Addressing the Tanker Brute Connundrum.

[Leogunner]

12 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I find it interesting though that since a Brute can eclipse the Tanker's role, that simply making it so a Tanker can eclipse the Brute's role is so unpopular. 

That goes back into other discussions.  The simplest solution is to just increase Tanker damage caps so they are equal or nearly so but then I'd be in the camp with Auroxis about not wanting Tankers to be just another Brute despite them having the same powerset categories.  I've heard various improvements to Bruising, team buffs and adding support aspects to armor sets.  These are far more interesting to me.  I have stated my opinion on this avenue.  Basically, I don't think we need to let Tanker eclipse Brute, just give Tanker some unique aspects.  But my idea does touch on the concept of letting Tankers eclipse Brutes in the realm of AoE splash damage.

[Leogunner]

18 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Bruising doesn't stack does it?

 

Even from other players? 

No, it doesn't stack.  It has something to do with it being a granted power.

 

I'd be curious if, as a granted power to a player or mob AI, the effects of the granted power can vary by some sort of category like by mob tier (minion, Lt, Boss, AV/GM) or even by mob groups (some skills currently target ghosts, some the Lost, etc).

Edited September 2, 2019 by Leogunner

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

That goes back into other discussions.  The simplest solution is to just increase Tanker damage caps so they are equal or nearly so but then I'd be in the camp with Auroxis about not wanting Tankers to be just another Brute despite them having the same powerset categories.  I've heard various improvements to Bruising, team buffs and adding support aspects to armor sets.  These are far more interesting to me.  I have stated my opinion on this avenue.  Basically, I don't think we need to let Tanker eclipse Brute, just give Tanker some unique aspects.  But my idea does touch on the concept of letting Tankers eclipse Brutes in the realm of AoE splash damage.

The Cap is too low, especially with the low Scale.  But maybe that applies to a lot of other ATs. 

 

I was more thinking about IOs.  It takes a decent, but not really expensive, IO build for the Brute to actually be Tanker Enough Tough for 99% of all content.  

But you can't take the same level of investment and turn a Tanker to be near Brute damage for 99% of content. 

 

You can of course use a super expensive near perma hasten high damage build to match the typical less built Brute.   As long as the cap isn't in the way yet. 

 

   

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

No.  It has something to do with it being a granted power.

 

I'd be curious if, as a granted power to a player or mob AI, the effects of the granted power can vary by some sort of category like by mob tier (minion, Lt, Boss, AV/GM) or even by mob groups (some skills currently target ghosts, some the Lost, etc).

That kind of stings as far as the idea of multiple Tanks on the team.  

 

But if it doesn't stack, why is it limited to the Teir 1 power? 

 

Why not have all the Tanker's attack powers bruise?  Perhaps gated by level.  

 

So a level 50 Tanker bruises with her Foot Stomp.  But a level 38 Tanker's maybe doesn't.   

 

Maybe AOEs come last.  Something to that effect.  Maybe AOE Bruising is OP.  IDK.   Doesn't seem to be compared to a Sonic defender.    

[Myrmidon]

Profit,

 

After reading that flavor of the month thread, we are henceforth not allowed to use Spines/Fire Brutes as a metric for this thread (I know one Spines/Fire that is not a pure farm creature, however, I am certain that most of them are just farm monkeys).

Edited September 2, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Bruising doesn't stack does it?

 

Even from other players? 

It currently does not. It can be refreshed tho. 

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Jeuraud said:

Your another Tank proponent who thinks they are the only AT allowed to perform a specific role (Agro control through Taunt.), while every other role in CoH has multiple ATs that can fill those roles. Gods, the arrogance of some of you people.

 

This guy gets it.

 

A lot don't want tanks fixed, they just want them broken so you can't team without them.  And they don't care what gets nerfed and how it affects anyone to get there.

 

I like the diversity and being able to tank with every AT I play.

[Infinitum]

7 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Now sure you and the other guy say that job isn't really needed in a team where everyone has even reasonably priced IO builds, okay, I can buy that.  I've seen that.  It works fine.  But that's not Tanking.    

"Tanking" in COH isn't required or even efficient.  A Tank in COH just like a brute stalker or scrapper is a useful AT but none of them doing what you consider tanking, the most effective way is to blast through maps every AT maintaining their own aggro, preferable with a hard target melee AT or two, or three or none or as many as you want.

 

Tanking in COH is absorbing the alpha and killing the mob.  Sometimes not even that if you have enough control and debuff.  Because when done right, the difficulty level is set right all is firing the mobs go down fast or are controlled fast.  Doesn't matter if you are 8 tankers, stalkers, Scrappers, brutes, controllers, defenders, blasters or anything else.

 

The whole herding to here, or let me gather or look at me while I let this mob pound me isn't the best way to play this game. Now having said this sometimes that's necessary if your teams too weak which brings me back to trying to do stuff too excessively difficult to benefit a team that has no business trying to take on such hard content in the first place.

 

That's like complaining about the system being broken because you are breaking it.

 

A good team no matter the make up has little trouble taking on any content.

[Kimuji]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

This guy gets it.

 

A lot don't want tanks fixed, they just want them broken so you can't team without them.  And they don't care what gets nerfed and how it affects anyone to get there.

 

I like the diversity and being able to tank with every AT I play.

Did you even read the answer before giving your +1 to a completely baseless accusation thrown at the wrong person? I have openly spoken against any sort of nerf affecting other ATs in order to make Tankers "better". Since people are too lazy to follow links and more akin to strawmanning I'm gonna quote myself:

On 8/10/2019 at 8:21 PM, Kimuji said:

Like I said you don't make Tankers better by making Brutes less appealing that's a terrible idea. We're not going to change ATs roles. Tank is one of the Brutes attributes if you remove it from them they lose their purpose as an AT. Seriously there are a lot of suggestions on this thread that don't require nerfing other ATs, it's not like destroying Brutes special spot in the game is the only option...

"All that would do is make the Tanker feel better about themself", these are your own words and yet this is exactly what you're recommending. Making Tankers feel better about themselves as the only tanks in the game by removing tanking tools from other ATs...

On 8/10/2019 at 8:44 PM, Kimuji said:

You're turning Brutes into Scrappers that's what it is. And Scappers don't need another variation, we have Stalkers for that. You are just about making Tankers the only tanks in the game. That's very "make the Tanker feel better about themself" to me, so no it's not psychosomatic indeed it's the futile satisfcation of being the only AT to properly fill that role.

I'm a Tanker player, I have twice as many Tankers as I have Brutes. I like tanking so much that most of my Brutes end up being built like I would build a Tanker. I like that we've got different options regarding that role, you're just asking to remove diversity and flavors to the game.

On 8/11/2019 at 12:27 AM, Kimuji said:

Brutes have always been able to do it almost as well as Tankers, the only difference between Tankers and Brutes regarding aggro management since day one is Gauntlet, that's all. Brutes were noticeably squishier than Tankers, and they still are at early and mid game. What changed everything is the IO system. This is the culprit not the taunt capablities of Brutes, it's the stupid amount of bonuses you can squeeze out the IO system. So because IOs are broken we're gonna break some ATs in order to fix it? No it's just adding one more entry to the list of broken things in the game.

And this just for what? For a few players who can't suffer the presence of other competent tanks outiside their own Tanker. Just like Defenders have to deal with the existence of Corruptors, Tankers have to tolerate the presence of Brutes on a similar role.

No there is no big difference between the Tanker/Brute "connundrum" and the Defender/Corruptor situation, yes Defenders have higher bonuses but does it matter that much when you reach end game when everybody has accumulated tons of + def/res/recovery/recharge bonuses through IOs? No it doesn't, Defenders buffs/debuffs/heals become overkill just like the Tankers defenses become overkill and  allows Brutes to catch up. Just like Tankers Defender have a clear edge until end game. Same story.

You're just limiting players options. And it's not going to make Tankers more appealing, because let's not kid ourselves for a lot of people the main reason to make a Tanker is to feel immortal not to be the team protector the AT is supposed to be. Tanking is a playstyle, I've seen Brutes actually trying to protect the team and some Tankers not giving a shit when a purple boss start murdering the back liners. And I'm ready to bet that a lot of these Brutes players are also Tankers players. Even when tanking is your thing you can appreciate a bit a variety, that's what Brutes and Tankers are for. I as for one appreciate to be able to stop rerolling Tankers again and again and still do some good taking with another AT.

Again there are many suggestions on this thread let's not lie and pretend that altering the purpose of Brutes by making them barely better than Scrappers for aggro management beats them all...

Is that proof enough?

Edited September 2, 2019 by Kimuji

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Kimuji said:

Did you even read the answer before giving your +1 to a completely baseless accusation thrown at the wrong person? I have openly spoken against any sort of nerf affecting other ATs in order to make Tankers "better". Since people are too lazy to follow links and more akin to strawmanning I'm gonna quote myself:

Is that proof enough?

Apologies, but I stand by my statement.  Not necessarily directed at you then, but it holds true for some.

 

Do you realize how many have replied in this topic, or even on that page?  It's not lazy its mass confusion.

 

But again, I apologize. 

[Kimuji]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Apologies, but I stand by my statement.  Not necessarily directed at you then, but it holds true for some.

 

Do you realize how many have replied in this topic, or even on that page?  It's not lazy its mass confusion.

 

But again, I apologize. 

Apologies accepted.

[Profit]

9 hours ago, Infinitum said:

A lot don't want tanks fixed, they just want them broken so you can't team without them.  And they don't care what gets nerfed and how it affects anyone to get there.

Do any of my changes do this?

[Profit]

11 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Profit,

 

After reading that flavor of the month thread, we are henceforth not allowed to use Spines/Fire Brutes as a metric for this thread (I know one Spines/Fire that is not a pure farm creature, however, I am certain that most of them are just farm monkeys).

Roflmao Done.

[Infinitum]

49 minutes ago, Profit said:

Do any of my changes do this?

I love my tanks so any changes to them without nerfs to my other ATs im good with cause I will benefit also.

 

Like I said if my tanks are happier so am I.  But I don't won't it to come at the expense of my brutes, stalkers or Scrappers.

[Cementi]

On 9/1/2019 at 9:59 AM, Infinitum said:

This is a bit of an overexaggeration.

 

If you were on a brute and you had a kinetic or anything that put you at the damage cap, the rest of the team is still killing the mob faster than either brute or tank.

 

Unless you are wanting to centerpiece yourself yourself on the team doing the much higher content for them because they can't.

If you are in any situation that requires you to pop inspirations to survive the alpha damage output isn't your biggest worry anyway.

 

The gap in damage between tank and brute isn't so great that it will hurt the tanks survivability.  It just won't, because if that were the case the team can't support the content you are playing anyway, which also means the brute isn't getting buffs to increase damage anyway because the team is already dead.

 

If the team does support the content brute, or tank damage is irrelevant at that point because the team is already killing faster than either single target can surpass - which is a good thing ultimately.

 

Absorb agro, alpha let the team do the rest move on to the next one.

This was the full line.

Their small difference in surviveabilty is easily mitigated. The first alpha is the only problem you have to contend with and that is easily mitigated with inspirations or teammate buffs as your actual surviveability caps are the same as a tankers.

You chopped it off after inspirations to validate your opinion. If your going to quote someone at least have the courtesy of quoting the whole sentence. If a Brute does drop it usually ends up being during the alpha. If they can mitigate that, regardless of how they will outperform the tank as they will kill things much faster. Yes of course the team helps, the brute just helps accelerate over what a tank can do. There are lots of ways to soften an alpha strike. However in a prolonged fight where stuff is not dying fast enough resources become thing. Endurance wanes, your support classes too, maybe the heal they need to save you is on cooldown when you get spiked because they were forced to use it to save you last fight.

1. Damage being it's own form of mitigation is really not much of an exageration. Probably more noticeable on a solo situation or small or low damage team. So situationally it is noticeable I guess. If your baseline is fully IO'd max level toons you may not be noticing it as much I guess.

 

2. Nothing about my opinions of the Tank vs Brute comparisons have anything to do with "being the center piece". It's really simple both, played correctly can tank just fine. One cannot do the same amount of damage.

3. Again probably more noticeable in solo and small team or low damage applications but there are situations that stuff dying fast does indeed make it easier to survive a fight. So long as you can manage the initial alpha.

 

4. So what your saying is if the team is going along fine it does not matter if the tank is under performing? I honestly do not even know how to make a counter arguement to that.

 

5. Not really much of a point. I mean this is the basis for how combat works in this game. Really has nothing to do with how brutes out perform tanks.
 

[Cementi]

Also before anyone accuses me of it as well I think Brutes are fine and should not be nerfed.

I just feel Tanks need something more.

[Cementi]

On 9/1/2019 at 9:14 AM, Leogunner said:

You don't need it.  Only about half my characters are IO'd for defense and none of them are capped for defense (my magic number is 1 purple from cap).  My blasters have contingency to deal with aggro and often times a lot of it.  I think the only characters of mine that don't are my Defenders who usually more or less have to dip out (Phase Shift, Personal Force Field, etc) when focused on but some can certainly tank.  And ontop of that, everybody has inspirations.  And players were doing soft cap defense before IOs.  Inspirations...

 

I'd say an Offensively built Tanker (not even min/maxed, just something like Fire Melee paired with something offensive for armor) vs a Utility built Brute (basically, non-min/maxed, built to keep going rather than topping charts) on any team without /Kinetics (if you need a kinetics on your team just to function smoothly, I can start to formulate your problem)

 

You forgot to add some witty comment of "I have 5 reasons to.." or something to justify giving that many reasons so now you just look sans-wit here.  If you were just replying to individual statements from the quoted, you could have quoted those particular sentences and said the above once...or at the very least, if you were numbering your replies to coincide with a quote's separated statements, you could have numbered the quoted paragraphs for simplicity and clarity.  I mean, if you're going to try and insult someone, maybe put a little effort into it?  Or at least not make yourself so insult-able.

I actually was replying to each quote point. I prefer not to snip posts so the context is not lost. Though I do sometimes trim stuff down to a particular sentence or paragraph. 

I will admit that I was being lazy by not splitting it up or numbering each point. I also was likely over estimating some peoples intellect and assuming they would be able to figure out that I was responding to each point. That witty enough for you?

Also I was not trying to insult anyone in my previous post.

I hope this clears things up for you. Most likely won't.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Cementi

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Cementi said:

Also before anyone accuses me of it as well I think Brutes are fine and should not be nerfed.

I just feel Tanks need something more.

No you are just for nerfing IOs as you stated in another thread all for balancing around PVP because you cant enjoy that anymore.

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Cementi said:

This was the full line.

Their small difference in surviveabilty is easily mitigated. The first alpha is the only problem you have to contend with and that is easily mitigated with inspirations or teammate buffs as your actual surviveability caps are the same as a tankers.

You chopped it off after inspirations to validate your opinion. If your going to quote someone at least have the courtesy of quoting the whole sentence. If a Brute does drop it usually ends up being during the alpha. If they can mitigate that, regardless of how they will outperform the tank as they will kill things much faster. Yes of course the team helps, the brute just helps accelerate over what a tank can do. There are lots of ways to soften an alpha strike. However in a prolonged fight where stuff is not dying fast enough resources become thing. Endurance wanes, your support classes too, maybe the heal they need to save you is on cooldown when you get spiked because they were forced to use it to save you last fight.

1. Damage being it's own form of mitigation is really not much of an exageration. Probably more noticeable on a solo situation or small or low damage team. So situationally it is noticeable I guess. If your baseline is fully IO'd max level toons you may not be noticing it as much I guess.

 

2. Nothing about my opinions of the Tank vs Brute comparisons have anything to do with "being the center piece". It's really simple both, played correctly can tank just fine. One cannot do the same amount of damage.

3. Again probably more noticeable in solo and small team or low damage applications but there are situations that stuff dying fast does indeed make it easier to survive a fight. So long as you can manage the initial alpha.

 

4. So what your saying is if the team is going along fine it does not matter if the tank is under performing? I honestly do not even know how to make a counter arguement to that.

 

5. Not really much of a point. I mean this is the basis for how combat works in this game. Really has nothing to do with how brutes out perform tanks.
 

Again, if your team is operating correctly neither tank damage or brute damage is going to matter because there are other ATs that can do it better than both, its not about underperforming with either, its about blasters, controllers, scrappers, and even stalkers having lots more damage than either tank or brute which in that scenario will outperform either, so that relegates both to being the alpha absorbing spearhead of the team - which isnt required either honestly.

 

I didnt chop it off to validate anything, your long winded baseless rambling exaggerating how you think tanks are terrible just didnt deserve a response aside from the one i made, my point is, if you are popping inspirations to stay alive to survive an alpha which is exactly what you said, you really dont know what you are doing in the first place with a tank or a brute and should probably not play either one.

[Cementi]

On 9/2/2019 at 10:51 PM, Infinitum said:

No you are just for nerfing IOs as you stated in another thread all for balancing around PVP because you cant enjoy that anymore.

Only replying to you due to the off topic nature of your post.

It's not just pvp though IO's certainly did mostly remove any other role than spike damage from pvp. So yes I feel that the current state makes pvp a waste of time. It's possible it evolved beyond that but without changes I doubt it. *shrug* I enjoy varied roles in my pvp instead of just more damage. Not ashamed to say that nor admit that I won't touch pvp in it's current state.

Imo no archtype that does not at least have a defensive powerset, either or primary or secondary, should be able to soft cap defenses.

These are simply opinions. Not sure why you are getting so worked up over them. As before I am simply expressing my opinions and those who will be making or not making the changes can do as they will. The game is plenty fun as is......well except pvp.

Having multitudes of IO sets that are worthless, many not even able to be sold for 5 influence let alone the salvage they are worth because they don't have defense bonuses should be all the evidence you need that the IO system is broken. I don't really think this is opinion. I do not expect perfection but in a even reasonably balanced loot system you would have at the very least niche applications for some of the other bonuses. CoX does not have that, other than procs and such it is basicly defense bonus or bust, well and some nods to recharge if you can get it. This to me indicates a poorly designed system that should be revamped. This is a factor outside of pvp as well. It just does not destroy the gameplay in the same way hence why I can enjoy the game just not the pvp in the game.

I don't have nerfbat nightmares though so not really concerned about it either way.

Flame on!!!

Edited September 6, 2019 by Cementi

[Infinitum]

12 hours ago, Cementi said:

Only replying to you due to the off topic nature of your post.

It's not just pvp though IO's certainly did mostly remove any other role than spike damage from pvp. So yes I feel that the current state makes pvp a waste of time. It's possible it evolved beyond that but without changes I doubt it. *shrug* I enjoy varied roles in my pvp instead of just more damage. Not ashamed to say that nor admit that I won't touch pvp in it's current state.

Imo no archtype that does not at least have a defensive powerset, either or primary or secondary, should be able to soft cap defenses.

These are simply opinions. Not sure why you are getting so worked up over them. As before I am simply expressing my opinions and those who will be making or not making the changes can do as they will. The game is plenty fun as is......well except pvp.

Having multitudes of IO sets that are worthless, many not even able to be sold for 5 influence let alone the salvage they are worth because they don't have defense bonuses should be all the evidence you need that the IO system is broken. I don't really think this is opinion. I do not expect perfection but in a even reasonably balanced loot system you would have at the very least niche applications for some of the other bonuses. CoX does not have that, other than procs and such it is basicly defense bonus or bust, well and some nods to recharge if you can get it. This to me indicates a poorly designed system that should be revamped. This is a factor outside of pvp as well. It just does not destroy the gameplay in the same way hence why I can enjoy the game just not the pvp in the game.

I don't have nerfbat nightmares though so not really concerned about it either way.

Flame on!!!

Im not worked up friend,

 

You are the one posting a doctoral thesis there talking about no non defense set should be able to soft cap to the system being broken when thousands of us utilize it, have fun with it and think its fine.

 

So agree to disagree partner.  You obviously have issues with sets, PvP not being the way you like it and defense soft capping. 

 

I would suggest to try to find a way to enjoy it as is because those are non issues for the majority.

[tellania]

I'm a fan of higher cap on taunt (5 is too small), or increase the aoe of taunt for tanks (above 400).  I do like the idea of bruising (either make it stack, or give a chance of the other attacks to do bruising).

 

BUT ... the one power I would have like to see, for a tank is an AOE absorbing mechanic.

 

If a foe use an AOE, the tanker absorbs the full brunt of it (aka  100% damage), but reduces damage to the rest of the team (I'll say 20%, but it can be more or less).

Like the tank blocking the damage for the rest of the team.   Multiple tankers can further reduce team damage by a similar amount. (e.g. 2 tanks will reduce damage to the team from the AOE by 40% or the remainder amount).  Simple example: 100 pt aoe hits the team (and 2 tanks).   tanker 1 reduces it by 20% (80 pts).   2nd tanker reduce it by 20% (either 20 pts of original, or 20% of remainder).   So, the team will get hit by either 60 points, or (100-20)*(1-.2)=64 points.

 

Zero benefit to the tank, lots of benefit to the team.   Multiple tanks provide more benefit (all tank team, provides no benefit to each other ...).

Team of 8 (7 tanks, 1 squishy) would give the squishy AOE damage of 4.7 (0.8^7), while tanks still take full damage.

 

 

[MunkiLord]

23 minutes ago, tellania said:

I'm a fan of higher cap on taunt (5 is too small), or increase the aoe of taunt for tanks (above 400).  I do like the idea of bruising (either make it stack, or give a chance of the other attacks to do bruising).

 

BUT ... the one power I would have like to see, for a tank is an AOE absorbing mechanic.

 

If a foe use an AOE, the tanker absorbs the full brunt of it (aka  100% damage), but reduces damage to the rest of the team (I'll say 20%, but it can be more or less).

Like the tank blocking the damage for the rest of the team.   Multiple tankers can further reduce team damage by a similar amount. (e.g. 2 tanks will reduce damage to the team from the AOE by 40% or the remainder amount).  Simple example: 100 pt aoe hits the team (and 2 tanks).   tanker 1 reduces it by 20% (80 pts).   2nd tanker reduce it by 20% (either 20 pts of original, or 20% of remainder).   So, the team will get hit by either 60 points, or (100-20)*(1-.2)=64 points.

 

Zero benefit to the tank, lots of benefit to the team.   Multiple tanks provide more benefit (all tank team, provides no benefit to each other ...).

Team of 8 (7 tanks, 1 squishy) would give the squishy AOE damage of 4.7 (0.8^7), while tanks still take full damage.

 

 

I like this idea!

[Cutter]

I made a suggestion a while back (in one of the other tank threads) about adding some kind of bodyguard mode to tank primaries, and more recently (in this thread) about adding some team utility to tank primaries in the form of ally-only buffs. This second idea has precedent in the form of Grant Cover (Shields) and Ground Zero (Rad). For the other sets, I wanted to take existing powers and tack on an extra, in-theme, team buff, rather than make radical changes and/or replacements. I had a few minutes at the end of the work day so I thought I'd put together a really rough set of ideas for opinions:

• Bio Armor – DNA Siphon – team heal, +end
• Dark Armor – Cloak of Darkness – team stealth (and maybe +def)
• Electric Armor – Power Sink – team +end, +rcv
• Fiery Aura – Fiery Embrace – team +dam
• Ice Armor – Energy Absorption – team +end, +def
• Invulnerability – Invincibility – team +tohit
• Radiation Armor – Ground Zero – ally +hp, +hot (no change, I just didn't bother to include the enemy stuff here)
• Shield Defense – Grant Cover – team +def (no change)
• Stone Armor – Rooted – team +mezprot
• Super Reflexes – Quickness – team +rech
• Willpower – Rise to the Challenge – team +regen

Thoughts? Worth pursuing or nah?

[Haijinx]

Not a bad idea, but some of those are toggles, some clicks