page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Mastermind Archetype Adjustments

[Bionic_Flea]

3 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Is that vs a "levelless" Pylon

 

Yes.  One of the three levelless Pylons, not a combat dummy.  What level Dummy should I go for?  (Please don't say all five 🫣).

 

Speaking of which . . . Hey @Cobalt Arachne!  Are we going to get +5, +6, and +7 dummies somewhere?

[Bionic_Flea]

So, I did the +4 Vanguard Dummy on test.  I should also say that I am +1 and slotted with all the I-powers, but I'm not using any except for Alpha (Intuition Radial Paragon) and Interface (Degenerative Partial Radial).  I also have Hybrid support but that only grants passive endurance.  I'm not toggling it on for the extra damage.  I'll try it again on Live in a few minutes.

 

Test 50+4:

 

Live 50+4:

 

So +4 faster on test by a decent amount.  Going for +2 next.

 

50+2 Live:

50+2 Test:

 

Essentially tied at +2.  Level 50 next (remember I am +1)

Level 50 on Live:

 

Level 50 on Test:

 

Also essentially identical.

 

So at least for me on this build, the changes are not helping me at 50 or 50+2 but a decent boost for me on 50+4., at least against a pylon or dummy that aren't fighting back.  I'll try to run an identical AE mission at the same levels . . . but I might not be able until the weekend.

Edited 3 hours ago by Bionic_Flea

[Glacier Peak]

Build - Mastermind (Robotics - Cold Domination).mbd

 

Vanguard Training Pylon Test (outside RWZ bunker entrance)

 

Test criteria 1: On live and test, using the same build and testing conditions, within 60ft of Henchmen (for Supremacy), with only Infrigidate and Benumb used on recharge, no incarnates active.

 

Live: 

 

Test: Unable to defeat Vanguard Training Pylon. Not enough DPS.

 

Test criteria 2: On live and test, using the same build and testing conditions, within 60ft of Henchmen (for Supremacy), with only Infrigidate and Benumb used on recharge, Alpha, Hybrid, and Interface incarnates active.

 

Live: 

 

Test:  Had to use Heat Loss on recharge or else it would've been stalemate on DPS.

 

Test criteria 3: On live and test, using the same build and testing conditions, within 60ft of Henchmen (for Supremacy), attempting fastest defeat time (including using all available powers from powerset/Incarnates and summoning Lore pet - no inspirations used).

 

Live: 

 

Test: 

 

Conclusion: Unable to draw anything conclusive! The first two tests resulted in differences, with the test changes being I was unable to defeat the Vanguard Training Pylon. However, the third test was somehow exactly the same result. 

[ScarySai]

The offsets to compensate for the level diff change are too heavy handed, and essentially nullify the gains this should be giving mastermind players.

 

Dial them back, a lot. Having an even con arsonist feel weak is just tragic.

[Videra]

We now live in a world where Masterminds have been, broadly speaking, 'adjusted' in such an over-complicated manner that something as simple as removing the -level debuff pets have? Has somehow transformed into a nerf.

[Vinceq98]

I logged on and copied my mercs/traps to run a 54x8 mission and the bosses took forever to kill. The mercs were hitting for wet noodles. This game doesnt have damage meters so its all vibes based testing. Seems so complicated to balance when you can just give the pets the levels instead like they are in incarnate missions. a 50+5 minion felt better on live that the 50+3 minion on test servers,

 

Edit. Reading the patch notes felt like this was the mastermind patch but playing it felt like a letdown. Honestly seems to be a waste of effort finding the perfect formula when the solution seems at least to me is just remove the level penalty. Its the holidays, spend your time wisely and not on overly complicated balance math.

Edited 3 hours ago by Vinceq98

[mistagoat]

14 minutes ago, Vinceq98 said:

This game doesnt have damage meters

I use this one, it's easy to set up and use and Sythlin is is pretty responsive if you run into an issue.

 

 

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

So at least for me on this build, the changes are not helping me at 50 or 50+2 but a decent boost for me on 50+4., at least against a pylon or dummy that aren't fighting back.  I'll try to run an identical AE mission at the same levels . . . but I might not be able until the weekend.

Yeah +2-conning foes are what they're apparently aiming at as the "breakeven point" for non-proc damage; so it's good your data reflects that.
 

 

Quote

• Henchmen modifiers and stat values have been adjusted in order of keeping them about as effective as before on +2 encounters.
• Henchmen proc damage modifiers have been adjusted in order of keeping them about as effective as before on +3 foes.

 

As mentioned previously, I think the raw damage is in a reasonably balanced place right now for that "breakeven vs +2s" aim... but I'm not so sure about Incarnate proc damage. I strongly suspect that Interface Abilities which are weighted "75% DoT/25% Debuff" and Assault Radial Hybrid "Doublehit" procs are going to be seeing a much bigger drop in effectiveness; so that's something that I specifically would like to test once I get the chance later on in the week (pesky RL commitment time sinks...) 😝

[Neiska]

Do have a random thought -

 

Since Supremacy is so much more important now than before, how difficult would it be to get some kind of visual representation? Nothing too drastic, just something like a dull white aura or something? A way to tell at a glance if pets are in range or not?

[Captain Powerhouse]

Dropping by for a quick note about the accuracy of henchmen live vs beta. The data bellow shows a comparison of live vs test hit rolls before enhancements. With and Without supremacy. The last two charts show how much +acc (not +ToHit) is needed to reach the 95% ceiling. In every situation, the henchmen have higher final hit chances than live. I can understand wanting more, but as a baseline, we are trying to handle this conversion without high buffs. We will likely adjust things further during the beta window, but major buffs beyond these are likely to come in a follow-up Panel release.

 

Note: still need to look at the reported proc damage tables, so far the reported numbers don't sound to be adhering to the intended goals. 

 

With Supremacy
	Test			Live			Delta
	T1	T2	T3	T1	T2	T3	T1	T2	T3
+0	68	77	85	66	75	85	2	2	0
+1	58	67	75	58	66	75	0	1	0
+2	49	58	66	49	58	66	0	0	0
+3	41	50	58	40	49	58	1	1	0
+4	32	41	49	30	40	49	2	1	0
+5	23	32	40	18	30	40	5	2	0
With No Supremacy
	Test			Live			Delta
	T1	T2		T1	T2	T3	T1	T2	T3
+0	58	67	75	56	65	75	2	2	0
+1	48	57	65	48	56	65	0	1	0
+2	39	48	56	39	48	56	0	0	0
+3	31	40	48	30	39	48	1	1	0
+4	22	31	39	20	30	39	2	1	0
+5	13	22	30	8	20	30	5	2	0
+Acc Needed to Sotcap (With Supremacy)
	Test			Live			Delta (lower is better)
	T1	T2	T3	T1	T2	T3	T1	T2	T2
+0	0.47	0.27	0.13	0.52	0.31	0.13	-5%	-4%	0%
+1	0.77	0.49	0.31	0.77	0.52	0.31	0%	-3%	0%
+2	1.18	0.77	0.52	1.18	0.77	0.52	0%	0%	0%
+3	1.74	1.13	0.77	1.83	1.18	0.77	-9%	-5%	0%
+4	2.86	1.74	1.18	3.25	1.83	1.18	-39%	-9%	0%
+5	5.54	2.86	1.83	9.63	3.25	1.83	-409%	-39%	0%
+Acc Needed to Sotcap (With No Supremacy)
	Test			Live			Delta (lower is better)
	T1	T2	T3	T1	T2	T3	T1	T2	T2
+0	0.64	0.42	0.27	0.70	0.46	0.27	-6%	-4%	0%
+1	0.98	0.67	0.46	0.98	0.70	0.46	0%	-3%	0%
+2	1.44	0.98	0.70	1.44	0.98	0.70	0%	0%	0%
+3	2.06	1.38	0.98	2.17	1.44	0.98	-10%	-6%	0%
+4	3.32	2.06	1.44	3.75	2.17	1.44	-43%	-10%	0%
+5	6.31	3.32	2.17	10.88	3.75	2.17	-457%	-43%	0%

[Thezanman]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Dropping by for a quick note about the accuracy of henchmen live vs beta. The data bellow shows a comparison of live vs test hit rolls before enhancements. With and Without supremacy. The last two charts show how much +acc (not +ToHit) is needed to reach the 95% ceiling. In every situation, the henchmen have higher final hit chances than live. I can understand wanting more, but as a baseline, we are trying to handle this conversion without high buffs. We will likely adjust things further during the beta window, but major buffs beyond these are likely to come in a follow-up Panel release.

 

Note: still need to look at the reported proc damage tables, so far the reported numbers don't sound to be adhering to the intended goals. 

"Slightly better than live" is totally fine when comparing with existing content, but I think the main problem is in the new difficulty levels. Having to get 286% increased accuracy to softcap your T1 henchmen against +4 enemies is insane, that's over 100% more than you need on live for +3.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Note:

Proc Damage tables on T3 pets are broken. 

Other pets are working as intended. 

 

	Fiery	Ember	Prince
	Claw Rake	Fire Blast	Ice Blast
Test
	T1	T2	T3
+0	19.65	31.53
+1	17.68	28.38
+2	15.72	25.22
+3	12.77	20.49	15.42
+4	9.43	15.13	11.39
+5	5.89	9.45
Live
	T1	T2	T3
+0	34.06	38.43	70.24
+1	27.67	34.16	63.22
+2	20.43	27.75	56.19
+3	12.77	20.49	45.65
+4	6.38	12.8	33.71
+5	n/a	n/a	n/a