Shieldless “shield defense” (your thoughts?)

[Sakura Tenshi]

Less a suggestion and more just kind of putting out the feelers to see what folks’ thoughts would be. As the title suggests the idea is basically the Shield Defense armor set without the shield object. Why would this be helpful?

 

1. Shield defense is one of only three armor sets that grants positional defense buffs (and is mixed with decent resistances.)
2. it allows for the armor set to be ported for Sentinels and used on characters with claws, spines, staff, titan weapons, and so fourth. (Maybe. Though didn’t the live devs once say they balanced later sets around whether they could be paired with shield defense or not?)
3. there are other armor sets with “minimal effects” options and this would kind of be the same thing.

though I also understand some arguments against it like “why not ask for iceless ice armor?” or “making it an option for Shield defense would be a coding pain and making it its own option would clutter the power selections”

 

But, what camp do you all fall into? Personally, I’ve wanted this since Live for awhile since my main then was a samurai, I wanted to represent him not just being agile but having sturdy armor, supporting teammates outside of leadership buffs (grant cover), and the charge attack being so cool.

[sponazgul]

I’m in favor of your suggestion - I guess I don’t mind Shield being available for those power sets that visually conflict with it (like claws) and if it bothers someone, they can turn off the shield

[MTeague]

If I wanted a defense based set without a shield on my arm, I'd play Super Reflexes or Ninjitsu. Probably SR because I love the sky-high DDR.

 

That said, I could perhaps see something along the lines of a Wonder Woman style bracer, or a thin buckler such as Cap wore in Wakanda, to provide some options less intrusive than the full Tower Shield, etc. But I do think there should be something. No Broadsword or Katana set without a blade. No Archery set without a bow. Shield Defense should have something on your arm, even small, because all of the animations are going to be assuming some kind of shield.

[Rudra]

My thoughts on the matter are a given: Nope.

 

There is a huge difference between minimal effects and removing a set's identity.

[Ghost]

Since you’re asking - I’d be against this.

[FupDup]

I want Shield Sentinels as much as anybody else (probably more, actually), but if there's no physical shield present then it's just not the same set anymore. If we somehow got around animation/weapon slot issues, we might have to restrict which shield models were usable with certain sets to minimize visual clipping jankiness, but there NEEDS to be something there even if it's small. 

 

 

The vibes just wouldn't be the same without the shield. 

[Sakura Tenshi]

I am a little curious for the nays spoken: do you also outright oppose the idea of two-handed weapon chaaracters being locked out of shields or just this specific idea? @FupDup seems to be good with at least the idea of a shield paired with dual pistols, assault rifle, and beam rifle. But I am curious to hear if others might just think Katana, TW, staff, and so forth should just accept 'tough' or if they'd want to see them still have the shield?

 

(I do think the really small shield/buckler/heavy bracer idea @MTeague proposed could be a good compromise)

[FupDup]

10 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

I am a little curious for the nays spoken: do you also outright oppose the idea of two-handed weapon chaaracters being locked out of shields or just this specific idea? @FupDup seems to be good with at least the idea of a shield paired with dual pistols, assault rifle, and beam rifle. But I am curious to hear if others might just think Katana, TW, staff, and so forth should just accept 'tough' or if they'd want to see them still have the shield?

 

(I do think the really small shield/buckler/heavy bracer idea @MTeague proposed could be a good compromise)

In an ideal world, I don't think Shield should be prevented from pairing with any set. I very much want to pair it with two-handed sets like Assault Rifle (see the Starcraft Marine fanart posted above).

 

What I meant is that we might have to limit the types of shield models that certain attack sets could use with shield (i.e. small models like what Cap America used in Infinity War), but I think they should all have some sort of option for it. The issue is mostly technical baggage, and we might have to get creative to work around it if it's even possible. 

 

Edited Friday at 10:41 PM by FupDup

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

I am a little curious for the nays spoken: do you also outright oppose the idea of two-handed weapon chaaracters being locked out of shields or just this specific idea? @FupDup seems to be good with at least the idea of a shield paired with dual pistols, assault rifle, and beam rifle. But I am curious to hear if others might just think Katana, TW, staff, and so forth should just accept 'tough' or if they'd want to see them still have the shield?

 

(I do think the really small shield/buckler/heavy bracer idea @MTeague proposed could be a good compromise)

If you want Shield Defense, you have a shield. I'm not looking at pairings. I'm looking at removing a set's identity in the pretense of it being minimal FX.

 

Though if you want to discuss two-handed weapons and shield use, it doesn't make sense to wield a two-handed weapon and a shield. It's rather difficult to swing a greatsword for instance when you also have to manage the shield. You're either not going to be able to maneuver that greatsword or you're going to give yourself a concussion with the shield trying to. Even targes and bucklers weren't paired with two-handed weapons because you needed that other hand (or arm) to be free to position the shield. To reference @FupDup's picture, the soldier in question isn't wielding a two-handed weapon and a shield for instance. He is firing from a ready position with a shield providing some basic protection. (Edit: And even then, the shield looks to be attached to his armor at the shoulder.) You can't do that with a weapon you need both hands to swing around to hit the target(s).

 

Edited Friday at 10:48 PM by Rudra

[FupDup]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

To reference @FupDup's picture, the soldier in question isn't wielding a two-handed weapon and a shield for instance. He is firing from a ready position with a shield providing some basic protection. You can't do that with a weapon you need both hands to swing around to hit the target(s).

That picture isn't the best for this, but the way that pictured unit works is that their gauss rifle weapon is in fact operated two-handed like a giant assault rifle. The shield however is mounted directly to the shoulder rather than being held in the off-hand. Art from a different person: 

 

 

If we were to get two-handed weapon sets with shield, the shield would probably need to be mounted on the side of our glove costume piece or something like that instead of being held in the hand. That, however, could present an issue since the game might not be able to mount an item in different spots based on your attack weapon choice due to spaghetti code shenanigans.

For Sentinels that would be less of an issue since we could just give them a slightly altered version that always mounts it to the glove/shoulder no matter what primary you have, but for melee classes it gets more complicated. It would probably be weird to make all the existing melee sets mount it on the side, and I don't think HC would like the idea of a second "dummy" Shield Defense set (with side mounting) existing as a separate armor set choice for the currently excluded sets like TW and such.

 

All of this assumes that side-mounting would even be possible, which it very well might not be. 

Edited Friday at 10:57 PM by FupDup

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, FupDup said:

That picture isn't the best for this, but the way that pictured unit works is that their gauss rifle weapon is in fact operated two-handed like a giant assault rifle. The shield however is mounted directly to the shoulder rather than being held in the off-hand. Art from a different person: 

 

 

If we were to get two-handed weapon sets with shield, the shield would probably need to be mounted on the side of our glove costume piece or something like that instead of being held in the hand. That, however, could present an issue since the game might not be able to mount an item in different spots based on your attack weapon choice due to spaghetti code shenanigans.

For Sentinels that would be less of an issue since we could just give them a slightly altered version that always mounts it to the glove/shoulder no matter what primary you have, but for melee classes it gets more complicated. It would probably be weird to make all the existing melee sets mount it on the side, and I don't think HC would like the idea of a second "dummy" Shield Defense set (with side mounting) existing as a separate armor set choice for the currently excluded sets like TW and such.

 

All of this assumes that side-mounting would even be possible, which it very well might not be. 

Yeah, you responded before my edit got posted apparently. Sorry. It looked like it was attached at the shoulder in the original picture.

 

Edit: Again though, that isn't wielding a weapon that needs to be swung around to impact the target. Even mounting a shield on the shoulder, if you are swinging a greataxe, a greatsword, or some other large weapon like that, the shield is either going to restrict your movement (and so ability to fight) or going to knock you silly when you swing your weapon around. Even bucklers and targes were only used with one-handed weapon techniques. So hand-and-a-half weapons like longswords were fine with shields, bucklers were often paired with rapiers, and a good axman probably had a targe at hand, but a greatsword? Wasn't paired with shields for obvious reasons.

 

Edited Friday at 11:02 PM by Rudra

[biostem]

I think the best solution would be to offer some more form-fitting buckler-like wrist/forearm-mounted shields, like the pic of Captain America with the Wakandan shield.  We kind of already have a version in the dark knight, (or whatever it's called), glove option.  Since shield tankers, brutes, scrappers, and stalkers can already fire various ranged attacks via their APPs/PPPs, there is already some method of achieving this, so you'd just need to restrict some sets, like archery, DP, AR, and BR, in order to make things work a bit more smoothly... 

[Sakura Tenshi]

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Though if you want to discuss two-handed weapons and shield use, it doesn't make sense to wield a two-handed weapon and a shield. It's rather difficult to swing a greatsword for instance when you also have to manage the shield. You're either not going to be able to maneuver that greatsword or you're going to give yourself a concussion with the shield trying to. Even targes and bucklers weren't paired with two-handed weapons because you needed that other hand (or arm) to be free to position the shield.

 

 

1. It's been proven possible and done that two-handed weapons could be paired with shields.
2. We're playing in a superhero setting, as it is characters do a lot of dumb and impractical stuff in their fights. You know what Lord Recluse and a Crab Spider's extra legs are? BIG TARGETS.
3. As mentioned, have you considered about a minimally interfering shield like the bracer?

 

[Aracknight]

 

I think if an invisible or even visible energy/force shield can exist as a 1st level spell it can work in Paragon City.

 

I mean, for fucks sake, if your suspension of disbelief will allow you to believe that a shield, in your left hand, can protect you from a grenade, sword, or energy beam from behind and to the right (all things shield defense does), why can we not believe in this?

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

It's been proven possible and done that two-handed weapons could be paired with shields.

I am not aware of anyone in a historical or comic reference ever wielding a two-handed melee weapon with two hands and also wielding a shield. (Edit: And please note I said wielding a shield, as in getting a benefit from the shield, not simply wearing a shield.) You asked for thoughts on the matter. And my thoughts go back to historical and modern usage of said.

 

1 hour ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

We're playing in a superhero setting, as it is characters do a lot of dumb and impractical stuff in their fights.

Not to include self-decapitation or knocking one's self out.

 

1 hour ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

You know what Lord Recluse and a Crab Spider's extra legs are? BIG TARGETS.

They at least are positioned in a manner that they don't interfere with the character's actions.

 

1 hour ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

As mentioned, have you considered about a minimally interfering shield like the bracer?

I don't care if bucklers, targes or other small devices are added as shields. I do care if the Shield Defense set has its identity taken away by not having a shield.

 

Edited yesterday at 12:18 AM by Rudra

[Rudra]

45 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

I think if an invisible or even visible energy/force shield can exist as a 1st level spell it can work in Paragon City.

Energy Aura has you covered.

[Aracknight]

16 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Energy Aura has you covered.

 

An aura is an aura, but a shield is a shield.  Do you even game bro?

[Psyonico]

14 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

 

An aura is an aura, but a shield is a shield.  Do you even game bro?

If you're going to play that kind of semantics, let me remind you of a couple powers in Energy Aura...

 

T1: Kinetic SHIELD

T3: Power SHIELD

[Aracknight]

11 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

If you're going to play that kind of semantics, let me remind you of a couple powers in Energy Aura...

 

T1: Kinetic SHIELD

T3: Power SHIELD

Excellent. 

 

So a shield can canonically be made of energy.  Should work great for Shield Defense.

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

So a shield can canonically be made of energy. 

It sure can. And we even have an armor set that is specifically designed to embody that. (It's called Energy Aura.)

 

Edit: Energy Aura is a hands free energy-based armor set that won't interfere in the character's ability to wield anything one-handed or two-handed. And if you want an energy shield Shield Defense? That exists too. It's the tech shield options.

 

Edited yesterday at 01:16 AM by Rudra

[ThatGuyCDude]

I think the problem lies in the animations, and not in the way you might think.  Shield Defense has WEIRD interaction with other animations... make a Shield-er and try to use Long Range Teleport while your shield is out, you'll get stuck in a two-second loop of starting the cast motion and stopping it until the power activates.  But that power has a fixed time until it activates, whereas attacks activate when their animations *end*.  I worry that if a Shield were paired with a two-handed weapon, those animations would likewise be blorked by the shield trying to override them.  The power doesn't execute until the animation finishes, so you could potentially run into scenarios where the power will fire too early, too late, or never at all.

The two solutions are either to remove the shield-raising component from its animations (so the shield is at rest on the arm and the character moves their arm as normal), or to make new animations suitable for the combination of shields and two-handed weapons.  I'm not sure how feasible either of those are, though: one involves repositioning the shield relative to the model or fixing it to their arm position like a glove, the other involves creating new animations entirely and making Shield Defense bypass the original animations accordingly (at that point, might as well make it a separate powerset 'buckler defense' to avoid complications that might arise from tweaking the system).

Edited 21 hours ago by ThatGuyCDude
Typo

[Ghost]

Dammit COH, I want my shieldless shield, my weaponless titan weapons, my soundless sonic, and my flying teleport!!!!!!!

 

Gimme gimme gimme

 

🙄🙄🙄

Edited yesterday at 11:11 AM by Ghost

[Ghost]

12 hours ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

 

1. It's been proven possible and done that two-handed weapons could be paired with shields

 

Sorry, but no.

Showing some drawings is not “proof” of anything lol

 

 

[Uun]

There are some small/less obtrusive shield models. For example, Vanguard Shield. When not in use it collapses to a frisbee sized disc on your forearm. When deployed it projects an energy disc.

 

[biostem]

2 hours ago, Ghost said:

flying teleport

Mystic Flight?