A relook at Sorcery Pool's Flight

[Ultimo]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

Arcane Bolt is definitely a pick dependent on your AT and concept.

 

I know for my spellcaster themed gravity controller, arcane bolt outperforms Propel in just about every metric and adds a nice batch of energy damage to an otherwise smashing heavy set.

Actually, I find Arcane Bolt is VERY useful for Controllers, as it gets double damage on controlled enemies.  Controllers desperately lack damage from their OWN powers, so Arcane Bolt is a godsend.  I'm not sure if Enflame has the same effect, it's hard to tell with all the numbers flying by...

[biostem]

I, for one, do NOT want the sorcery pool to be changed to be closer to the flight pool.  The added control and defense of hover are actually quite big advantages, and totally in line with that power pool, well, focusing so heavily on flying itself.  Mystic flight actually addresses one of the many issues with taking straight-up teleport, (though without being able to enhance the translocation component), which is fine IMHO.  While I agree with @Ultimo that arcane bolt is quite useful, I do wish is cast time was shortened.  I'd also like to see spirit ward made into a regular ally-only click power - I just don't think it is good enough to be a maintained toggle, (though the mechanic itself is novel)...

Edited November 3 by biostem

[Ultimo]

I'm still unclear on the problem.

 

Mystic Flight has the Translocation secondary power.  Flight has the Afterburner power.  Are they not otherwise identical?  Hover affects each one the same way, and is a second power choice in either case.... so I'm not sure what the issue is.

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

I'm not sure what the issue is

My interpretation is the OP wants a hover-like power within the sorcery pool, so they wouldn't have to dip into another power pool and/or didn't have to take some other "filler" power in the pool in order to get rune of protection, (and possibly also still have a LotG mule)...

Edited November 3 by biostem

[CoeruleumBlue]

On 11/2/2025 at 8:01 PM, Ultimo said:

Actually, I find Arcane Bolt is VERY useful for Controllers, as it gets double damage on controlled enemies.  Controllers desperately lack damage from their OWN powers, so Arcane Bolt is a godsend.  I'm not sure if Enflame has the same effect, it's hard to tell with all the numbers flying by...

 

Where are these Controllers people make that don't do a lot of damage? And even if I made a controller that didn't do a lot of damage, I wouldn't want to be forced into taking a power called Arcane Bolt when my controller isn't themed on being a spellcaster. I'm fine with it being an option, but no, controllers don't need Arcane Bolt to get damage. Most of mine don't even need the Epic Pools to get damage, though there's always been a toggle, pet, or something else I wanted from them so far, I just skip most of the attacks unless they have effects other than damage in them. I am wondering what kind of Controller builds you people are even running. 

[Uun]

On 11/5/2025 at 12:44 AM, CoeruleumBlue said:

Where are these Controllers people make that don't do a lot of damage? And even if I made a controller that didn't do a lot of damage, I wouldn't want to be forced into taking a power called Arcane Bolt when my controller isn't themed on being a spellcaster. I'm fine with it being an option, but no, controllers don't need Arcane Bolt to get damage. Most of mine don't even need the Epic Pools to get damage, though there's always been a toggle, pet, or something else I wanted from them so far, I just skip most of the attacks unless they have effects other than damage in them. I am wondering what kind of Controller builds you people are even running. 

Earth and Ice are notoriously light on damage outside of the pets.

[srmalloy]

21 minutes ago, Uun said:

Earth and Ice are notoriously light on damage outside of the pets.

And when you're up against opponents who are resistant, the lack of Containment drives your damage down significantly.

[Doomguide2005]

9 hours ago, Uun said:

Earth and Ice are notoriously light on damage outside of the pets.

This ^

My various Earth Controllers are great at mezzing/controlling multiple mobs if need be,, but there's a reason I proc the single target Hold and paired it with Storm on my main Controller.  I have yet to recreate my Retail Ice/Sonic thinking Sonic's resist debuffs would help with damage.  Turns out multiplying a tiny value is still a tiny value.  Couldn't fight its way out of a proverbial wet bag without bottoming out endurance.  Granted a whole lot has changed since then but ...

[Zormico]

I like the Fly and TP combo as most of my toons have either fly or TP, so having both in one is great.  but I do have mine bind so I double tap it to toggle on fly and TP reticle, and another key to fly and TP to target.  TP to target macro/bind is imo what makes TP the best travel power.  teammate ran off and engaged a group 2 rooms away, TP to him...why bother running through doors or caves when you can blink to him.  if they changed the power I wish they would make it so you could add range to translocation like you can the normal TP pool 

[srmalloy]

8 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

thinking Sonic's resist debuffs would help with damage.

The problem is that Resistance is also Resistance Debuff Resistance -- so if you have a power that is a 10% Resistance debuff, and you use it on a target that's 90% resistant to the type of damage linked to that power, they resist 90% of your debuff, so their resistance drops to 89% -- yes, they're taking 10% more damage than they were, but the difference between a 200-point hit that gets resisted down to 20 and a 200-point hit that gets resisted down to 22 isn't going to be noticeable except over the long haul -- and a controller isn't durable enough to easily hang in a fight with a mob that can hit 90% resistance.

[tidge]

For extra damage on a Controller, I pretty much always go Force of Will.

 

1) Mighty Leap (for travel)

2) Weaken Resolve (reasonable debuff, plus can %damage at range)

3) Wall of Force (Exceleent AoE cone, with a control piece)

4) Unleash Potential (as a self-buff, holds many good sets)

 

Project Will isn't bad (it also has a control element for Controllers) but typically I don't have the slots for it, and certainly not at low levels. I typically don't have a place in my control/attack chains for it, whereas the Weaken Resolver debuff can fill a gap should I have one.

[biostem]

11 minutes ago, tidge said:

For extra damage on a Controller

One interesting little quirk I've found is that toxic dart from experimentation, does a big chunk of extra lethal damage upfront, for its containment effect - probably to avoid weird behaviors from it's primarily toxic DoT effect.  It also animates and recharges quickly...

[tidge]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

One interesting little quirk I've found is that toxic dart from experimentation, does a big chunk of extra lethal damage upfront, for its containment effect - probably to avoid weird behaviors from it's primarily toxic DoT effect.  It also animates and recharges quickly...

 

Yep, pretty much all the 'origin' pools have containment effects on the attacks. It isn't something unique to only one of them.

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

One interesting little quirk I've found is that toxic dart from experimentation, does a big chunk of extra lethal damage upfront, for its containment effect - probably to avoid weird behaviors from it's primarily toxic DoT effect.  It also animates and recharges quickly...

They all have containment effects.

 

The main thing I have against Toxic Dart is that it uses a weak looking toss animation and not the wrist launcher animation.

[Doomguide2005]

6 hours ago, srmalloy said:

The problem is that Resistance is also Resistance Debuff Resistance -- so if you have a power that is a 10% Resistance debuff, and you use it on a target that's 90% resistant to the type of damage linked to that power, they resist 90% of your debuff, so their resistance drops to 89% -- yes, they're taking 10% more damage than they were, but the difference between a 200-point hit that gets resisted down to 20 and a 200-point hit that gets resisted down to 22 isn't going to be noticeable except over the long haul -- and a controller isn't durable enough to easily hang in a fight with a mob that can hit 90% resistance.

Yeah aware of that now not so much many issues ago.  But this was pre inherent fitness on top of the fact it was leveling yet and just barely beyond 20th.  I'd have been super excited by hypothetical 200 damage.  But 3 white con foes (that lovely number tossed about by Jack) was more than I could handle without hitting bottom on end before they hit the ground and it would have been more like 20 damage boosted to 23, Yay.   It was horrific struggle and I've no doubt things would be vastly different for many reasons these days between procs, inherent fitness, START vendor etc.

[Jacke]

On 11/2/2025 at 7:01 PM, Ultimo said:

Actually, I find Arcane Bolt is VERY useful for Controllers, as it gets double damage on controlled enemies.  Controllers desperately lack damage from their OWN powers, so Arcane Bolt is a godsend.  I'm not sure if Enflame has the same effect, it's hard to tell with all the numbers flying by...

 

I use Arcane Bolt on Controllers too.  And I believe that as with Containment, Arcane Power adds the same damage again.  So Arcane Power and Containment does three times the damage.

 

 

[biostem]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

Yep, pretty much all the 'origin' pools have containment effects on the attacks. It isn't something unique to only one of them.

What I meant was odd about how toxic dart behaved was that the containment effect was front-loaded lethal damage, whereas the power only does a trivial amount of it, then a larger amount of toxic DoT...

[CoeruleumBlue]

On 11/6/2025 at 9:28 AM, Uun said:

Earth and Ice are notoriously light on damage outside of the pets.

 

Yes, but those sets still get damage from the pets, and you can get damage from a lot of the secondary sets, and once you get to Epic Pools you can definitely get damage. It's nice that there's Arcane Bolt but God please help us not have anyone change the game so that Arcane Bolt becomes the main source of damage for Controllers when pretty much all my Controllers are Mutant or Science origin and on most of them that take Sorcery it's just for the flight and that's it. I'm not putting Spirit Ward on Phantom Army, or Spirit Tree, or Reverberator, or Gravity Well and I don't want my botanist or my telekineticist to have to stop and be like "I cast Magic Missile!" in a superhero game. I'm happy Magic Ice/Ice Control characters have a set just for them apparently, but I don't play that and I hope people don't change Controllers to make them all play more like that. One of the powers in Sorcery probably should be a Hover or something else you can take on characters other than Magic Ice/Ice Controllers and Masterminds, though at least there's "and Masterminds" that makes it work for more than basically just one ridiculously specific build and RP choice. 

Edited Sunday at 07:20 AM by CoeruleumBlue

[A.I.D.A.]

If you're really having issues with the inertial stop, then use Translocate to stop. Just do the last fifty units or whatever of distance between you and the clicky with Translocation. The inertia will fade over the course of the casting animation.

[CoeruleumBlue]

On 11/2/2025 at 11:31 PM, biostem said:

I, for one, do NOT want the sorcery pool to be changed to be closer to the flight pool.  The added control and defense of hover are actually quite big advantages, and totally in line with that power pool, well, focusing so heavily on flying itself.  Mystic flight actually addresses one of the many issues with taking straight-up teleport, (though without being able to enhance the translocation component), which is fine IMHO.  While I agree with @Ultimo that arcane bolt is quite useful, I do wish is cast time was shortened.  I'd also like to see spirit ward made into a regular ally-only click power - I just don't think it is good enough to be a maintained toggle, (though the mechanic itself is novel)...

 

While Rune of Protection is not necessary on any characters, I think at least maybe Spirit Ward could also be allowed to be used on yourself, then people who want Sorcery but don't want Arcane Bolt could get more use out of that. That might also justify it being a toggle. Right now Sorcery seems like it's for ice and earth controllers and masterminds who don't use secondaries that do damage and have a magic theme. That's really specific. It could do with being viable on any kind of build that has a magic theme beyond just taking it for the Mystic Flight which can be done on builds that don't have a magic theme if you just want flight and teleportation in one power and don't need everything else from the sets, which is basically how the travel powers on every set are. Even if you did, say, a Gravity Controller with a magic theme which I have seen, or an Illusion Controller with a magic theme, or God forbid, a Blaster with a magic theme, you are basically not getting anything from Sorcery but Mystic Flight because Spirit Ward and Arcane Bolt are definitely not for you. I think meleers can get something out of Arcane Bolt at least and I see lots of them take it for the Pyre Patch. 

[biostem]

1 hour ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

magic theme

The thing is, (at least IMO), the "origin power pools" are NOT meant to have the same kind of broad appeal and application as the generic ones.  Ranged attacks are vanishingly rare in power pools, so while I think arcane bolt could use some work, it is one of the only options available to ATs that would otherwise have to wait until their APPs/PPPs to get them.  Spirit ward and enflame are extremely case-specific in their utility, but at least enflame can be used offensively.  I think spirit ward could stand to be made into a click power, or maybe even a PBAoE that also affects the caster, (albeit at adjusted levels of +absorb).  The fact that rune of protection bestows status protection and dmg res, and can even break one out of status effects IIRC, makes it quite powerful - but again we come back to a similar argument to the fighting pool - these powers aren't strictly necessary, and watering down the opportunity cost of getting those more desirable powers is not, (again IMHO), NOT a good thing...

[CoeruleumBlue]

52 minutes ago, biostem said:

The thing is, (at least IMO), the "origin power pools" are NOT meant to have the same kind of broad appeal and application as the generic ones.  Ranged attacks are vanishingly rare in power pools, so while I think arcane bolt could use some work, it is one of the only options available to ATs that would otherwise have to wait until their APPs/PPPs to get them.  Spirit ward and enflame are extremely case-specific in their utility, but at least enflame can be used offensively.  I think spirit ward could stand to be made into a click power, or maybe even a PBAoE that also affects the caster, (albeit at adjusted levels of +absorb).  The fact that rune of protection bestows status protection and dmg res, and can even break one out of status effects IIRC, makes it quite powerful - but again we come back to a similar argument to the fighting pool - these powers aren't strictly necessary, and watering down the opportunity cost of getting those more desirable powers is not, (again IMHO), NOT a good thing...

 

Yes, but the question of whether or not you want the Fighting pool is mostly "do I want more Defense and Resistance" and the melee attacks are generally useable by everyone. The "origin power pools" are called Specialized Pools, and Sorcery is basically the only one that's untakeable if you don't want the attack because Spirit Ward barely works, so it doesn't really work as an "origin power pool" for probably the vast majority of Magic characters, and people who aren't Magic characters and who aren't even multi-origin characters who would want to cast Magic Missile are taking it just for the attack and probably the flight. At least with Experimentation you can take Experimental Injection and use it on literally any kind of pet or your teammates and it'll be viable, you don't have to take Toxic Dart if you already have a lot of basic attacks at all, and Force of Will I have literally just taken for Weaken Resolve before even on characters that unlocked Epic Pools, but you can also take it just for the attacks, or just for the jump.

 

I like that builds that don't have a lot of damage have the option of taking Arcane Bolt, but that's still a thematic choice and they can also take Toxic Dart or Project Will or Fighting attacks, and apparently even Air Superiority is good now. Arcane Bolt is not the only option and I hope to God they don't change that just because some people have the mentality "if I could cast spells I could do anything" rather than thinking of it narratively as the idea of magic energy and that magic involves spirits or forces and there's usually a cost to it and a cultural context. It's really just that Spirit Ward is bad now, while all the other powers on the other pools are viable, so you can take Experimentation or Force of Will solely for the non-offensive powers if you'd like, but you can also take them for the attacks if you prefer those thematically.

 

Experimentation and Force of Will are not pools that you can only take on really specific builds, while Sorcery basically seems like a pool for really specific builds, and to make matters worse, using it for really specific builds actually seems to outweigh any thematic concerns, because I actually don't see Ice Controllers or various Masterminds taking Rune of Protection at all, and when I first joined CO I had someone tell me I should take Sorcery on a Mutation-origin Mind Control Dominator (even though I don't think that's a build you need it on just for mechanical purposes) because Sorcery is supposedly the greatest pool ever for Controllers regardless of the theme and Controllers and Dominators were supposedly the same. I think that's terrible design. You don't need Sorcery on all Controllers either thank God, but if you're making a Mutation Ice Controller or Mutation Mastermind you should not be like "I need Magic Missile," and if you're making a Magic Blaster or a Magic Defender you should probably be like "yes, Sorcery would probably be a better theme than for me to take Experimentation and say it's alchemy or take Force of Will and say it's soul binding."

 

They probably just need to make Spirit Ward actually good and then Sorcery will be equal to the other two instead of people basically just taking it for Mystic Flight or to cast Magic Missile I mean Arcane Bolt, and actually not really usually investing in the entire pool. I can use Experimentation or Force of Will on tons of concepts, and heck, you can even use Experimentation and Force of Will on Magic concepts because potions or alchemy and mind magic and illusions are things. Sorcery is just basically taken for Arcane Bolt or Mystic Flight and if people happen to have both they're probably on a melee build rather than anything specifically to do with Sorcery and going to use Enflame, so there's not much use of the concept at all, despite the popularity of making a Doctor Strange hero, because that Doctor Strange hero is probably using Symphony Control or Illusion Control and doesn't need Arcane Bolt or Spirit Ward. On the other hand on anything I know that needs temporary defenses I usually just go with Force of Will and/or Presence. If Spirit Ward were more broadly applicable you could probably just do Spirit Ward/Mystic Flight/Rune of Protection and not take any attacks and you should probably be able to do that thematically, right now no one takes that at all because Spirit Ward isn't very good at all.

 

So it probably just boils down to fix Spirit Ward. Maybe Spirit Ward should just be replaced with something like Clear Mind or Enforced Morale, and maybe it also works on yourself, because anyone can get to max stealth for their Archetype if they use Power Pools, maybe just have a way to get max perception if they use it on themselves and call it Divination. Maybe that's overkill and Spirit Ward can be replaced with something else, but right now I don't think Spirit Ward would even be very popular even if it weren't a toggle because Weaken Resolve is a debuff and Experimental Injection has way more effects than just giving people some damage absorption so you can put more procs in it and use it on any pets you might have, heck, one of the things you can put in Experimental Injection if you'd like is actually Rectified Reticle even though that affects yourself. You can also put all sorts of other procs that just affect yourself, Experimental Injection as a proc mule is currently obnoxious and everyone I've ever encountered who said they wanted a medic character was told to take Experimentation just for Experimental Injection because Medicine is widely considered useless as well. Maybe Spirit Ward can be replaced with an endurance sap power to go with Arcane Bolt being an energy damage power that charges up when you use your powers if a divination power is overkill. Barrier HP is not going to be popular at all unless it also works on yourself and that's probably not in the spirit of the other Specialized Pools at all. 

Edited Sunday at 07:12 PM by CoeruleumBlue

[Uun]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

I think spirit ward could stand to be made into a click power, or maybe even a PBAoE that also affects the caster, (albeit at adjusted levels of +absorb). 

I can't find the patch note so maybe I'm misremembering or confusing it with another power, but I think Spirit Ward was originally a click and changed to a toggle at some point.

[srmalloy]

3 hours ago, A.I.D.A. said:

If you're really having issues with the inertial stop, then use Translocate to stop.

For an immediate (modulo the animation time) stop:
 

/macro Stop "powexeclocation me Translocation"

[DoctorDitko]

13 hours ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

I'm not putting Spirit Ward on Phantom Army

 

Good! Never try to buff PA, they're indestructible and AFAIK unbuffable. Phantasm, now, needs all the help he can get. Loving the new controls on him!

 

That said, I recently played an alt that has both Mystic Flight and Hover. It feels weird, but it definitely stops on a dime. 

 

Would I choose Hover again on respec? No, it just means I need to let up on the movement key a beat earlier. But I try never to respec, it feels like sitting through an exam. ("Do you remember ALL your mistakes from last time? We'll see.")