Defense VS Resist?

[Gone]

Resistance based powersets will always be better for endgame content due to how easy it is to softcap a defense type purely with IO sets.  If you don't plan to build a character with IO sets, then defense powersets are fine and probably easier to level up with than resistance due to the factors Heraclea mentioned, as getting hit stacks debuffs (although obviously I do not agree with anything else stated, resistance based sets are clearly better for endgame and defense based sets are clearly better for leveling).

 

Resistance powersets for endgame: You can softcap a defense type easily with IO sets, while having capped resistances as well.

 

Defense powersets for leveling: You can softcap defense without IO sets or with minimal IO sets, making leveling cheap and easy. Once you are doing endgame content you will not be able to easily add resistance with IO sets, meaning you have half of the layers of defense that a resistance powerset would have since the resistance set added capped defense on top and the defense powerset didn't add much in the way of resistances.

 

None of this really matters though, because in endgame every build stomps everything due to incarnates and sets.  Even a defense set can get to capped S/L resists with enough creative building, but it is more difficult than adding defense.

The only sets that could be called resistance based are fire, dark, and invul because a majority of their damage mitigation comes from +res powers. Dark and Fire have always been considered some of the least survivable secondaries do to their trade offs for AoE damage and Invul is usually considered one of the most survivable secondaries because it trades off a ton of +damage compared to other sets. For teaming Fire and Dark are great because AoE damage matters most at that level but for anything like solo'ing AVs and Pylons you're going to get squashed most of the time using either of those two. Most scrapper secondaries have a mix of def/res/regen because having only res or def or regen opens you up to cascading buff failure so to say that res is the best for endgame content is not correct.

 

Fire isn't a good secondary on a scrapper in most situations, I can agree with that,  The rest of your evaluations are a little sketchy, especially if you are lumping fire and dark in the same bucket.

 

Dark brings defense (a toggle equaling weave), a huge fast-recharging heal, very good resist types (energy being weak and also the easiest to build sets for) and two CC mitigation toggles.  This is not fire, this is not a 'damage' set, maybe you should look into it again so that you're more aware of the capabilities?

 

It's OKAY to say that you need layered defenses as a scrapper, I have no issue with that, it isn't 'wrong'.  The question was RESISTANCE OR DEFENSE though.

 

Super Reflexes and Energy Aura and Ninjitsu and Ice Armor, the defense based sets, are not good choices compared to the resistance based sets Radiation, Dark, Invuln, and Electric, because all of those sets have powerful mitigation tools and the ability to cap a defense on top of capping resistances.

 

Defense or Resist, I'm picking Resist every single time, because it is clearly the right choice when factoring in set bonuses. Build high resists, build high defense, and build in your other mitigation. That was the answer to the OP's actual question.

I've played dark that was soft capped and it still got squashed so maybe it was user error.  SR should not have any issues and has always been considered a highly survivable build. There is a reason you don't see many high res builds in the pylon thread or solo'ing AVs is partly because res builds on scrappers is no where near as effective as it is on tankers/brutes. The other is that it requires a much higher investment than a mixed build or a pure defense build.

 

I never said anything about SR having issues, and if the crux of your assertions are based on pylon and AV soloing numbers I'm not sure we can come to any kind of agreement as that covers a minuscule portion of gameplay that few people bother with and if you are taking budget into consideration you probably shouldn't be worrying about pylon or AV soloing as a primary goal, because you won't compete with a budget build the same way an unlimited budget would.

 

SR is fine, and it actually has debuff resistance (although that's available to all through incarnates so it isn't that big of a deal) and doesn't crumble to cascades as easily as the other defense sets do.  SR is still SO MUCH BETTER with capped resists. I'd also still feel a lot safer on any of the resist sets (there are quite a few, it seems in other posts you've noticed there are more than two resist sets so I won't get into that) with softcap defense.

 

I'm not trying to say defense powersets are bad.  I'm saying that resist powersets have a better ceiling that is easier to achieve and more durability.

 

You need both Defense and Resists.  That's the real point.  You should have both.  You should build for both. The difference is, Resist powersets get defense easily.  Defense powersets do not get resists easily and have to sacrifice more to get them.  It isn't a huge gap.  It doesn't matter that much.  Like my first post stated, none of this actually matters because every build stomps everything in the endgame given enough creative building.

[Dismiss]

This decision shouldn't be made in a vacuum.

 

Certainly you could take electric armor and try to cap s/l/e/n defense, but you will be trading off a LOT to do so. Especially for scrappers where resist cap is 75%, pure resist sets generally come with a big trade off to get to defense caps. Scrappers tend to prefer hybrid type ones if you are min maxing. By that I mean something like Shield or Invuln, where you can more easily hit defense caps (Invuln starts at 8.3% defense s/l/e/n without weave or maneuvers) and still maintain high levels of resist while keeping a good attack chain and damage, which is the most important part for a scrapper. If you only care about defensive ability, play a tanker!

 

This also tends to be the logic behind sets like super reflexes. Yes, you can get unlucky and die, but, especially with the built in recharge bonus, it lets you be very aggressive offensively, because so few slots are needed to dedicate to defense.

[Gone]

This decision shouldn't be made in a vacuum.

 

Certainly you could take electric armor and try to cap s/l/e/n defense, but you will be trading off a LOT to do so. Especially for scrappers where resist cap is 75%, pure resist sets generally come with a big trade off to get to defense caps.

 

What are you giving up to reach softcap defense?  Especially when you don't have to work as hard to use IO sets to reach your resist caps, that leaves a lot of room for extra defense set bonuses.  I'm not sure what you're getting at, what is your example of this or is it just a 'feeling' you have?

[Dismiss]

Recharge to enable a more optimal attack chain.

[Gone]

Recharge to enable a more optimal attack chain.

 

Example though?

[Dismiss]

I really don't get why we need examples. If there were no tradeoffs, everyone would be using resist armors, but that's not what happens.

 

Here's an example anyway:

 

Here's my fire shield scrapper. It runs Cremate, Incinerate, GFS with no gaps. It has 45% to all positions.

 

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Reborn to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1535;707;1414;HEX;|
|78DA65944B6F125114C7EFC020427996B6F485409F08760A7D181F312EAC357D903|
|4217167700AB73096500298E8D2444DD49D1B97C6B872E3DAF8117CD5C4AFE0C24D|
|5BE323D568C5D3F91F90C884C9EFDCFFBDE7DC73EEB943FAC682EBF9A55BE785E2B|
|950D26BB56C2657D52B1559B5A5F5829113878F9DDEC1A69E4DCB9294DAA221AB37|
|61875B530B7243966B52CB140D59CA3787FEA572515665B9AE350DE7DAD65649CB5|
|4A4CCBB4C7355EA15A35C709B8345A350ACD3C8DB9CCACB6AAD685482172B464ECB|
|D4F5D2E6611AD7B369BD56A72CFA29BD04BDB7ED829F06FDE8114E370D145351459|
|08C902A2CFB562152C41FA0FA9DF90DBC435114F8D814A99ADA913C78F42A53079D|
|EBCC1C384ABE5664A0581D16F8DA4117E562E3B8B61DECE5FB0476CF2BE01CD8936|
|4A6C0118A6B87AF623F2C35E5103EA69BE23A78CEC15A5F93E4D785394B572F62F5|
|1F08F31C223D187791BF9BCFC8CD6BFA569057FF1238B8C85C063DE4E3350FA921B|
|C51EC758FF6F2A3769BFF1C6A1E3E051E3BCD3CC33C0B4604E279295E00398800E7|
|A050BC5EEE66AFD94D2B2941ACB206B97B11EE5EF42793BB789FD60E7036039B02D|
|DB9864C47379805E86345A601FD2EF90EC1D73AF4982B7906469F80634F4195D686|
|38A7D057EC3DF1059CDC65EE810F686D98730A6FF3DC3BF0F82BE66BE61B30FE16F|
|4D3098DB0EF089F5AFC17728837C013BF9907CC3FE0475A3E0E5FCBF8366A9D78CF|
|FC00EEBB848871FCD849F84DCD336798B3E0F41CF3057CFD5457826F5082BB37CDB|
|72BE5630698DD7CD3A91E8DBBABCDF0D7405A926F4192E30CABFF7FD361B5F54D37|
|E21DB3C90E25D5A1CC7628731DCA6A87B2A6F2B6A428A6E2F0B5BEF6C68EB3F5AF2|
|194299CCBDE3FCDA25C463DAE286A752DD3785215BBED7E31F87D6EF77B84B3F63C|
|B49877D313C11D5D779A99997BEB6DF695367BADCD7E499727C5F64A806C3EC1BFF|
|470FE0A|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

This is an electric armor. I used that to give it a good shot of running the attack chain due to inherent recharge, but it still has a gap in the Cremate, Incinerate, GFS chain and should probably add fire sword or scorch to maximize damage, but I haven't done the math (the last two slots could do there to boost that attacks accuracy if so).

 

This build has to use barrier to get to 45% s/l and, unfortunately, only 40% e/n defense. Unfortunately, we also had to drop ball lightning since it wasn't able to help fill the e/n defense needs.

 

Anyway, the point is, the build obviously has trade-offs. That's not to say it is worse or better, it's that you can't get everything with any given build. That's by design and it's good design! It would be boring if you could and we would all be using the same build.

 

If you can figure out a way to s/l/e/n cap this build without a gap in Cremate, Incinerate, GFS please let me know, I'd welcome the input. It would be great if ball lightning was still available too.

 

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Reborn to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1525;715;1430;HEX;|
|78DA65944D6F12511486EF0C830885165A5A0A6DA1403F686BA7A06E8D31B635DA3|
|64149DC993A9DDE96510432B0D0A5899AA85113372E6BE3CA8D3FC09FE0E74FD0A5|
|B19F5AB78AA773DE521226C07338F79CF7BC7798CBD2DD59FFBB4BF7CF0BA5F362C|
|9A8D5960BA66D54ABD2762F19EB96290E2F0FBD6347F9E5255992529FB7A47D8FE3|
|44736956AEC9724DEA732569D66DCB5CBE60DFA9D8A1CBE5A2B465B9AE1F05BE7CA|
|552D20B552957FD4EB8288DAA555E0F385FE6ADF5629DBE751D2DAD4ABB56B4AAD1|
|B9AA65EA85BA51BA7D68C330257DD4EAE4A39F0C4ED1FB8147E06AA8E2834B889C2|
|64E7C66767E616E076859716A3411A16048136A8A384E8C33B52498603E245D857B|
|DC8AD458779579F22668307D2BA0C94C53AF8B3D0997577572BBE4C1CD7A2E37660|
|6E1A11BB3BB313B45FD1EAE553C879BCC794510DC231D2F74BCE8EF835E0C3A31E8|
|F4914E07D7AA1DBD8AE3A3FFAF70F63FBDC0F76687F402A809ECA8BCB6CD9CD962E|
|E534D17667661661833C39895C3ECC73433C47B7787A03708BD38F4E20DBE27F17F|
|CCE173CC5F34A707737AB6D95FFF1673E62733F783A9D09C5E9EE3EACD13529A387|
|515BC0616982EAA8D403702FFC3F09F84EF24F6F1846AA3F01F856E1ABA69E8A6A1|
|3B724B385E462CE623EA1D80A7810DDED3E05B66729339F286A951ED103C0DE1B71|
|9DBE5BD8DEF8107CCA7549B605D2DF1156B9F98131F4178995C631ED0BD4C390F7D|
|434D3DE399932FC0E7CC6FD43A8AB333BAC97D63AFC10DE677AAC9A026839A09AC4|
|DA33644FEA6F00C4D612F3361662EC8FC437E749C09FD347BFE4DB92CF789EC346B|
|0D6ACDF34C2FBA44426B9EDEC664DB6AB62D936BCB9C69CB9C6DCB2CB665F21AC65|
|2467132DE60F35C37767CCDFF07A1C0FBDE714E55AEF3BEFD49DEABFF0A3F5FBBAD|
|7D19EEDB3FCE29CA2BFE6D3A5FAACE795FF1398E9C99464B7CA325CEB7C4EF53D48|
|678A18762DCB9FF3D0FFA59|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

[MunkiLord]

Well i would still love to take ninjitsu but what would you guys recommend then, I have seen so many different Opinions in thread lol. I been messing around with some other secondarys in the builder but so far that all come out to about equal as ninjitsu except for elec seemed really high on the resist end but was harder to cap as many def as i did with ninjitsu build.

 

If you want to use Ninjitsu then focus first on softcapping your positional defenses, then get enough recharge to run the attack chain you want based on your primary. After that I'd generally look at S/L resistance as that pairs nicely with Tough while also seeing what can be done with Regen and max HP. Of course the entire time making sure you have enough endurance to do what you want.

[BrandX]

Well i would still love to take ninjitsu but what would you guys recommend then, I have seen so many different Opinions in thread lol. I been messing around with some other secondarys in the builder but so far that all come out to about equal as ninjitsu except for elec seemed really high on the resist end but was harder to cap as many def as i did with ninjitsu build.

 

What Primary would you prefer to take?

[Riverdusk]

He said in another post he wants to run dual blades, so suggesting shield isn't going to work for him.

 

My suggestion is to just go with Ninjitsu if that's what you want.  It may not be the absolute "uber" choice, but especially with the right IO's it will do great.  Pre-IO's it is actually one of the better choices. Good defense as well as a heal and endurance regain powers and a built in stealth/travel power makes for a very easy time in "normal" content. I'm not an expert in it as my katana/Ninj is only lvl 31, but mine has been amazing so far and one of the easiest leveling scrappers I've tried.    As I said in another thread it almost feels like a scrapper/stalker hybrid to me with the way it plays.

 

The build I have planned anyway, I still manage to get around 50% s/l resist and around 40% to most others (including toxic).  It can actually be one of the best sets at psi resist as it's psi resist is on a click that can stack, so psi would be pretty easy to cap actually.  Only resistance "hole" on mine is energy/neg which is only around 20%.  That was just my first tentative build try.

 

Also, we're talking scrapper here, some combos might be a bit better than others, but in the end they are all just different levels of awesome. 

[Heraclea]

Dual blades raises another issue.  To get the most out of it, he will want all of the attacks except Provoke.  This suggest a forgiving defense set with many skippable or postponable powers.  Most of the defense based armors have very little of that kind of give; you need all of the pieces in place.  I would suggest Invuln - you'll get one of the passives whether you want it or not, and can use it as a mule for the +def IOs, but the other two are skippable or postponable until 47-49,  as is Unstoppable - or Fire, whose core protections are in only four powers.  Willpower is also a possibility; the last two powers in the set are quite skippable.  I also recommend waiting to take Mind over Body until after Quick Recovery, which creates a little more wiggle room in the early build.

[BrandX]

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1461;675;1350;HEX;|
|78DA6594596F125114C7EF9419A7AC65296DE986450A14EC14D417B734A955630B4|
|D13125F71846B3B8600616862E312FB017CF2C12FA0555FFC0EBEBA7E0DB7AA896F|
|6E783AE7DF253281FC66FEF7FECF39F7DCB953BAB5E87B71796B5E28810B75D3B62|
|BE56ADB6CB5645B2B996B5655EC5E3AFD47F7F44A49D6A5341637CC7A65A16ED6A4|
|1DDB1F5A943764C396C68AD5B86975EC8DD095C6BA6CCB46C7D8BBF1AF369B75E39|
|2B5B6DEB11A6B03CE53515294B6BD6EB53CCE73B92565CD87899D86B4EDD0C59655|
|35169AB5CD4AC9B43BB2BD394225A5E87F5B17B8BAF4A34B6833F4A0388A2A82745|
|350455F188C30D54130CABCA3C322BA9A92EE23CD2D8E64C019667F16CCF5391ECF|
|4B6244A571215C9C4F73219F0FF97CC81740BE00F2057FB81CEAE4D550AB066F10D|
|E30BC617807E1BDA7EF6E88E2E4D3AFA95C8BC91CBA0E569923355032FB299F9BBD|
|C29D13CE7A148AE7E5B5ABDE255EDBE80A737299395764164A4C1779FCA8DB9FE5B|
|A466799E30638C72C9CE0B5BA29F700E751061E702F271F32EF53BC10FA1F7AC5F3|
|275F338FBE01DF82EF9853EF991E8A1B8137F201631FC14FCC639FC12FE00E53A5B|
|C51AC238AFE27D1FF24FA9F44FF53E87F883CC3F00CC3938227054F1A9E343C5BE4|
|89A1C6D8695E73FA0C73E62C780E3CCFCCCE738D5E5ADF18E71363BB89275411A17|
|8138837F198F724FB04DC661E7F0A3E039F33EF92378EFD8EFF626DF637F807FC8B|
|7DEF32C3E449A086C414BF3709D2A65953A6F12E15C032959EC1A9CC40DBF60B914|
|38CDC238EEBA3B519986738A7D74F4A1E4A7E993B30AEFE7FC6E3EAFE19EF667B46|
|F33D4AA14739D9A39CEA518A075914A173C5836EE6AABAFFC5108A33DB1DA4EF002|
|BDD1D0F8D2A8747BF1D288AB2443769EAEE557E3BBEF6CCFE7E5841AF7E0E1110FF|
|1F06A3E3EE|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

Here's something to look at, maybe get some ideas.

 

I'd likely do it a bit different, like forgo Hasten, as Dual Blades does enough ST Damage with BF > Attack Vitals Combo > Repeat.  Especially when one considers you'd have two purple procs and two -resist procs.

 

While it'd have a bit of a pause between attacks, it may be more ST damage to go BF > AS > SS > AS > Repeat, but I didn't bother to do the math on it.

 

I'd ditch Hasten, slot up power slide for another 2.25% S/L Resist something like this...

 

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1465;679;1358;HEX;|
|78DA6594596F125114C7EFC0E0B0B62CA53BD4D69655A6457D714B938A1AB598262|
|4BEE20857988650C2D0C4C6B51FC0177DF00B68D517BF83AFAE5FC3AD6AE29B1B9E|
|CEF997363281FC66CE3DFF73CEFD7387E28D82FFC5F9CD45A10C9C691896552E55D|
|A46AB25DBAEA251332B62E7D2E83BBE1B2F1765434ABDB06E34CA4B0DA32AADB1DE|
|52415E974D4BEA97CDE6AAD9B1D643179A75D996CD8EBE7B1358595B6BE8E7CC5AB|
|D63366B83F6D3B2A42A6DAB6EB6BCF673A92565D58FC44E535A56E86CCBACE84B6B|
|D58D72D1B03AB2BD314A2325E87B5313B8BAF4A14BB8D2F4A0D8115504E926AF0A4|
|7188C30D52130CABCA54122BA2E25E9A098471C488169A63B03661DB6C6FB921851|
|695D0827F77339D1CF8F7E7EF41B40BF01F40BFE70DAD448EBC2AC2E6883D086A10|
|D433B04ED1D6DE70751EC7EDA5595673198C3D7C00A73B40A4AA69BFA79582B3C59|
|61EF47A17A3E38E8B31D74522480A90219EE3A9E634EEAE03C337F8477E2A1CA835|
|C4519BCCF4EC51F32EF51BD10DC0DBDE2FCF86BE6C137E05BF01D73FA3DD34B7523|
|D0463E60ED23F88979E833F805DC66AAD4378A7D44E1EE2CDC9D85BBB3703701774|
|3A4198166049A0434096892D024A1D924CD18661C3BCE7B4E9E60A64F82A7C0D3CC|
|CC22CFE8A3FD4D703F31B1D338A68A08D58BA15EEC319FB6CC13708B79F829F80C7|
|CCEBC4DDA29D6AA53BF3896FB0DFE01FF32E7BBCC30696630C3CC349F8ABB149BE3|
|3A8EB93AF24D667E9559A22DA4707252384D5B0121B25C4BC93E42FE03A69FF6AA2|
|35FB74F5A80220B882C5C624726D5FFDFE829B5F74677337DAB0B7B114568DC29EE|
|46E7BEECA37D91637D91E5BD7EBD8A431EE68ADAFBA7108A9DED09D2FBCF91EEB69|
|756E1A4926347BEEDC514E522DD24C9C92B7C72BEEECF4F71FEF7FDF970701C0EFE|
|1C26C0897FB7F0DDB2|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

Replace Blinding Powder with a Travel power besides Ninja Run, Hover or Combat Jumping with the Slow Resist IO perhaps (added defense or vertical when needed).

[jack_nomind]

DB really only cares about Attack Vitals and Blinding Feint, so you can skip 4/9.

[Shinobu]

Ninjitsu is a very nice set.  If you softcap it you'll be quite tough, and you have a heal and an endurance recovery button.  You have to deal with clicky status protection but that's the same with Shield and... one other, I forget.  Probably SR which I never play anymore, because I like Ninjitsu and Shield.  Anyway, it's a very nice set.  It's sort of stalkerish, giving you partial stealth and no taunt aura.

 

My suggestion is, if you like Ninjitsu, then play it and softcap it and don't worry about resist so much.  If you're desperate to layer resistance you can pick up Rune of Protection and at level 50 (with a lot of vet levels) you'll be able to alternate that with Hybrid Melee Core for good resistance on top of softcapped defense... but that's hardly needed in most normal situations, having softcapped defense with a heal is going to carry you through the vast majority of content.

 

And then you can make a resistance scrapper later.  ;)

[BrandX]

DB really only cares about Attack Vitals and Blinding Feint, so you can skip 4/9.

 

That's all I relied on when CoH was live.  BF > AV > Repeat.  I did have the PBAOE as a one slot attack, but that's just because I liked the animation.

 

As for Ninjitsu, I find it's just a concept friendly Secondary.  One doesn't even have to be a ninja to use it.  I don't use Blinding Powder.  I'm willing to skip the tier 9 if I want the slot for a concept power and in the end, I feel it's a slightly more active WP with perks thrown in for that activity.

[Xaeon]

As someone whose main was an elec/elec scrapper back on live....pure resist sets are a pretty bad idea on scrappers not gonna lie. Better to go with pure defense than pure resist on a scrapper if you absolutely have to pick.

[Sir Myshkin]

This is an electric armor. I used that to give it a good shot of running the attack chain due to inherent recharge, but it still has a gap in the Cremate, Incinerate, GFS chain and should probably add fire sword or scorch to maximize damage, but I haven't done the math (the last two slots could do there to boost that attacks accuracy if so).

 

This build has to use barrier to get to 45% s/l and, unfortunately, only 40% e/n defense. Unfortunately, we also had to drop ball lightning since it wasn't able to help fill the e/n defense needs.

 

Anyway, the point is, the build obviously has trade-offs. That's not to say it is worse or better, it's that you can't get everything with any given build. That's by design and it's good design! It would be boring if you could and we would all be using the same build.

 

If you can figure out a way to s/l/e/n cap this build without a gap in Cremate, Incinerate, GFS please let me know, I'd welcome the input. It would be great if ball lightning was still available too.

 

Things are far less difficult than some might anticipate. I will say that, unless it is incredibly convenient, trying to get a Resistance based set to include a soft-cap defense to Energy while also chasing a primary S/L, isn't wholly realistic in 98% of cases. Given that, there's some important information to remember when trying to maximize survivability:

 

Of the damage types overall in the game roughly 60% is Lethal, 15% Smashing, 5% Energy, and the rest broken down into Negative, Fire, Cold, Psionic, and lastly Toxic (in that order). I might be off on those by a couple +/- 1 or 2%, but that's what the basic breakdown used to be. From a positional standpoint its 70% Melee, 20% Ranged, 10% AoE. This is why S/L is directly tied to Melee when working with global bonuses (or so I'll choose to believe cause it makes the most logical design call). Considering that, S/L and Melee are the best categories to tie to 45%, and they kinda of just cause each other to get there equally if you balance your choices correctly.

 

Now this build chunk requires running Ageless Radial (for the DDR, but also the static extra 10% and initial recharge boost). It'll carry the build to Perma Hasten due to needing a 9/s shave off. The chain Cremate > Incinerate > GFS is otherwise gap-less regardless of Ageless, so long as Hasten is up.

 

45.6 S/L 45.3 Melee Defense

74 S/L, 75 F/C/E, 44.4 N, 45.8 Psi Resists

A little better end management (regardless of Ageless), and better slotting on the three primary attacks.

Oh, and Ball Lightning.

I also took out Power Sink since it's kind of unnecessary and Electric Armor lacks a +Perception ability. I swapped for Tactics for scenarios where it'd be useful over a "dead" power.

 

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1547;728;1456;HEX;|
|78DA65945B4F135110C7CFB65B4A4B0BADE57EAB2DB75264A582FA688C805168526|
|DE29BA94B39C2C65A9A6D4DF4D1444DD41745137DF0FAE88B1FC4EB9730C60B05C4|
|0B1A2F38BBFFA134E9A6CD6FF63F3367E6CCD9DDE4C549DFF3A3970F09A5F1484E2|
|F1633E9ACA9170AD27425F505232BE8AA4F178C7CC934B26EBAE9DCF667923227A5|
|366D48F312EC70C53529CFCA7C516A533999B5123387CDF34B66F0587E519A325FD|
|2B60D5F6A6929A7CD4A9D0A2C78ED9B7441CA79BF6D4E1B0B8B2572346D47CD4BB3|
|B86814DAA60A46564B97F4DC39AB8D0B99A45E2C5117EDD4DE08FDAF587DDAD7964|
|3BC700A915085EF1538F8125CF1935BB1635CE21B34EF77E60FCED904FB7F82C3BF|
|C0AB6E4EA55CE52D34C71BE66BB02EEEB0D9180323236099EA3AB9AEF33734F50FF|
|32F58F78F73B7C03E8135AF515D17EA2A2E6BA3098F187E8698555AD78D759D6EEE|
|37C0FD37F3FE22BCBF358AF52056F1B0AF9F7DAD54A3817D0D2D8A5D233043BE1EE|
|A837C7ED4177E0FEAAE93D08478D1B40F6B5CA7B820CF27F840B5B55D0F998FC0E6|
|C760EB13B0FF29F885D60BF17C421FB8A78F60FB27B0FB339FE50A182F830AD56D4|
|15D674B8A105545EF0970E824389C069D14DB863A6A1BCFAB9D67D1C7B388F3FC12|
|5620ED5FA59C0ECEE9B067A38ACE666600EC0E81BD41F006E574F12CBACE608F433|
|A730E8C67C1C43C538241CAED413D470FD7EB6DC4998C7AC19B1413E6F5C37791B7|
|FB16F33673198CDC0107F9D989526E94CF3ACA5A1F3344BE013ED78188B0F3DED13|
|8627CFEB14E689B3EBC73D64C460EE299D8738039CE9C0047F783EF691D8DCF49FB|
|0A6DEF06738DB90E6ED0F330C67D8C8DA266B75A79BFE9479708AB95B7792B5EE31|
|DAB511235CA788D3251A3CCD62829B5F225108AAD94BDA470BF0AF7BBB6A3399453|
|38C7FAE3C4216204CFD86A755E0C79EB3B9AA2DCE3192E839E80B0BE0AF68E535EB|
|B23DB3E5D65EB55F65C953D13A225D8BE5F65FF07B7E60906|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

[Dismiss]

Thanks for the build. I like it, but I think it highlights what I'm talking about. There are always trade offs. The claim I had a problem with was that resist armors could do everything.

 

You even highlight the trade off you made, e/n defense. (due to the amount of non-positional psi, I don't consider that positional defense has a huge advantage there). Energy defense is a lot bigger deal than it used to be with the increasing amount of praetorian content. The shield build I posted will take far less damage from energy attacks. The 120s duration -def debuff from ageless is also only 21.25%. I think most of the pure energy damage in praetorian content is also ranged, so melee doesn't help much there.

 

 

Stara implied resists sets could achieve defense caps without any attack chain trade offs. My position was that there would be a trade off. Here if we consider s/l/e/n capped as equivalent to capped positional, there is still clearly a trade off. That doesn't make one wrong or right. It depends on personal preference and what you want to do. This is good game design.

[Leogunner]

It's OKAY to say that you need layered defenses as a scrapper, I have no issue with that, it isn't 'wrong'.  The question was RESISTANCE OR DEFENSE though.

 

 

Well obviously, the answer is BOTH!

 

That's usually why sets don't have only one, except Electric...

[Leogunner]

Were he playing resistance, short of wallowing in influence, augmenting resistance would be the bigger payoff initially.

I have not found this to be true. For example, getting my /Fire stalker to a reasonable level of S/L defense (way short of the softcap, and for a fraction of the budget of a level 50 build) paid off far more than extra resists did.

 

You'd think it should work the way you say, due to the increasing returns on defensive stats. But defensive set bonuses are available in larger quantities, relatively speaking: since enemy tohit is 50% base, defense is point-for-point twice as good as resistance. Kinetic Combat gives +3.75% S/L defense for four pieces and can be had at a reasonable price, but there are no sets that give +7.5% S/L resist.

 

Also, even a moderate amount of defense gives you the option to pop 1-2 Lucks and be invincible for 60 seconds, while popping oranges is much less effective and rapidly runs into the resist cap.

 

A character who is in his teens and not borrowing funds from previously existing characters is doing what to get his defense up? Buying from the AH? With what? It is cheaper and easier to slot DOs and SOs in powers and acquire pool powers (as they unlock by playing the game) than toss out a couple of million for IOs.

 

5 million influence is pocket lint for a level 50 character, but sub-30 (and again not having influence lying around from other characters) it's quite a bit more meaningful. And picking up a 3% or 5% one-time boost for what it would cost to otherwise fully result your character strikes me as less beneficial than filling out you powerset powers with slots and SOs and picking up pool powers.

 

FYI, spending a bit of time crafting some of those Enhancement recipes you get as drops while leveling can easily net you 10-20 mil.  My characters tend to group up to level 22, I trade, buy, sell and craft until I can slot lvl 25 IOs and then coast to around level 38.  Respec, sell the IOs, buy sets and I've got mixed bonuses depending on the character, netting good values for power rech, dmg, acc, end with some extra +dmg, +rech, +def.

 

It's even easier if you solo some of the way as you don't get as much xp but get more salvage and recipe drops.  Now, if you just farm or PL, you'll have fewer things to sell but you'll be in range for more farming/lucrative activities to build strength faster via incarnate.

 

But that isn't the problem you're talking about.  You can easily afford an IO build in the 30s.  You just can't worry about maximizing level speed.  If that is your goal, to get to farming level, I'd suggest skipping Scrapper and make a Dominator or Controller with capped s/l def.  Much more efficient.

[Obitus]

It's even easier if you solo some of the way as you don't get as much xp but get more salvage and recipe drops.  Now, if you just farm or PL, you'll have fewer things to sell but you'll be in range for more farming/lucrative activities to build strength faster via incarnate.

 

Yep, also you can earn a lot of merits just by soloing story arcs (and picking up some exploration badges, if so inclined).  At ~300k a pop (selling converters), that adds up real quick.

 

Of course if you want real riches, you play the market, but IO prices on Homecoming are reasonable enough that you can earn even a tippy top high-end build through normal game play.  It just takes longer.

[Gone]

It's OKAY to say that you need layered defenses as a scrapper, I have no issue with that, it isn't 'wrong'.  The question was RESISTANCE OR DEFENSE though.

 

 

Well obviously, the answer is BOTH!

 

That's usually why sets don't have only one, except Electric...

 

Yes it is both, but the question becomes more granular in nature when you compare what you can get by powerset.  If you can only get your S/L Resists to 50% while getting 45% positional defense on a defense-based powerset, but you can get 75% S/L/E/N/F/C (Or even close to that) resists on a resist set plus 45% defense S/L, you are obviously getting more durability on the resist based set.

 

I can cap S/L resist on a positional based defense powerset but it is more difficult (you lose MORE trying to build resists in due to the % you get and the distance from cap compared to defense).

 

The answer is still Resists, if you are building for durability.  If you are building for damage or recharge as a primary focus, sure I'll accept that argument as it is a separate goal.  I would still assert that you can achieve a better balance building from a resistance based set though, so if you are looking for a mix of durability and damage, then resists are again a better starting point (as it STILL takes less to softcap a defense with IO sets, leaving freedom to pursue other things like recharge and damage%).

[Dismiss]

You definitely have a point on a brute or tanker, but I think this is much less true on scrapper, where resists caps at 75%. Getting to 45% defense is just far, far more valuable than 75% resist. A hybrid set like shield or invuln will do both easily. Shield probably won't hit resist cap, but it has the DDR to actually maintain its defense under fire unlike most resist sets.

 

Pure resist sets must give up something on a scrapper to achieve high defense levels. This may match someones preferences, but I don't think pure toughness is why most people are playing scrapper (see the number of TW/Bio's running around). Preference on how to build is definitely a matter of opinion, but it's not correct to say you can everything without any trade offs in another part of the build.

[Gone]

You definitely have a point on a brute or tanker, but I think this is much less true on scrapper, where resists caps at 75%. Getting to 45% defense is just far, far more valuable than 75% resist. A hybrid set like shield or invuln will do both easily. Shield probably won't hit resist cap, but it has the DDR to actually maintain its defense under fire unlike most resist sets.

 

Pure resist sets must give up something on a scrapper to achieve high defense levels. This may match someones preferences, but I don't think pure toughness is why most people are playing scrapper (see the number of TW/Bio's running around). Preference on how to build is definitely a matter of opinion, but it's not correct to say you can everything without any trade offs in another part of the build.

 

Okay.

 

Are Resistance based powersets built for durability more durable than defense based powersets built for durability?

 

Again, just to clarify for the OP who had a specific intentional question for this thread:

 

I know the difference between def and resist but im curious as far as builds do go, which is better to go for first for survivability?

[Dismiss]

Yes, a set that is capped to defense with higher resist obviously is tougher than one with lower resist. I don't have a problem with this claim.

 

The post I had a problem with was this one:

 

What are you giving up to reach softcap defense?  Especially when you don't have to work as hard to use IO sets to reach your resist caps, that leaves a lot of room for extra defense set bonuses.  I'm not sure what you're getting at, what is your example of this or is it just a 'feeling' you have?

 

That implies you can get everything with a resist set. I showed you must give something up like recharge, because you demanded an example. That's my only point. There are trade offs. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I will say my preference is for a hybrid defense set because I prefer as aggressive attack chains as possible. A hybrid set makes this possible. I can't achieve my personal goals (I solo a lot) of s/l/e/n defense 45% on a set like electric armor on a primary that requires aggressive (or even moderate in a lot of cases) recharge. Maybe I just suck at making builds, but I don't think that's the case.

 

[Gone]

Yes, a set that is capped to defense with higher resist obviously is tougher than one with lower resist. I don't have a problem with this claim.

 

The post I had a problem with was this one:

 

What are you giving up to reach softcap defense?  Especially when you don't have to work as hard to use IO sets to reach your resist caps, that leaves a lot of room for extra defense set bonuses.  I'm not sure what you're getting at, what is your example of this or is it just a 'feeling' you have?

 

That implies you can get everything with a resist set. I showed you must give something up like recharge, because you demanded an example. That's my only point. There are trade offs. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I will say my preference is for a hybrid defense set because I prefer as aggressive attack chains as possible. A hybrid set makes this possible. I can't achieve my personal goals (I solo a lot) of s/l/e/n defense 45% on a set like electric armor on a primary that requires aggressive (or even moderate in a lot of cases) recharge. Maybe I just suck at making builds, but I don't think that's the case.

 

That's fine but not within the purview of this thread.  I agree that every build gives up something for something else.  I think there is a deeper discussion for the above (such as giving up too much defensively for minimal offensive gains) but again not for this, where the OP just wanted to know about how survivable each is.