page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Super Strength Adjustments

[Eirei07]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

Have you tested either of these characters with the changes? I'm especially curious if UM will actually give you faster clear times.

As a disclaimer, I haven’t done any rigorous testing by comparing the two builds in the same map, and doing repeat runs etc.

 

But I did early on port my SS/Fire over to test server, and quick respec to get UM and Hand Clap, leaving the rest of the build largely untouched. The testing I did does show a much smoother run without the dmg & fire def crash, no need to use resources (insp & temp powers) to mitigate the crash, so I can chug reds all the time.
 

Also, my SS powers are hitting much harder with UM, including Hand Clap which has a great cone AOE range. Double stack Rage might give me occasional peaks of high performance, but with UM it’s constant good performance plus extra high damage cap over Rage  from chugging reds.

 

Same with the SS/Invul. I personally only used Energy Torrent as my Epic attack, so I’m not hugely benefitting from Rage magnifying my Epics. And changing over to UM and having a better AOE attack in Hand Clap, I see similar benefits, and the toon deleting mobs quicker than before.

Edited December 19 by Eirei07

[Erratic1]

30 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

I think that the people complaining "We shouldn't change the rage crash to penalize defense and resistance equally" are making a very bad argument. I think that if Rage is an option is should be viable for both defensive and resistance builds. I believe you can make the argument "Rage is good as it is now" or "The crash is awful" but trying to argue both doesn't work.

 

Is it easier to overcap defense, particularly positional defense, than it is to overcap S/L/F/C/E/N resistance (will give you T/P as hard regardless)? 

[Steampunkette]

Hybrid sets kinda sorta don't exist for the purposes of this stuff?

 

Bio Armor and Willpower are the "Hybrid" sets that have Defense and Resistance. But they also specifically don't overlap too much on their defenses and resistances.

 

They're both S/L Resist, Energy/Element Defense. With Bio getting Toxic Resist and Willpower getting Psionic Resist.

 

Unless their enemies are hitting them with every damage type (hint, they won't be), they'll be -less- affected by the debuff than a Defense or Resistance character since they actually rely, mostly, on Regeneration and Self-Healing. 

 

Meanwhile Regen, with no defense or resistance to speak of, is in the same boat.

 

 

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Unless their enemies are hitting them with every damage type (hint, they won't be), they'll be -less- affected by the debuff than a Defense or Resistance character since they actually rely, mostly, on Regeneration and Self-Healing. 

 

That a claim. Kind of ignores that they do not, in their mix, cap a defense here and a resistance there but rather typically have a mix non-maxed value defenses and resistances. But it is a claim.

[Steampunkette]

Just now, Erratic1 said:

 

That a claim. Kind of ignores that they do not, in their mix, cap a defense here and a resistance there but rather typically have a mix non-maxed value defenses and resistances. But it is a claim.

For the defense or resist they cap, here or there, they'll face the same 260% increased damage for that specific damage type as any Defense character with that type softcapped or Resist character with that type hardcapped.

 

It's only if they cap Resistance -and- Defense to a given damage type that them being "Hybrid" matters. Because then they're taking 260% increase on Defense and 260% increase on Resist.

 

But at that point they're going from taking 1% of incoming damage to taking 6.2% of incoming damage. So. Y'know... lots more damage but still a drop in the bucket.

[Eirei07]

Devs need to factor in Regen in the crash! Equity for all!

[Wavicle]

Yeah, every time somebody says something like “my tanker will be taking 300% more damage” I have to laugh, because your tanker is taking almost nothing right now so 3 times that is still almost nothing.

[BrandX]

10 minutes ago, Eirei07 said:

Devs need to factor in Regen in the crash! Equity for all!

 

Don't they get hit more and also hit for more?

[Major_Decoy]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Yeah, every time somebody says something like “my tanker will be taking 300% more damage” I have to laugh, because your tanker is taking almost nothing right now so 3 times that is still almost nothing.

A tank with exactly 45% defense and 90% resistance will take 2400% more damage during the crash.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Major_Decoy said:

A tank with exactly 45% defense and 90% resistance will take 2400% more damage during the crash.

Sure, but a tank with 45% defense and 90% resistance is taking almost no damage at all. So it doesn’t mean very much.

[Steampunkette]

2 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

A tank with exactly 45% defense and 90% resistance will take 2400% more damage during the crash.

I would -love- to know you're math on that.

[Eirei07]

13 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Don't they get hit more and also hit for more?

I was meme-ing in that post, but of course Regen will be hit as well since they usually have a decent Res to accompany their main survival method, being Hp and regen, which are untouched btw. From what I know of Regen builds, they don’t pack much def to begin with, so they’re largely are not as affected by the def crash.

I’m just here to annoy anyone trying to argue that the Rage change is about fairness.

Edited December 19 by Eirei07

[BrandX]

7 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

A tank with exactly 45% defense and 90% resistance will take 2400% more damage during the crash.

 

So, they'll be as tough as a Scrapper for 10 seconds, while having more health and regen/heals to back them up?

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Sure, but a tank with 45% defense and 90% resistance is taking almost no damage at all. So it doesn’t mean very much.

 

At 45% defense and 90% resistance, they are taking 1/10th of 1/20th of the incoming potential damage (even level opponent), or 0.5%. 24 times that damage coming in is therefore 12%--effectively on par with having fully negated their defense value (i.e., set it to 0%), or not only having fully negated their resistance, but making it so they take double damage from being hit.

 

Hits coming in for 5000 damage will go from doing 25 on average to 600. 

 

Oh, and status effects will land more often.

[Major_Decoy]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

I would -love- to know you're math on that.

 

A tank with 45% defense will get hit 5% of the time. If they have 90% resistance, they will take 10% of the damage. 100 hits of 100 damage becomes 5 hits of 10 damage. 50 damage

 

With the crash, 45% goes to 35%, they will get hit 15% of the time. 90% resistance goes to 70%, they will take 30% of the damage. 100 hits of 100 damage because 15 hits of 30 damage. 450 damage.

 

450-50 = 400/50 = 800% more damage... Did I get an extra factor of three in there somewhere?

[Wavicle]

8×.5% is 4%. I think you’ll live.

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Eirei07 said:

I was meme-ing in that post, but of course Regen will be hit as well since they usually have a decent Res to accompany their main survival method, being Hp and regen, which are untouched. From what I know of Regen builds, they don’t pack much def to begin with, so they’re largely are not as affected by the def crash.

I’m just here to annoy anyone trying to argue that the Rage change is about fairness.

 

My level 50 Regen Tanker has 3.125% Melee Defense...and that is it.

 

Clearly he is skating in terms of Def crash (well, if he were SS and not FM) and so Regen needs to be nerfed next. It is only fair.

[ScarySai]

9 hours ago, Maelwys said:

However Claws is similarly "resistant to ToHit" (if having superfluous amounts of ToHit equates to being "resistant to Tohit debuffs")... yet it's coming in 4 places behind SS on the Brute times and 5 places behind it on the Tanker times.

 

1: Savage, claws and martial should be performing well above ss for brutes with the changes coming up, as they already beat SS for tanks.

 

2: Trapdoor overvalued smashing damage, as more than half of the mobs were robots, and warwolf spawns made lethal damage dubious.

[Major_Decoy]

4 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

So, they'll be as tough as a Scrapper for 10 seconds, while having more health and regen/heals to back them up?

Yeah, the only thing the "more damage" really shows is that "the less damage you're taking to begin with, the larger an increase seems mathematically"

 

Going from 1 to 2 is a 100% increase but going from 4 to 5 is only a 25% increase and it's the same amount more.

[Psi-bolt]

1 hour ago, Eirei07 said:

That’s already been debunked. It might make it somewhat better for pure def sets, it still arguably hits them harder than Res sets. And you’re ignoring hybrid sets, and regen who is quietly sitting in the sidelines trying not to attract attention to themselves.

Regen has ~19% resists (16% for Brutes) to all

from Resilience.  They actually lose all their passive resistance from this change.   So you just leave Regen alone! 😡

[Erratic1]

9 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

Yeah, the only thing the "more damage" really shows is that "the less damage you're taking to begin with, the larger an increase seems mathematically"

 

Going from 1 to 2 is a 100% increase but going from 4 to 5 is only a 25% increase and it's the same amount more.

 

 

Pretty sure the average worker winning $10,000 dollars sees it as more meaningful than say Jeff Bezos winning $10,000. Same amount can mean radically different things depending on circumstances.

Edited December 19 by Erratic1
typo

[Major_Decoy]

5 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Pretty the average worker winning $10,000 dollars sees it as more meaningful than say Jeff Bezos winning $10,000. Same amount can mean radically different things depending on circumstances.

 

Yes, context is everything, but this is an awful comparison. You'd be better off talking about traffic fines and saying "The average worker has a harder time paying a 200 dollar fine than Jeff Bezos does" because then you'd get a clear metaphor between the difficulty some resistance set has building up to go over the cap than a defense set does. "It's so much easier to get defense buffs from leadership, set bonuses, and support powers. One crab spider can entirely negate a -20% defense rage crash"

[Steampunkette]

46 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

A tank with 45% defense will get hit 5% of the time. If they have 90% resistance, they will take 10% of the damage. 100 hits of 100 damage becomes 5 hits of 10 damage. 50 damage

 

With the crash, 45% goes to 35%, they will get hit 15% of the time. 90% resistance goes to 70%, they will take 30% of the damage. 100 hits of 100 damage because 15 hits of 30 damage. 450 damage.

 

450-50 = 400/50 = 800% more damage... Did I get an extra factor of three in there somewhere?

You did, yeah. 800% is correct.

 

So instead of taking 1% of all incoming damage that has a chance to hit, they'll take 9% of all incoming damage that has a chance to hit.

[Steampunkette]

To clarify:

 

If you have 90% Resistance you're only taking 10% of the damage that has a chance to land. Otherwise you're taking 5% of all incoming damage.

 

Because even with Resistance and 0 Defense buffs, 50% of incoming attacks miss (modified by level differences, ToHit Mods, and Defense Buffs).

 

So with 90% Resistance and 45% Defense you're taking 1% of all incoming damage that rolls above a 50 on the ToHit check. Anything that rolled lower than that wasn't going to hit you, anyway.

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

You did, yeah. 800% is correct.

 

So instead of taking 1% of all incoming damage that has a chance to hit, they'll take 9% of all incoming damage that has a chance to hit.

 

Think it's 8%, no? We aren't adding an additional 800% of current, we're multiplying current by 8. Am I mistaken?