page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Fiery Aura Adjustments

[The Curator]

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Fiery Aura

• Quote

  Design Notes
  After it's last revamp, we still feel the set has some rough edges that can be improved. Although these changes are not likely to change min-max players minds about the set, we do think they will polish what was done in the last round. We are focusing these changes on Burn, Temp Protection and Phoenix Rising. We are looking at giving Burn a bit of a boost by increasing it's target cap and radius for the bulk of its damage. We are also extending its immob protection to also cover Knockback. Phoenix Rising can now be used as an emergency heal at any time for full strength, detached from current HP levels. Finally, Phoenix Rising will leave the player with increased hit points for a short period of time.

   

• Burn
  • Increased Radius of up-front effect from 8ft to 15ft
  • Scale 0.44 damage only apply within 8ft
  • Scale 1 damage applies to the entire area
  • Patch remains at 8ft radius
  • Increased target cap of up-front effect from 5 to 10
  • Burn now grants the caster KB protection in addition to immob protection
• Temperature Protection
  • Now adds 50% knockback resistance
• Consume
  • 15% Max HP buff now requires a target, duration reduced from 120s to 45s
  • Power can now grant a small 1.5% Max Hp buff for each foe affected, up to a max of +15% max HP for 45s
  • Stacking set to refresh (a single foe hit will refresh all stacks)
  • Adaptive recharge has been implemented
  • 5 seconds recharge base, +5.5s per target hit, max of 60s recharge
• Phoenix Rising
  • Power now heals applies a flat heal and endurance recovery buff regardless of the caster health
  • Power now applies a 30% Max HP buff for 30 seconds regardless if used conscious or as a rez.

[FupDup]

My only complaint is that I think the KB protection should go into Temp Protection, like most other armor sets are set up. The other Burn buffs already make the power very desirable to have. It's definitely not getting skipped if that protection goes in a normal place (skipping it now is already silly). 

[Super Atom]

I can live with it in burn or temp protect, if it means nerfing burn other than moving it to temp protect I'd rather leave it in there.

[bAss_ackwards]

• Burn
  • Definitely a high value power now, however...
  • The Knockback Protection is in a bit of an awkward situation at the moment. At the start of a mission (and/or if you're taking breaks) you will need to pre-cast Burn to give yourself a good amount of KB prot before you begin wading into groups of enemies. This is only a minor issue as both duration is long and recharge can be reduced quite a bit, but still does give this power an odd dynamic.
  • Like others have suggested, perhaps transfer all or spread some of the KB prot from Burn to Temperature Protection.
• Consume
  • This is great right now. The only feedback I have at the moment is if we could get a highlight ring to indicate the stack is about to be lost and needs a recharge.
• Phoenix Rising
  • The +HP component is great for getting you "back in the fight" if you've been downed.
  • Getting more +HP when alive however, is less valuable especially since you cannot use the power unless you're 75% or less on HP. I would suggest that the use while alive gives a burst of high regeneration to sustain you from whatever bad situation you needed to pop this T9 for.

[CaffieneNirvana]

As a long-time fan of Fiery Aura... Can you please revert those changes to Consume? If Consume Psyche/Devour Psyche has taught me anything, I REALLY dislike having an attention tax on my armor sets like that. One of the best things about Consume was that its max HP buff was fire and forget thanks to its long duration, no pun intended; it was easy to manage, not hard to perma (and note I never take Hasten besides), and with how I slot my characters using it for Endurance was just a nice tertiary benefit.

 

Adaptive Recharge can be a cool idea, but so far when it's applied to armor sets, and comes with stacks that all refresh every pop, it just becomes an attention tax to me, like I mentioned. That's why the indicators on Psi Armor's two examples of it aren't going to really turn me around on that set, sadly; the powers will still feel like they recharge too fast, last too briefly, and I will be punished if I let them drop, which is especially a problem with the one that's enemy-dependent like Consume would become. I appreciate the effort here, but Consume functions well as a survival tool as is. I like armor sets to be more flexible, or even 'fire and forget' with their clickables. Plus, the regular recharge made Consume a nice place to put ATOs, which Adaptive Recharge will negatively impact.

 

I will say that I feel like if you want to reduce its duration/recharge some, to increase its viability as an endurance recovery power, that's certainly doable. I did notice you're tweaking it to be more in line with Energy Aura or Ice Armor's endurance management powers. And if the plan is to make Energy Drain or Energy Absorption also Adaptive Recharge, could that concept be revisited and discussed? The dependable/consistent recharge can very much assist survivability but also end management, and helps you 'pace' yourself and get into a rhythm, whereas Adaptive just feels irregular and awkward.

 

And while I'm at it... While this doesn't affect Fiery Aura, I DO wish those other armor set t9s at least could last a minute. It's not much of a panic button if it's 30~45s. I for one never minded the 'long duration but with a crash' mechanic... If you're counting on using those to boost your Resistance/Defense then you need them to be reliable and with some longevity.

Edited Monday at 07:25 AM by CaffieneNirvana
Phrasing Overhaul

[Frosticus]

I like most everything, while I have no issues with consume spam it sure could use a trim to its animation.

[Shin Magmus]

   In-game text on Consume implies every aspect of the power requires a ToHit check and every aspect of the power only occurs under Fiery Embrace.  Since this is clearly erroneous, doublecheck the text on Consume across all 5 Fiery Aura ATs.  Additionally, I want a dev to just tell me what aspects of Consume are intended to be autohit.

 

   Consume won't let me slot Accurate Healing sets, so the HP component better be autohit, otherwise I'm being handicapped and unable to slot efficient Acc/Heal pieces.

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, CaffieneNirvana said:

As a long-time fan of Fiery Aura... Can you please revert those changes to Consume? If Consume Psyche/Devour Psyche has taught me anything, I REALLY dislike having an attention tax on my armor sets like that. One of the best things about Consume was that its max HP buff was fire and forget thanks to its long duration, no pun intended; it was easy to manage, not hard to perma (and note I never take Hasten besides), and with how I slot my characters using it for Endurance was just a nice tertiary benefit.

 

Adaptive Recharge can be a cool idea, but so far when it's applied to armor sets, and comes with stacks that all refresh every pop, it just becomes an attention tax to me, like I mentioned. That's why the indicators on Psi Armor's two examples of it aren't going to really turn me around on that set, sadly; the powers will still feel like they recharge too fast, last too briefly, and I will be punished if I let them drop, which is especially a problem with the one that's enemy-dependent like Consume would become. I appreciate the effort here, but Consume functions well as a survival tool as is. I like armor sets to be more flexible, or even 'fire and forget' with their clickables. Plus, the regular recharge made Consume a nice place to put ATOs, which Adaptive Recharge will negatively impact.

 

Not trying to change your mind on this, but just want to say that Fire Armor doesn't benefit greatly from the +HP since it doesn't have a lot of regen attached to it. So there isn't exactly a great incentive to keep the +HP rolling.

 

With Psi Armor it's different since the set has a ton of regen and survives on it. Then both keeping a regen buff, or an HP buff (that is ultimately a regen buff) is more important since it's playing on the set's mechanics.

 

The +HP on Fire Armor truly is just a bonus adding some survival and while I'm not going to dictate how you should play I'd say that just using Consume when desired is not going to make a difference.

 

 

Of course I *did* ask for the +HP to be moved to Healing Flames when this first came out but it must have been too on the nose.

[CaffieneNirvana]

5 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

Not trying to change your mind on this, but just want to say that Fire Armor doesn't benefit greatly from the +HP since it doesn't have a lot of regen attached to it. So there isn't exactly a great incentive to keep the +HP rolling.

 

With Psi Armor it's different since the set has a ton of regen and survives on it. Then both keeping a regen buff, or an HP buff (that is ultimately a regen buff) is more important since it's playing on the set's mechanics.

 

The +HP on Fire Armor truly is just a bonus adding some survival and while I'm not going to dictate how you should play I'd say that just using Consume when desired is not going to make a difference.

 

 

Of course I *did* ask for the +HP to be moved to Healing Flames when this first came out but it must have been too on the nose.

That is a fair point. I'm just not the biggest fan of Adaptive Recharge being on my tools like this, due to the rhythm thing I mentioned. (It works much better on the mez powers, for me, since there it comes in CLUTCH for helping Hold magnitudes overcome EB and AV protection. It effectively adapts to and contributes to a situation there, and gives a new approach to it, as opposed to low key feeling like it's trying to control how you approach a power. Though this wouldn't be AS bad as Consume/Devour Psyche, since, as you pointed out, it wouldn't be as crucial as that is to Psi Armor.)

 

That's why I said if nothing else, if they just make it have the same duration and fixed recharge of Energy Drain or Energy Absorption, which seems to be what the max recharge would be for it anyway, I'd be more contented with it over all.

 

Not gonna lie though, I would love your idea down to the ground too. XD It would be a great middle ground to me.

 

Edit 2: Actually, what would be SUPER nice is if they would add an option to Null to DISABLE Adaptive Recharge. That'd shut me up quite nicely, and I'd be intrigued to try it to see if it makes Psi Armor more fun for me too...

Edited Monday at 05:02 PM by CaffieneNirvana
Slight clarification added

[KittyEater88]

8 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

   In-game text on Consume implies every aspect of the power requires a ToHit check and every aspect of the power only occurs under Fiery Embrace.  Since this is clearly erroneous, doublecheck the text on Consume across all 5 Fiery Aura ATs.  Additionally, I want a dev to just tell me what aspects of Consume are intended to be autohit.

 

   Consume won't let me slot Accurate Healing sets, so the HP component better be autohit, otherwise I'm being handicapped and unable to slot efficient Acc/Heal pieces.

I just tested this as I had the same concern. It seems the only portion actually checking is the damage, which also extends to interface. The +Max HP, +End/End Resist, and +Recovery seem to be auto. With two Amylo's, I am capping Max HP at 9 stacks. The power description should be updated, as it does not state clearly how this power is working, and does not mention the +recovery buff at all.

Consume spam wasn't an issue for me as I am not using this power for the short lived 15 seconds of recovery, but the 45 second HP buff. It could have its animations trimmed, or at least the root removed, though. Having the HP buff require a target is slightly annoying, but Burn at least is applying it's KB protection out of combat, which will allow me to rebuild and drop significant KB IO investment. I don't rely on RoTP but the flat heal and HP bonus may help for when you aren't able to saturate Consume. And of course, Burn being somewhat unfucked makes me happy.

Edited Monday at 05:03 PM by KittyEater88

[Shin Magmus]

Amyloplasts OR 3-pc Numina's were the exact slotting configurations I was thinking about using, but I need to know that it will work.

[ItashuLead]

13 hours ago, CaffieneNirvana said:

Edit 2: Actually, what would be SUPER nice is if they would add an option to Null to DISABLE Adaptive Recharge. That'd shut me up quite nicely, and I'd be intrigued to try it to see if it makes Psi Armor more fun for me too...

 

Okay, I find that concept intriguing.  Personally, I think I'd prefer if you could select either an Adaptive Recharge version or regular version of a power, like how Rime and Hoarfrost work currently.  It might ALSO be easier to implement, but I'm not sure. It seems that the 'choose one or the other' powers have been released more lately.

 

I prefer Consume's current form because it gives me options for slotting.  On a Sent build I made recently, I was going for using the Sent +Absorb proc in it for extra survivability, and Fury of the Glad -Res for utility.  I like being able to slot fun procs into powers, and have them fire reliably.  Not to mention, not requiring a target for the Max HP was tremendous.  If I'm 'the tank' on a team, but actually a Sent, it is handy to be able to take the alpha of a mob at my best.

 

Across the board, I'm noticing a drop in duration of survivability clickies, with Consume now being no different.  So far mostly in Absorb clickies.  Between the different types of survivability clickies, Max HP being higher duration makes the most sense to me.  Absorb, when lost, is not actually losing you HP.  Loss of Max HP, in edge cases, could result in near-immediate death.  If it is to be an Adaptive Recharge power, please consider upping the duration, and increasing the recharge somewhat.

 

I do want to throw in here, also: I really like the other reworks to this set.  Burn looks really neat.  Phoenix's change is really nice, a little panic button.  And KB protection, THANK YOU.

Edited Tuesday at 01:05 AM by ItashuLead

[Uun]

Ran paper missions vs. Malta and CoT on my Fire/Fire tank set to +3/x6 (+1 lvl shift)

• Increased radius/target cap for Burn is very nice. KB protection is an interesting add but I would need to respec to take advantage of it as I already have mag 12 KB protection. It has a very healthy duration (100s) so I could see changing some slots.
• The KB resistance from Temperature Protection is very inconsistent (I tracked this on my Combat Monitor). There is no resistance (100% distance) without a target in range. There were numerous instances of the resistance failing to appear when I entered combat or dropping back to 100% distance after a few seconds while I was still in combat. I don't think I ever managed to get more than 20s uptime. It also appears to be stacking per target, as it was showing 1% distance (not 50% distance) when it was working.
• HP boost from Consume is very good. I've got 2,607 base HP including accolades and set bonuses before Consume. Slotted with about 69% in heal enhancements, I was frequently hitting the HP cap of 3,533.
• Did not test Phoenix Rising, but changes seem fine.

[drbuzzard]

I'm curious if people actually tested the tweaked consume. I cannot understand why people are upset with the changes since in practice they drastically lower the recharge which is what the power always needed to be good for actually refilling endurance. I did my usual 'beat up cimerorans on the wall' routine and I had consume available pretty much any time I needed it. I do not find that to be the case on HC live. I didn't pay attention to the HP boost at all. 

[CaffieneNirvana]

4 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

I'm curious if people actually tested the tweaked consume. I cannot understand why people are upset with the changes since in practice they drastically lower the recharge which is what the power always needed to be good for actually refilling endurance. I did my usual 'beat up cimerorans on the wall' routine and I had consume available pretty much any time I needed it. I do not find that to be the case on HC live. I didn't pay attention to the HP boost at all. 

The biggest problem with the changes, as I've seen and another user also mentioned, is when it comes to putting procs on Consume. Procs from Invention Origin sets have their chance of firing affected by both a power's native recharge, as well as any slotted recharge. (Procs per minute also factors in, but those two are the main concern some of us are having here.) The way I understand it, one of the biggest elephants in the room for Adaptive Recharge as a mechanic is, regardless of how you use it, proc chance will ALWAYS be calculated by the lowest possible amount of recharge, even if you use it on a full-sized mob. This alone tanks the probability, but then you'll likely add more recharge on top of that with slotting anyway. Assuming you have no choice not to slot at least some recharge on X set for Y bonus.

 

This results in powers losing a chunk of potential for personalization and/or theming, if not punishes certain builds for creative use of procs. For example, I loved using Avalanche in Consume to make it knock foes down. And while I've never tried this in Consume, a fond trick of mine with its contemporaries, Energy Drain and Energy Absorption, is to put the stun proc in them from the Energy Manipulator set. Fury of the Gladiator: Chance for Resistance debuff was also cited by said user, which is a really fun trick that adds versatility to Consume, and allows experimentation and customization for what each individual player might want out of it.

 

Notably, I feel like this was fine on Control powers. Because in a lot of ways, Adaptive Recharge feels like it was tailored for Controllers and Dominators over anything it's been given to since, ESPECIALLY when it comes to Mind Control on Trollers. And in those cases, it feels like it gives back about as much as it takes, if not moreso. But for powers like these, on armor sets, it winds up feeling like the opposite, and that's based on my own experience with it on armor sets thus far.

 

The developers can *absolutely* trim the recharge time of it down if they want, but I would vastly prefer if it was a fixed value. 60s would be fine, and still allow for proc shenanigans; with good slotting, even before any global recharge or Hasten add-ons, you could have it up quite reliably for every mob, and retain the best of both worlds, since with a base recharge of 60~75 seconds, even when slotted down to half that, the chances of procs firing will still be sufficient, if not plenty good. Or if it would be easier (and I know we keep asking for these more and more, I'm sorry devs), make two versions of the power; one that works the old way, one the new way.

[drbuzzard]

So making the power easier to use for its stated purpose has a penalty for using it for purposes which have nothing to do with the stated purpose is the problem. 

 

Good lord I'm glad I don't develop for this community. 

Edited 13 hours ago by drbuzzard

[drbuzzard]

I admit my phrasing is a bit convoluted, but so is the logic in question. 

[Maelwys]

17 hours ago, Uun said:

• HP boost from Consume is very good. I've got 2,607 base HP including accolades and set bonuses before Consume. Slotted with about 69% in heal enhancements, I was frequently hitting the HP cap of 3,533.

Even with my "Live" (zero Heal aspect) slotting in Consume, I'm still getting a hefty Chunk of +MaxHP; bringing my Brute from ~2126 to ~2607 (+481) with 10 stacks active.
On Live Consume brings them from ~1984 to ~2209 (+225).


 

Edited 11 hours ago by Maelwys

[Championess]

17 hours ago, CaffieneNirvana said:

Notably, I feel like this was fine on Control powers. Because in a lot of ways, Adaptive Recharge feels like it was tailored for Controllers and Dominators over anything it's been given to since, ESPECIALLY when it comes to Mind Control on Trollers. And in those cases, it feels like it gives back about as much as it takes, if not moreso. But for powers like these, on armor sets, it winds up feeling like the opposite, and that's based on my own experience with it on armor sets thus far.

 

 

This is pretty much my feeling on Adaptive Recharge with its introduction to control.  I didn't like losing all that proc value on my aoe hold but due to the versatility it added to instantly stopping some aggro around you without feeling you wasted a long recharging power it ultimately came off as a net benefit.  The only control proc I hated to lose so much value on was contagious since it was a nice extra layering of more confuse.

 

Adaptive I knew was going to creep into a lot more places to deter proccing.  It just made better sense on control and Psi Armor since it was introduced at the same time and it feels like a control armor anyways.  I like how it came out for those things but I don't like Adaptive as a cure-all wherever.

[ItashuLead]

Okay, so. Between the feedback of direct testers of the modified Consume and some notions / concerns about how Adaptive Recharge effects procs, we are all left wondering if we're talking about the same power.

 

We could be. Let's get some concepts out first. As stated earlier in this thread, Open Beta's Consume as an Adaptive Recharge power has a 'Base Recharge' of 5 seconds. In a power, Base Recharge is explicitly the Recharge of a power without any slotted Recharge or Global Recharge bonuses. Base Recharge is used in proc calculations to determine how often procs fire. So, fast Base Recharge = less procs.

 

Adaptive Recharge currently raises the Recharge per target hit, but the number it modifies is not the Base Recharge. It's a modifier laid on top. Additional time. What if it modified the Base Recharge instead?

 

Okay, as currently working on Open Beta, Consume's Base Recharge of 5 seconds gets 5.5 more seconds ADDED ON per target hit, to a maximum of 60 seconds. So if you hit 4 targets, that's 27 seconds Recharge.

 

If the Base Recharge is what gets modified instead, here's how that would work, hopefully:

 

Consume initially has a 60 second Base Recharge, as per the maximum possible by Adaptive Recharge. You cast Consume. Per Target hit, you gain Max HP and Recovery. You gain End. Hit Targets(from ToHit roll) take Damage. Procs potentially proc, based on 60 second Base Recharge. AND, per Target hit, Adaptive Recharge calculations happen the same way, EXCEPT, they SET the Base Recharge to that result. So if you hit 4 Targets with Consume, that's 27 seconds Base Recharge (5+(5.5 x 4)). Same calculation. So now, when you cast Consume again, Per Target hit, you gain Max HP and Recovery. You gain End. Hit Targets(from ToHit roll) take Damage. Procs potentially proc, based on 27 second Base Recharge. Say you hit 5 targets with Consume this time. Consume sets the Base Recharge to 32.5 seconds. And this would go on.

 

This doesn't make procs fire as the same rate as original, current Consume. But that's the point. If Recharge is scaling, proc rate MUST scale too to maintain balance.

[Championess]

That's not going to happen or they would have tried to massage it more when Adaptive Recharge was introduced to control.  They knew that the procs would fire off of only the base recharge value and couldn't recalibrate as it scaled upwards.  Control players were forwarned that's what it was going to be but they ultimately felt in development it would be a net benefit for those control powers even with flooring proc rates.  Which they were right. 

 

They would have tinkered a way for what you're asking long ago if they could have affected procs in a scaling way when the issue was raised on control.  Welcome to your proc exploit band-aid.

[Sovera]

I like Adaptive Recharge (AR). I have often mentioned how Consume or DNA Siphon were useless tools if used on a single enemy as they could not fulfill their function of either replinish endurance or heal. With AR they now can as the recharge adapts to the number of enemies. It's elegant.

 

The annoying thing is the pushback because people stuff these utility powers with damage procs and, a good change that helps the power do its function as utility, is railed against because, damage procs.