Listen to Feedback: Sonic Melee Not Ready

[Wravis]

This is ridiculous.

Deleting posts that criticize your unwillingness to listen to feedback is ridiculous. 

Fast-tracking your powerset through closed beta, then open beta, while ignoring the overwhelmingly negative feedback, is a bad look.

Putting out a powerset with the disclaimer "we'll fix it later" is nuts. Why push it out if you know it's not working well?

It's okay to postpone the release of things when they aren't working.

Edited yesterday at 01:20 AM by Wravis

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Your post was hidden because it did not belong in focused feedback and, as I have already discussed with you, listening to feedback is not the same thing as making whatever change or changes any player or group of players is asking for.

 

Just about everything new gets changed based on player feedback.

 

These types of complaints typically will not result in getting anything changed.

 

If you want to effect change, try the content.  Tell us why you like it or dislike it.  Provide data to back up your position.

 

But you go on and tilt at your windmill of "Homecoming doesn't listen to feedback."

[Wravis]

1 minute ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Your post was hidden because it did not belong in focused feedback and, as I have already discussed with you, listening to feedback is not the same thing as making whatever change or changes any player or group of players is asking for.

 

Just about everything new gets changed based on player feedback.

 

These types of complaints typically will not result in getting anything changed.

 

If you want to effect change, try the content.  Tell us why you like it or dislike it.  Provide data to back up your position.

 

But you go on and tilt at your windmill of "Homecoming doesn't listen to feedback."

That's not what happened at all.

I listed my complaints. I compiled a list of the same complaints given by other testers. They were the common sentiment. Those same complaints were echoed throughout all of the (very short) testing period. 

You got focused on me saying "they don't listen to feedback" and tried to dismiss the criticism with semantics of "we listen to other feedback" when I was clearly discussing the feedback about Sonic Melee, and Attune specifically. 
 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

I invite everyone to read the thread you linked, especially our discussion, and make up their own minds.

[Troo]

6 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Just about everything new gets changed based on player feedback.

 

eh... So long as that feedback is super early, visceral, and doesn't run contrary to the designers vision.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Note I am not saying feedback is not welcomed, we are still looking at design feedback and it will be considered for the first post-launch update.

Emphasis added. 

 

[Wravis]

3 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

I invite everyone to read the thread you linked, especially our discussion, and make up their own minds.

I invite everyone to check it out, see you saying "we listen" and then be followed up by your co-dev saying "we're done listening" the next page.

It was two weeks of testing. One in closed beta. One in open. How much listening could you have actually done? You're not fooling anyone.

[Wravis]

3 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Emphasis added. 

 

What are you emphasizing that for?

"We're releasing it in an unpopular, bad state. We'll fix it later." Is a terrible development philosophy.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

and doesn't run contrary to the designers vision

 

Look.  If you spent weeks to months coming up with ideas, coding them, finding bugs, recoding them, sharing them with others, more recoding, etc., I don't think it is reasonable for that developer to drop everything completely and go with your (generic your, not you Troo) vision of how it should be. 

 

But sometimes they HAVE done that.  Not always, maybe not even frequently, but they have completely abandoned ideas based on feedback, and more often make some changes.

[LightMaster]

Wravis does make a point on devs needing to pay more attention to feedback.

 

But if the feedback is presented in an aggressive tone, or if disagreeing with what the others said without proving it? Then we run into a problem of aggressive feedback that can put far more stress to the devs than they already got.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

1 hour ago, Wravis said:

I invite everyone to check it out, see you saying "we listen" and then be followed up by your co-dev saying "we're done listening" the next page.

 

You should stop stating things that are obviously and provably false.  The quote above shows that CPH is still welcoming feedback and anticipates additional changes.

 

Sometimes the boss tells you to stop making changes, so you stop making changes for now and fix it later.

 

PS - Technicality.  But CPH is a Dev.  I am a GM.  I don't code and she doesn't moderate, generic, or help folks get unstuck in game.

Edited 23 hours ago by GM_GooglyMoogly

[Wravis]

8 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 

You should stop stating things that are obviously and provably false.  The quote above shows that CPC is still welcoming feedback and anticipates additional changes.

 

Sometimes the boss tells you to stop making changes, so you stop making changes for now and fix it later.

You should read everything I'm saying and not just fixate on the things you think you can hit me with a 'gotcha' to shut me down.

One of my pieces of feedback in this thread is that a design philosophy of "we're not taking your feedback now because we need to release this, we'll fix it later" is terrible. 
 

8 minutes ago, LightMaster said:

Wravis does make a point on devs needing to pay more attention to feedback.

 

But if the feedback is presented in an aggressive tone, or if disagreeing with what the others said without proving it? Then we run into a problem of aggressive feedback that can put far more stress to the devs than they already got.

I got aggressive because people are being ignored. And then told they are not being ignored.

Getting feedback that is consistently saying "this thing is not good" and having it not be addressed, and sped through to the next phase, and then getting the SAME feedback, and speeding it through to release, IS ignoring feedback.

It does NOT mean they never listen to any feedback ever. But it's ignoring feedback.

Edited yesterday at 02:03 AM by Wravis

[Troo]

Don't get me wrong, staff and "developers" are volunteers. I appreciate their efforts to keep the game running.

 

Communication has always been an area that could use improvement.

Taking criticism.. the team is pretty good at this and has said they would appreciate it if it could at least be constructive criticism.

Keeping white-knights in check, well that's where things typically go off the rails in open beta.

 

Sonic Melee - Play it with the following disclaimer: "It will change after release, invest your time accordingly".

 

 

The Homecoming Team

They do listen, but just don't always agree. That can be frustrating and it's okay.

I appreciate being able to play as a community and absolutely appreciate the team dealing with all of the non-game bullshit that comes with an online product, message boards, and wikis. (hackers, spammers, dupers, and all the lame stuff the internet enables)

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

21 hours ago, Wravis said:

You should read everything I'm saying - I am

and not just fixate on the things you think you can hit me with a 'gotcha' to shut me down. I am not.

 

Words have meanings.  The statement I quoted was you stating as fact, and a quote even, that "we're done listening."  That's not at all what she said.  She said the opposite of that.  Your statement is obviously and provably false.  You should stop doing that.  As far as ignoring you . . . I think I will ignore you . . . at least for the rest of tonight.

Edited 3 hours ago by GM_GooglyMoogly

[Wravis]

14 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 

Words have meanings.  The statement I quoted was you stating as fact, and a quote even, that "we're done listening."  That's not at all what he said.  He said the opposite of that.  Your statement is obviously and provably false.  You should stop doing that.  As far as ignoring you . . . I think I will ignore you . . . at least for the rest of tonight.

Optics are important. When we're told "give feedback, I swear we're listening" and then the same day we're told "feedback's done for now, we'll get back to it at a later time", it reads like "this is done now. No more reason to give feedback".

And it especially stings when the feedback period was so short, and the feedback given was the same sentiment throughout.

Edited yesterday at 02:22 AM by Wravis

[Captain Powerhouse]

41 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

But CPC is a Dev.

 

Whomever CPC is, could use their help with some bugs!!!

 

17 minutes ago, Wravis said:

Optics are important. When we're told "give feedback, I swear we're listening" and then the same day we're told "feedback's done for now, we'll get back to it at a later time", it reads like "this is done now. No more reason to give feedback".

 

Not taking your demand on a particular thing in the set does not mean we don't listen. You need to separate "you did not agree with me" from "you don't listen".

 

For one, I literally said to keep the feedback coming. There will be more changes in the post-launch update. Does that mean changing the toggle thing? Maybe, maybe not. Mostly depends on what potential new engine tech can be added, or what unused techniques can be leveraged to get the desired results. You turn a blind eye to it, but some players have enjoyed the core idea and have provided positive reactions after the multiple iterations to improve on it.

The most negative reaction was on Attune's own strength being boosted by the T1 and T2, or the boost to other powers also requiring their use. That has been entirely removed. Attune itself is now a single click unlock for the set's mechanics. A toggle Disintegrate that you only need to click once if you will. It being a toggle allows for a smoother interaction between the power and Fury and other AT inherent abilities like team crit bonuses on stalkers or crit fluctuations from whatever source on a scrapper. It also allows for procs to potentially passively trigger every 10s, and prevents the need to be regularly spamming an attack to re-establish the set's mechanic on a hard target. 

 

These are things that simply can't happen on a click mechanic driver.

 

Although there are still some dislike on toggles in general, the main issues have been addressed (visual feedback, cooldown after shutdown, shutdown due to moving too far, etc). 

You personally don't need to love every set. We are never going to make every set be loved by everyone. We do push for some minimum and maximum performance levels, but the playstyle to get there is not going to be the same for every set. We will aim to broaden a set's appeal as much as we can, so long it does not sacrifice set uniqueness in the process.

 

As for the feature lock: a lot of the team have families and, well, lives. Thanksgiving is coming in the US, as well as many holidays globally. Update cycles [to live] become nearly impossible for that period. We might still have continued open beta development happen, although likely at a slower iteration pace since, as I just noted: people will be taking time to spend with their families.

 

There will continue to likely be updates to the last minute, but these will be exclusively bug fixes and minor numeric adjustments. Not mechanics changes. The overall set performance might still increase, as well as attempts at fixing any bug that is found.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

8 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Whomever CPC is, could use their help with some bugs!!!

 

Oops!  Fixed.

[Wravis]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Whomever CPC is, could use their help with some bugs!!!

 

 

Not taking your demand on a particular thing in the set does not mean we don't listen. You need to separate "you did not agree with me" from "you don't listen".

 

Every page of feedback on the Focused Feedback thread, and nearly every person giving feedback on attune on Discord, stated that attune is an awkward, clunky feature, that, at best, is something they'll skip or suffer with, at worst, makes people not want to play the set at all. It's not about you disagreeing with me. It's everyone echoing the same sentiment.

  

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

For one, I literally said to keep the feedback coming. There will be more changes in the post-launch update. Does that mean changing the toggle thing? Maybe, maybe not. Mostly depends on what potential new engine tech can be added, or what unused techniques can be leveraged to get the desired results.

Telling us to keep the feedback coming, after stating "we're pushing this through, no big changes will be made" is very contradictory. Especially given how rushed through the set was, compared to everything else that was being tested. It's hard to trust that any feedback will be considered, when this set was so rushed out the door. One week of closed beta. One week of open beta. Two weeks of you refusing to consider that maybe Attune as a feature is not working out. You stated you have a vision for the set, and dug your heels in.

  

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

You turn a blind eye to it, but some players have enjoyed the core idea and have provided positive reactions after the multiple iterations to improve on it.

 

You turn a blind eye to the MAJORITY of players stating the opposite. It's easy to ignore the negative feedback and latch on the positive. This is your creation. You want to see the positive. It's hard to hear that people don't like something you made. But if you're going to claim "some players have enjoyed it" to dismiss the overwhelming majority, you need to reevaluate how you handle feedback.

  

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The most negative reaction was on Attune's own strength being boosted by the T1 and T2, or the boost to other powers also requiring their use. That has been entirely removed. Attune itself is now a single click unlock for the set's mechanics. A toggle Disintegrate that you only need to click once if you will. It being a toggle allows for a smoother interaction between the power and Fury and other AT inherent abilities like team crit bonuses on stalkers or crit fluctuations from whatever source on a scrapper. It also allows for procs to potentially passively trigger every 10s, and prevents the need to be regularly spamming an attack to re-establish the set's mechanic on a hard target. 

 

These are things that simply can't happen on a click mechanic driver.

 

Although there are still some dislike on toggles in general, the main issues have been addressed (visual feedback, cooldown after shutdown, shutdown due to moving too far, etc). 

You personally don't need to love every set. We are never going to make every set be loved by everyone.

No. You have it reversed. Most of the negative reactions were about how awkward it is to have a single target toggle power in a melee set. It doesn't work well. It doesn't feel good to play. It makes for a bad level up experience.

  
And if your desired feature doesn't work well due to game limitations, it's time to consider a new feature that does work, instead of forcing a bad one through.

  

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

We do push for some minimum and maximum performance levels, but the playstyle to get there is not going to be the same for every set. We will aim to broaden a set's appeal as much as we can, so long it does not sacrifice set uniqueness in the process.

This is the sentiment that makes it feel like you do not listen as a consistent pattern, and not just regarding Sonic Melee, and attune.

This is the same sentiment you used to defend how awful Storm Blast felt to play. You were so proud of your ramp up design. The storm building. Even though the majority of players who tested it said it felt bad to play in groups, because it took too long and was too stationary.  But you refused to budge on the grounds that "it makes the set unique". 

Being unique made it not fun. And you went back and changed it to make things mobile, and reduce the ramp up, because it turns out all of those people who said it felt bad to play were right.

   

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

As for the feature lock: a lot of the team have families and, well, lives. Thanksgiving is coming in the US, as well as many holidays globally. Update cycles [to live] become nearly impossible for that period. We might still have continued open beta development happen, although likely at a slower iteration pace since, as I just noted: people will be taking time to spend with their families.

Why did you push this set through so rapidly if you knew there was a short deadline? Why not wait to test it out for the next patch? The way it was handled makes it seem like you never had any intention of considering feature changes. One week of closed and one week of open beta testing? When other sets spent months being worked on and tested. 

If you needed it to be ready by the end of November, you should have started testing it when the other sets were starting testing. 

Edited 22 hours ago by Wravis

[Captain Powerhouse]

Yikes… been decades since I seen one of these high school style line by line replies. 
 

7 hours ago, Wravis said:

Every page of feedback on the Focused Feedback thread, and nearly every person giving feedback on attune on Discord, stated that attune is an awkward

If you actually follow the feed back, you will see that many of these opinions have shifted alongside the adjustments, because we listened and adjusted based on feedback. Something you refuse to acknowledge.

 

Oh, btw, storm blast was not my project so I never said anything about it. 
 

Everything else I already answered and you dismissed. Do hope some of the future sets in the queue are more in your wheelhouse. 
 

Have a good one, and happy holidays.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

@Wravis, have you actually tried Sonic Melee on the test server?

 

And if so, when?  Because it has gone through several changes.

[Ukase]

I say this as nicely as I know how. 

How about we simply give our feedback? And once we do, we test other stuff? 

As a non-dev/gm, I know the only way I can sway someone is with some data points to review and perhaps some compelling argument. Not really my wheelhouse, but we can still present information as clearly as we can and not waste time revisiting something we've already given feedback on, unless we've got additional data points to reference. 

 

It was either Dale Carnegie, or Will Rogers Jr. who said, "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion, still". In other words, if the feedback isn't taken to heart, it doesn't mean you didn't try. It just means that either no decision has been made, or they didn't see it the way you did. Doesn't make people inherently evil or wrong. Just of a different mind. 

Please stop the arguing. It's not doing anything, and it certainly isn't going to get anyone to reevaluate their position. Well, at least it's not likely to do that. Holidays are coming up and it's time to think about gratitude and practice it. 

[Wravis]

21 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

@Wravis, have you actually tried Sonic Melee on the test server?

 

And if so, when?  Because it has gone through several changes.

I have, yes. Several redacted days during closed, and the first two days of open, and then again yesterday, and some more today. What I see, I feel, is a bandage over a broken bone. It's a patch up that doesn't fix the underlying issue. 

That said...  I'd go back through all of my posts and try to edit my tone to be less hostile if I could, but at this point it'd be pointless because I've already gotten on the nerves of the people who were meant to see my feedback.

If you can/would like to hide/delete this thread, that'd be ideal. But you can also leave it up so people can reference it when they want to point out how not to interact with the GM/Dev team.

Either way, some time in the near future I'll probably write a hopefully much more polite feedback post, to give my suggestions for what I feel is an ongoing issue regarding feedback and decision making. I'll wait until I'm less frustrated by my interactions during this testing period.
 

[Championess]

I'll say they do a real good job of combing through a lot of whinging in those threads to find actionable feedback.  I honestly am hard pressed to find feedback on sticky subjects they haven't considered with multiple tweaks.  Even as recently as the tanker and plant 'nerfs' I'd still find it hard to find they haven't acquiesced to the mob a good deal, even when its things they have a clear intention to tune down that need it.

 

I'm glad this cycle seems it got to open beta faster since the most requested changes/tweaks/bugs come from those not in closed beta.

Edited 3 hours ago by Championess

[Snarky]

they did not listen on the rewrite of Black Hole...

 

look, the CoH Homecoming team is great.  to a point.  (in my opinion) when they decide to do something they really only listen for echo chamber sentiments.  anything contrary to the pre made decisions is noted, filed, and forgotten.

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

I will echo @Snarky's sentiment.  I would also suggest, those that do not like the new melee set to simply not play it.