I don't get the love for Poison

[EnjoyTheJourney]

The math doesn't math on -60%, -100% being the norm for enemies because the radius for envenom and weaken are both just 8 feet. If a spawn has over 10 mobs in it then the clear majority of mobs will have just the splash debuff or no debuff at all from envenom and weaken, whether envenom has been applied twice or not. VG becomes a key source of -res and -def, given the small radius of envenom and weaken. In addition, poison trap makes a great alpha strike on new spawns, helping noticeably to weed out the weaker mobs. Then the small number of stronger mobs are alone that much faster and the team moves faster.

Also, VG (15 ft radius) + poison trap (25ft radius) are going to consistently affect more mobs on a large spawn than the more narrowly focused debuffs from envenom and weaken. On a related note, poison trap will do little or nothing to improve clear speed if a poison character is steering clear of melee range. In addition, waiting 3 or 4 seconds to get the second application of envenom going means the team's alpha strike has already happened and that time interval during which VG was probably operating on the mob won't happen unless the poison character is in melee range. 

As well, trivializing the role of to hit and damage debuffs in venomous gas and the hold in poison trap doesn't hold water. They contribute to clear speed by reducing incoming damage, especially to those in melee range. When any tanks, scrappers, stalkers, melee dominators, and blasters in melee range on the team take less damage, everybody gets to focus more on offense and less on healing / resting / inspiration management and the team can move faster. 

Finally, consistently operating in melee range means that a poison character gets any AOE-based buffs that are most often applied to those in melee range as a matter of course. That means more consistently applied defensive shields and, importantly, more consistent uptime on fulcrum shift. That makes a poison character's survivability and damage noticeably go up on many teams. On a related note, in my experience once teammates see a crazy controller poisoning mobs in melee range, they sometimes become more aggressive themselves. That indirect effect on teammate choices also tends to make a team move even faster^.

^ This doesn't always happen. It sometimes does, though. 

I don't know how to characterize tidge's experience. I've no doubt that is their experience. It's just head-scratching how a choice that is obviously and inevitably mechanically inferior* produces a faster clear speed. That doesn't match my experience at all. FWIW. 

* "Mechanically inferior is admittedly a loaded term. But, it's technically accurate here. You can't do less debuffing and less damage and call that mechanically superior. You. Just. Can't. 

Still, operating fully from range is absolutely viable and somebody can make an effective poison character doing that. If somebody doesn't want to make the kinds of choices that support operating in melee with a poison character, whether it be bolstering defenses, avoiding taking the alpha, accepting more defeats, or whatever, then that's totally their call. CoH is an easy game, at the end of the day, and even if it wasn't then if somebody enjoys their character more when played fully from range I wouldn't call making that choice wrong. 

Edited Friday at 04:00 PM by EnjoyTheJourney

[EnjoyTheJourney]

For a bit of context, consider the following tidbits about the area coverage for circles of different sizes ...

8 foot radius circle encompasses roughly 200 square feet
15 foot radius circle encompasses close to 700 square feet
 25 foot radius circle encompasses close to 1960 square feet

The 8 foot radius for envenom and weaken gives them a noticeable amount of area coverage for their respective debuffs. It's very clear that VG can affect noticeably more mobs than either of them, though. And, the area coverage for poison trap is in a league of its own when compared to weaken and envenom. 

Edited Friday at 03:59 PM by EnjoyTheJourney

[WuTang]

1 hour ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

The math doesn't math on -60%, -100% being the norm for enemies because the radius for envenom and weaken are both just 8 feet.

I only care about the hard targets in that scenario and any others adjacent to them. So yes the "math does math."

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Sometimes you can apply both envenom splash and direct debuffs on a boss or EB. But, only sometimes. Very often the two bosses in a spawn aren't close enough to each other for that and in those cases it's challenging to get the full effect of envenom on both of them. Often the other mobs die so fast that the minions near the boss you targeted with the first casting of envenom are already defeated by the time it recharges. Also, the time you spend on trying to make that work isn't being spent on other things and those other things you could be doing instead also have value. 

More importantly, you've accidentally created a kind of false dichotomy in how you're framing the choices available. Having VG passively acting on mobs doesn't prevent you from applying envenom twice when doing that makes sense. 

I get a sense that some playing poison think that maximizing debuffs is the main minigame on which to focus when playing poison. That's not my experience. Debuff to the extent that it makes a noticeable difference and then do damage or, if needed, apply some controls to better protect the team. 

The math is that a poison character with VG running has a higher floor and a higher ceiling for debuffs both on average across all mobs and specifically on hard targets than a poison character that doesn't have VG running. 

Edited Friday at 04:32 PM by EnjoyTheJourney

[WuTang]

36 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Very often the two bosses in a spawn aren't close enough to each other for that and in those cases it's challenging to get the full effect of envenom on both of them

This is OK too because the main dose is still stronger than what VG offers. And if you don't cycle in Weaken and only utilized Envenom you can spread the love more quickly. Everything under a boss is gone within seconds in most situations I've been in. So the coverage of VG matters little in the grand scheme. I'm just saying that the bulk of the -res/-def and the only -regen can be utilized without ever stepping foot in melee. 

 

And the positioning of the two bosses will tighten up once engaged. For instance in an ITF ambush they'll just stumble over each other. And there is no shortage of nictus bosses.

[WuTang]

6 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Finally, consistently operating in melee range means that a poison character gets any AOE-based buffs that are most often applied to those in melee range as a matter of course. That means more consistently applied defensive shields and, importantly, more consistent uptime on fulcrum shift.

Yes on a team with the right makeup/dynamics one can just be where ever they want. I have a fire blaster that can just sit in melee with the right team, so can any class/build. This still doesn't make VG all that valuable unless you are on a team that is not clearing very fast. The bulk of any group is minions and lieutenants, which are melted in seconds with most teams leaving bosses and above with some HP, then there are the stragglers or runners but they are of little consequence and VG wouldn't have affected them any ways.

 

I was on a team last night. We did a +4x8 ITF with a few under 50 players. We cleared in 48 minutes. Whole groups were dropping in seconds leaving only the hard targets standing for any real amount of time.

 

Also, VG's target cap, I believe is only 10. So within that cloud of green (or whatever you've colored it) you might not even be hitting a boss.

 

6 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

As well, trivializing the role of to hit and damage debuffs in venomous gas and the hold in poison trap doesn't hold water

Well I didn't really trivialize it, only that it doesn't add to decreasing the kill time. And it doesn't, at least not where VG is concerned because again the ranged debuff Weaken is superior to what VG brings to the table. I could see how the argument for -toHit and -damage reducing the kill time when playing along side under-geared players, but that'd be it. Most all geared folks will have their survival figured out.

 

6 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

I don't know how to characterize tidge's experience.

I believe @tidge was referring to solo clear times. And I can see the point. Not having to get into melee and live there when rolling solo would greatly reduce the amount of deaths, which only increase the clear times. And that sort of proves the point. VG doesn't actually bring that much survival to the table. Without it you don't have endurance problems and you can concentrate on just ranged def. 

 

I can solo a 10 baddie +4 mob with 1 boss with VG running and I have to sit there taking the licks until all my debuffs are distributed. BUT if I don't sit in melee, I don't take the hits, I still debuff them from range and could still mow them down just as fast, and only taken the handful of ranged attacks. Also, Poison has no heal, so when solo'ing you really don't want to take the hits.

 

And as far as popping a insp here and there, is a power set really that good if that's what ya have to do? I mean I've done it, we all have, but not on every pull, and not as part of the survival kit in my build.

 

I think I'm firmly with tidge on this one. I got roped into the VG bandwagon and now realize it's not the cat's meow.

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 09:41 PM by WuTang

[tidge]

I'll post my favorite Poison build (it is a controller) some time in the next day, which should reveal my play choices. I never play afraid of melee but there is a clear difference between which characters can hang out in melee which ones can defeat everything in melee near instantly and which cannot.

 

Part of what made my solo +0x8 times pretty good and possible for the lvl 40-50 PI content was NOT having to jump into a spawn, so that if any were still coming to me they were already hurt, debuffed and about to take more control or damage.

 

I typically don't solo +4 (boring for me) but I have no trouble with +4, even with just one other player 

[JayboH]

I'm sure the completion times difference would make a lot of sense if you consider tidge and others are spending more time trying to survive than you.  I wouldn't skip the power but I could understand not turning it on unless I was sure aggro was taken care of - even then it can strip aggro as mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

Again, even in the 8 ft scenario we are talking half debuffed targets for the majority.  I dislike having to spam different targets with the exact same power to get my full debuff from this set, unlike any other debuff set.  Jump in with VG, jump back out for Neuro, etc.  Just messy silliness.  I WANT to love this set, but that's why I brought it up - I wish it got some dev love.

[tidge]

So here is my favorite Poison build... It is a Controller (not a Corruptor). It is circa page 5, I haven't seen the need to refactor it since then. The concept is that this is character that causes enemies to be discombobulated, fall down, wander confused, etc.

 

I want to note: Powers that take Defense Debuff pieces that have a %damage proc in them will have and %damage swapped out for %-Resistance when I am teaming (via unslotters). This Controller has no pets, so being a force multiplier in solo is less important than simply doing damage. I always keep in mind: "Resistance resists resistible resistance debuffs", so against any rando enemy a resistance debuff might note be having as much of an effect as the base values of the power indicate

 

Controllers have some of the worse damage scales of any AT, so %damage makes a HUGE difference for their clear times... so specific to the Venomous Gas discussion, the typical cycle of damage-dealing (or %damage-dealing) attacks for Controllers don't mesh well with a PBAoE -debuff... especially for the ranged cones. There are powers in this build that are PBAoE, and they get used when they are ready... but otherwise it is ranged attacks/debuffs/controls that are being used.

 

I can almost see why a Corruptor with a PBAoE nuke and one other AoE attack that requires them being in might want to lean into the PBAoE toggle...  or if the concept has something like 3 attacks from the Fighting pool (moar Smashing). However... my experience with melee armor sets that include a variety of PBAoE toggles has put my thinking in a place where I will use some toggles when they layer with what else the character is doing in melee, but if it is a one-off toggle that doesn't synergize with what I'm doing (and isn't a good enhancement mule) I will probably skip/delay it. From my PoV Venomous Gas offers no practical synergy with whatever else I might be doing with the character.

 

 

Spoiler

Primary Power Set: Mind Control

Secondary Power Set: Poison

Power Pool: Fighting

Power Pool: Force of Will

Power Pool: Concealment

Ancillary Pool:  Energy Mastery

 

------------

Level 1:                 Levitate              

 (A) Gladiator's Javelin - Accuracy/Damage/End/Rech: Level 50+5

 (*) Gladiator's Javelin - Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50+5

 

Level 1:                 Envenom            

 (A) Shield Breaker - Chance for Lethal Damage: Level 30

 (*) Shield Breaker - Defense Debuff: Level 30

 (*) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Defense Debuff: Level 30

 (*) Shield Breaker - Defense Debuff/Endurance/Recharge: Level 30

 (*) Touch of Lady Grey - Chance for Negative Damage: Level 50

 

Level 2:                 Dominate           

 (A) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure (Accuracy/Damage) Level 53

 (*) HamiO:Peroxisome Exposure (Damage/Mezz) Level 53

 (*) Ghost Widow's Embrace - Chance of Damage(Psionic): Level 50

 (*) Neuronic Shutdown - Chance of Damage(Psionic): Level 30

 (*) Gladiator's Net - Chance of Damage(Lethal): Level 50

 (*) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative): Level 50

 

Level 4:                 Weaken Resolve            

 (A) HamiO:Lysosome Exposure (Accuracy / -Defense / -ToHit) Level  53

 (*) Touch of Lady Grey - Chance for Negative Damage: Level 50

 

Level 6:                 Confuse              

 (A) Coercive Persuasion  - Confused: Level 50+5

 (*) Coercive Persuasion  - Confused/Recharge: Level 50

 (*) Coercive Persuasion  - Accuracy/Confused/Recharge: Level 50

 (*) Coercive Persuasion  - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50

 (*) Coercive Persuasion  - Confused/Endurance: Level 50+5

 (*) Coercive Persuasion  - Contagious Confusion: Level 50

 

Level 8:                 Mass Hypnosis

 (A) Fortunata Hypnosis - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50

 (*) Fortunata Hypnosis - Sleep/Endurance: Level 50+5

 (*) Fortunata Hypnosis - Sleep/Recharge: Level 50

 (*) Fortunata Hypnosis - Accuracy/Sleep/Recharge: Level 50

 (*) Fortunata Hypnosis - Chance for Placate: Level 50

 (*) Call of the Sandman - Chance of Heal Self: Level 50

 

Level 10:              Boxing 

 (A) Gladiator's Strike - Accuracy/Damage: Level 50+5

 

Level 12:              Mighty Leap      

 (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points): Level 50

 

Level 14:              Wall of Force    

 (A) HamiO:Centriole Exposure (Damage/Range)Level  53

 (*) D-Sync: Guidance (Accuracy/Range) Level 53

 (*) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy): Level 50

 (*) Bombardment - Chance of Damage(Fire): Level 50

 (*) Javelin Volley - Chance of Damage(Lethal): Level 50

 (*) Explosive Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 20

 

Level 16:              Elixir of Life       

 (A) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All): Level 50

 

Level 18:              Total Domination           

 (A) Superior Will of the Controller - Accuracy/Mezz: Level 50

 (*) Superior Will of the Controller - Mezz/Recharge: Level 50

 (*) Superior Will of the Controller - Endurance/Recharge: Level 50

 (*) Superior Will of the Controller - Accuracy/Mezz/Endurance: Level 50

 (*) Superior Will of the Controller - Accuracy/Mezz/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50

 (*) Superior Will of the Controller - Recharge/Chance for Psionic Damage: Level 50

 

Level 20:              Tough  

 (A) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP: Level 50

 (*) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance: Level 50+5

 

Level 22:              Terrify 

(A) HamiO:Centriole Exposure (Damage/Range)Level  53

(*) Bombardment (Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge): Level 50

(*) Bombardment - Chance of Damage(Fire): Level 50

(*) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy): Level 50

(*) Glimpse of the Abyss - Chance of Damage(Psionic): Level 50

(*) Javelin Volley - Chance of Damage(Lethal): Level 50

 

Level 24:              Paralytic Poison              

 (A) Ghost Widow's Embrace - Chance of Damage(Psionic): Level 30

 (*) Neuronic Shutdown - Chance of Damage(Psionic): Level 30

 (*) Unbreakable Constraint - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 50

 (*) Gladiator's Net - Accuracy/Hold: Level 50+5

 (*) Gladiator's Net - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge/Hold: Level 50+5

 (*) Gladiator's Net - Chance of Damage(Lethal): Level 50

 

Level 26:              Mass Confusion              

 (A) Cacophany - Chance of Damage(Energy): Level 30

 (*) Malaise's Illusions - Chance of Damage(Psionic): Level 50

 (*) Superior Overpowering Presence - Accuracy/Mezz/Endurance/RechargeTime: Level 50

 (*) Superior Overpowering Presence - RechargeTime/Energy Font: Level 50

 (*) Superior Overpowering Presence - Endurance/RechargeTime: Level 50

 (*) Superior Overpowering Presence - Accuracy/Mezz/Endurance: Level 50

 

Level 28:              Weave

 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50

 (*) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage: Level 50

 (*) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All): Level 50

 (*) Shield Wall - Defense: Level 50+5

 (*) Shield Wall - Defense/Endurance: Level 50+5

 

Level 30:              Poison Trap       

 (A) Unbreakable Constraint - Hold: Level 50+5

 (*) Unbreakable Constraint - Hold/Recharge: Level 50+5

 (*) Unbreakable Constraint - Accuracy/Hold/Recharge: Level 50+5

 (*) Unbreakable Constraint - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50+5

 (*) Unbreakable Constraint - Endurance/Hold: Level 50+5

 

Level 32:              Alkaloid              

 (A) Preventive Medicine - %Absorb: Level 50

 

Level 35:              Power Blast       

 (A) Apocalypse - Damage: Level 50+5

 (*) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge: Level 50

 (*) Apocalypse - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50

 (*) Apocalypse - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50

 (*) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance: Level 50+5

 (*) Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Damage(Toxic): Level 50

 

Level 38:              Temp Invulnerability    

 (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%: Level 30

 

Level 41:              Energy Torrent 

(A) HamiO:Centriole Exposure (Damage/Range)Level  53

(*) D-Sync: Guidance (Accuracy/Range) Level 53

(*) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy): Level 50

(*) Bombardment - Chance of Damage(Fire): Level 50

(*) Javelin Volley - Chance of Damage(Lethal): Level 50

(*) Explosive Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 20

 

Level 44:              Unleash Potential          

 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50

 

Level 47:              Stealth

 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50

 

Level 49:              Maneuvers        

 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50

 

Level 1: Brawl    

 (A) Empty

 

Level 1: Containment    

 

Level 1: Prestige Power Slide     

 (A) Empty

 

Level 1: Sprint   

 (A) Unbounded Leap - +Stealth: Level 50

 

Level 2: Rest      

 (A) Interrupt Reduction IO: Level 50+5

 

Level 1: Athletic Run      

 

Level 2: Swift    

 (A) Run Speed IO: Level 50+5

 

Level 2: Health 

 (A) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance: Level 50

 (*) Miracle - +Recovery: Level 40

 

Level 2: Hurdle 

 (A) Jumping IO: Level 50+5

 

Level 2: Stamina              

 (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End: Level 50

 (*)Performance Shifter - Endurance Modification: Level 50

 

 

 

[Uun]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

So here is my favorite Poison build

I can absolutely see why you would skip VG on a Mind/Poison. There is nothing in Mind that requires you to be in melee.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

A very thoughtfully done build. Nice. It's clear that this character is designed to fight at range, relying on cones and targeted AOEs to control the battlefield and to do AOE damage. 

Just as my builds are clearly not your cup of tea, this isn't a build I would ever enjoy playing. I can appreciate that it would be effective, though. It's clear why VG, despite its low slotting requirements, is not a high priority for you. It's also clear why poison trap functions better for you with set bonuses than by being proc'd out for damage because for you poison trap isn't an "every new spawn" alpha strike. Instead, it's a way of responding to the occasional occurrence of mobs getting into melee range when you would have preferred to fight them from range.

At the end of the day, it's great that the game supports different ways of building and playing characters. 

[tidge]

12 minutes ago, Uun said:

I can absolutely see why you would skip VG on a Mind/Poison. There is nothing in Mind that requires you to be in melee.

 

I haven't found a combination of Poison ATs that requires me to be in melee. This Mind/Poison character spends a LOT of time in melee range... but it doesn't have to start in melee range (for a debuff, of all things) nor does it need another player to generate more threat against whatever spawn. These are the sorts of things that have the greatest effect on mission completion times in my experience (taking personal defeats out of the equation). On teams, where the PBAoE debuff is presumably most important, I've found it is very much like @WuTang described: We are fast moving, and whatever is slowing us down doesn't need a PBAoE debuff from me... for the character build I shared I have multiple ST debuffs (which cycle relatively quickly) as well as controls to apply for really problematic enemies.

 

As I wrote before: I've taken Venomous Gas on all of my Poison characters ASAP specifically to try to make it work effectively... because I'm one of those players that wants to try every power (especially T9s!) to best understand how they can be used and how they can contribute to different builds and play styles. I haven't yet found a combination of powers and play where Venomous Gas is making my characters (or the teams they are on) more effective than other choices. Where I am with my Poison characters isn't based on theory, it's an experimental outcome based on leveling them up.

 

 

[Uun]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

As I wrote before: I've taken Venomous Gas on all of my Poison characters ASAP specifically to try to make it work effectively... because I'm one of those players that wants to try every power (especially T9s!) to best understand how they can be used and how they can contribute to different builds and play styles. I haven't yet found a combination of powers and play where Venomous Gas is making my characters (or the teams they are on) more effective than other choices. Where I am with my Poison characters isn't based on theory, it's an experimental outcome based on leveling them up.

You do you, but that's not my experience. Venomous Gas makes both my Illusion/Poison controller and Poison/Sonic defender far more effective. Note, I don't take the Fighting pool on either one and have no survivability issues. I do take RoP, but I don't use it much.

[Troo]

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo............

 

poison sucks unless you want to spit on heroes OR spend a billion+ and have incarnates then it works and situational it's above average?

 

[JayboH]

I guess I would have to try that Dark build to get a feel for it, I always grab the Haunt pets.  If a player has enough recharge, could you maybe skip Possess or Fear?  maybe not due to bonuses.  I prefer dominators to controllers, but then we aren't talking about Poison.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

If you try out the dark build I posted earlier, consider dropping the world of confusion power, replacing it with haunt, and then slotting in five pieces of the Glimpse of the Abyss set into haunt. Haunt's damage isn't that high anyways and the Glimpse damage proc makes the damage better. That has the pleasant effect of pushing accuracy to over 95% for dark grasp and to boosting poison trap's accuracy as well. 

I realized later that I didn't update the dark / poison build to reflect how I had actually done with it in-game (ie: that was an older, draft build). I've since replaced him with a pyro / poison / psy troller that I like better, and so all of the IOs were taken out of my dark / poison to help out my pyro / poison troller. I've heard that the version of Mids that incorporates pyrotechnics control is buggy, I'm still using an older Mids version because of that, and so I don't have a mids build to post for my pyro / poison / psy troller. 

 

Edited Saturday at 10:36 PM by EnjoyTheJourney