should be slotting the upgrade powers. You don't have to give them extra slots if you don't have room in your build, but you should be putting Def/Res in the upgrade powers which will further increase henchman survivability.

Edited 5 hours ago by TygerDarkstorm

[MTeague]

17 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

You should be giving at least some slots to your personal attacks and using them so you boost your Ninjas' chance to crit.

 

Admittedly, my Ninjas/Electric Affinity MM is still in the early-mid-game level-wise, but it's viable to keep Snap Shot / Aimed Shot as one-slot-wonders with just one +Acc in each.  As long as I fire each one off every ~ 10 seconds, the pets retain the +Crit just fine. Whether or not your personal arrows do any meaningful damage can definitely wait until the 30's. 

[TygerDarkstorm]

41 minutes ago, MTeague said:

 

Admittedly, my Ninjas/Electric Affinity MM is still in the early-mid-game level-wise, but it's viable to keep Snap Shot / Aimed Shot as one-slot-wonders with just one +Acc in each.  As long as I fire each one off every ~ 10 seconds, the pets retain the +Crit just fine. Whether or not your personal arrows do any meaningful damage can definitely wait until the 30's. 

Fair, you may never need more than the base slot and an accuracy. I'm not sure if the Ninja personal attacks can be procced.

Edit: I should have phrased it to be taking the personal attacks, slotting an acc IO in them, and using them regularly.

Edited 4 hours ago by TygerDarkstorm