I don't get the love for Poison

[EnjoyTheJourney]

The math doesn't math on -60%, -100% being the norm for enemies because the radius for envenom and weaken are both just 8 feet. If a spawn has over 10 mobs in it then the clear majority of mobs will have just the splash debuff or no debuff at all from envenom and weaken, whether envenom has been applied twice or not. VG becomes a key source of -res and -def, given the small radius of envenom and weaken. In addition, poison trap makes a great alpha strike on new spawns, helping noticeably to weed out the weaker mobs. Then the small number of stronger mobs are alone that much faster and the team moves faster.

Also, VG (15 ft radius) + poison trap (25ft radius) are going to consistently affect more mobs on a large spawn than the more narrowly focused debuffs from envenom and weaken. On a related note, poison trap will do little or nothing to improve clear speed if a poison character is steering clear of melee range. In addition, waiting 3 or 4 seconds to get the second application of envenom going means the team's alpha strike has already happened and that time interval during which VG was probably operating on the mob won't happen unless the poison character is in melee range. 

As well, trivializing the role of to hit and damage debuffs in venomous gas and the hold in poison trap doesn't hold water. They contribute to clear speed by reducing incoming damage, especially to those in melee range. When any tanks, scrappers, stalkers, melee dominators, and blasters in melee range on the team take less damage, everybody gets to focus more on offense and less on healing / resting / inspiration management and the team can move faster. 

Finally, consistently operating in melee range means that a poison character gets any AOE-based buffs that are most often applied to those in melee range as a matter of course. That means more consistently applied defensive shields and, importantly, more consistent uptime on fulcrum shift. That makes a poison character's survivability and damage noticeably go up on many teams. On a related note, in my experience once teammates see a crazy controller poisoning mobs in melee range, they sometimes become more aggressive themselves. That indirect effect on teammate choices also tends to make a team move even faster^.

^ This doesn't always happen. It sometimes does, though. 

I don't know how to characterize tidge's experience. I've no doubt that is their experience. It's just head-scratching how a choice that is obviously and inevitably mechanically inferior* produces a faster clear speed. That doesn't match my experience at all. FWIW. 

* "Mechanically inferior is admittedly a loaded term. But, it's technically accurate here. You can't do less debuffing and less damage and call that mechanically superior. You. Just. Can't. 

Still, operating fully from range is absolutely viable and somebody can make an effective poison character doing that. If somebody doesn't want to make the kinds of choices that support operating in melee with a poison character, whether it be bolstering defenses, avoiding taking the alpha, accepting more defeats, or whatever, then that's totally their call. CoH is an easy game, at the end of the day, and even if it wasn't then if somebody enjoys their character more when played fully from range I wouldn't call making that choice wrong. 

Edited 7 hours ago by EnjoyTheJourney

[EnjoyTheJourney]

For a bit of context, consider the following tidbits about the area coverage for circles of different sizes ...

8 foot radius circle encompasses roughly 200 square feet
15 foot radius circle encompasses close to 700 square feet
 25 foot radius circle encompasses close to 1960 square feet

The 8 foot radius for envenom and weaken gives them a noticeable amount of area coverage for their respective debuffs. It's very clear that VG can affect noticeably more mobs than either of them, though. And, the area coverage for poison trap is in a league of its own when compared to weaken and envenom. 

Edited 7 hours ago by EnjoyTheJourney

[WuTang]

1 hour ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

The math doesn't math on -60%, -100% being the norm for enemies because the radius for envenom and weaken are both just 8 feet.

I only care about the hard targets in that scenario and any others adjacent to them. So yes the "math does math."

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Sometimes you can apply both envenom splash and direct debuffs on a boss or EB. But, only sometimes. Very often the two bosses in a spawn aren't close enough to each other for that and in those cases it's challenging to get the full effect of envenom on both of them. Often the other mobs die so fast that the minions near the boss you targeted with the first casting of envenom are already defeated by the time it recharges. Also, the time you spend on trying to make that work isn't being spent on other things and those other things you could be doing instead also have value. 

More importantly, you've accidentally created a kind of false dichotomy in how you're framing the choices available. Having VG passively acting on mobs doesn't prevent you from applying envenom twice when doing that makes sense. 

I get a sense that some playing poison think that maximizing debuffs is the main minigame on which to focus when playing poison. That's not my experience. Debuff to the extent that it makes a noticeable difference and then do damage or, if needed, apply some controls to better protect the team. 

The math is that a poison character with VG running has a higher floor and a higher ceiling for debuffs both on average across all mobs and specifically on hard targets than a poison character that doesn't have VG running. 

Edited 6 hours ago by EnjoyTheJourney

[WuTang]

36 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Very often the two bosses in a spawn aren't close enough to each other for that and in those cases it's challenging to get the full effect of envenom on both of them

This is OK too because the main dose is still stronger than what VG offers. And if you don't cycle in Weaken and only utilized Envenom you can spread the love more quickly. Everything under a boss is gone within seconds in most situations I've been in. So the coverage of VG matters little in the grand scheme. I'm just saying that the bulk of the -res/-def and the only -regen can be utilized without ever stepping foot in melee. 

 

And the positioning of the two bosses will tighten up once engaged. For instance in an ITF ambush they'll just stumble over each other. And there is no shortage of nictus bosses.

[WuTang]

6 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Finally, consistently operating in melee range means that a poison character gets any AOE-based buffs that are most often applied to those in melee range as a matter of course. That means more consistently applied defensive shields and, importantly, more consistent uptime on fulcrum shift.

Yes on a team with the right makeup/dynamics one can just be where ever they want. I have a fire blaster that can just sit in melee with the right team, so can any class/build. This still doesn't make VG all that valuable unless you are on a team that is not clearing very fast. The bulk of any group is minions and lieutenants, which are melted in seconds with most teams leaving bosses and above with some HP, then there are the stragglers or runners but they are of little consequence and VG wouldn't have affected them any ways.

 

I was on a team last night. We did a +4x8 ITF with a few under 50 players. We cleared in 48 minutes. Whole groups were dropping in seconds leaving only the hard targets standing for any real amount of time.

 

Also, VG's target cap, I believe is only 10. So within that cloud of green (or whatever you've colored it) you might not even be hitting a boss.

 

6 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

As well, trivializing the role of to hit and damage debuffs in venomous gas and the hold in poison trap doesn't hold water

Well I didn't really trivialize it, only that it doesn't add to decreasing the kill time. And it doesn't, at least not where VG is concerned because again the ranged debuff Weaken is superior to what VG brings to the table. I could see how the argument for -toHit and -damage reducing the kill time when playing along side under-geared players, but that'd be it. Most all geared folks will have their survival figured out.

 

6 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

I don't know how to characterize tidge's experience.

I believe @tidge was referring to solo clear times. And I can see the point. Not having to get into melee and live there when rolling solo would greatly reduce the amount of deaths, which only increase the clear times. And that sort of proves the point. VG doesn't actually bring that much survival to the table. Without it you don't have endurance problems and you can concentrate on just ranged def. 

 

I can solo a 10 baddie +4 mob with 1 boss with VG running and I have to sit there taking the licks until all my debuffs are distributed. BUT if I don't sit in melee, I don't take the hits, I still debuff them from range and could still mow them down just as fast, and only taken the handful of ranged attacks. Also, Poison has no heal, so when solo'ing you really don't want to take the hits.

 

And as far as popping a insp here and there, is a power set really that good if that's what ya have to do? I mean I've done it, we all have, but not on every pull, and not as part of the survival kit in my build.

 

I think I'm firmly with tidge on this one. I got roped into the VG bandwagon and now realize it's not the cat's meow.

 

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by WuTang

[tidge]

I'll post my favorite Poison build (it is a controller) some time in the next day, which should reveal my play choices. I never play afraid of melee but there is a clear difference between which characters can hang out in melee which ones can defeat everything in melee near instantly and which cannot.

 

Part of what made my solo +0x8 times pretty good and possible for the lvl 40-50 PI content was NOT having to jump into a spawn, so that if any were still coming to me they were already hurt, debuffed and about to take more control or damage.

 

I typically don't solo +4 (boring for me) but I have no trouble with +4, even with just one other player