An Update from The Homecoming Team

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

No way they'd take over HC.  There's code written by outside parties in HC.  We'd get a blank slate i24 server at best with the HC team completely cut out of the system.  

 

Like I said earlier, they are going to take the data, start their own official server and shut down HC.  You are right about the data being valuable, but I don't think they'll use it like you think.  

Not completely sold this is a given - NC would still have to maintain it and that is an expense for them.   Who knows?  They may see it as not worth the effort.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, justicebeliever said:

That SQL example is not the same and you know it...They license by the processing power not the user...so it's irrelevant the # of users...that's an apples to pizza comparison...

Well, yes - it is the same.  You're using software that someone else has licensed from Microsoft as part of said licensing agreement.  This is what SSAS is all about.

[Omega-202]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Not completely sold this is a given - NC would still have to maintain it and that is an expense for them.   Who knows?  They may see it as not worth the effort.

That's what the data is for.  As I said earlier, they'll hand the data to the bean counters in accounting, take a look at how WoW classic is doing and decide from there.  If its not profitable based on their projections, they'll ask for a nominal license fee from HC instead.  

Edited August 8, 2019 by Omega-202

[justicebeliever]

Just now, Rathulfr said:

 

What difference does it make it the non-profit is providing a video game or some other kind of service?  What if the video game is the service it provides?  There's nothing in non-profit law that prevents a non-profit organization from hosting video games.  That's not what defines the nature of the non-profit organization.

 

I'll give you an example: Homecoming's City of Heroes is allowing people outside of the license entity permission to use their software, SQL Server.  Every time you logon and play, you're using SQL Server.

 

It's the mission that defines a non-profit...It's pretty clear and well settled IRS law...otherwise it's for-profit.  So yes, anyone can provide a service...but only if that service meets one of the IRS definitions for Tax Exempt, can it get what most of us call a non-profit...Technically, a non-profit can be any entity that is registered in every state that it solicits funds from...You can be a non-profit and still be a fully taxable organization according to the IRS...

 

SQL server (at the enterprise level) isn't licensed according to users, so it's irrelevant...please provide a per-user example...

[Duuk]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

Not completely sold this is a given - NC would still have to maintain it and that is an expense for them.   Who knows?  They may see it as not worth the effort.

Which is why my guess (and I'm not involved) is that the negotiations will be:

NCSoft gives their stamp of approval to HC, making HC the "Official City of Heroes" legacy servers, which protects NCSoft's IP/Copywrite/Trademark because it is actively in use AND acknowledged by both parties, so they can still cease and desist everyone else.

HC is required to send monitoring reports with player statistics to NCS.

There will probably be restrictions on Marvel/DC characters again to protect NCSoft, since HC will be Official.

The HC team will be able to develop mostly how they want, but they might have to get minor approval if they want to do wild stuff to the IP (kill off named characters, etc).

 

NCSoft will decide to make a City of Heroes 2 based on the success of the HC team.

[justicebeliever]

4 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Well, yes - it is the same.  You're using software that someone else has licensed from Microsoft as part of said licensing agreement.  This is what SSAS is all about.

Yes...well, unfortunately CoH isn't a SSAS, it is a client/server application with end users and the licensing agreement has always been between the end user and the IP holder...So it's not the same...You can say it is all you want, but it's not a per-user application...And I am really not sure what you are debating here @ShardWarriorI'm thinking you are just stirring the pot...Do you believe that NCSoft is going to allow HC to not have end user licensing?  Rather than just rebut my own statements, what are your thoughts?

Edited August 8, 2019 by justicebeliever

[ShardWarrior]

Unlimited user licensing is not at all uncommon in the software world.  Not sure where this notion of it being the norm is coming from.

[Rathulfr]

Just now, justicebeliever said:

Yes...well, unfortunately CoH isn't a SSAS, it is a client/server application with end users and the licensing agreement has always been between the end user and the IP holder...So it's not the same...You can say it is all you want, but it's not a per-user application...

 

And ultimately, I think that's what the Homecoming team is trying to negotiate with NCSoft.  The lawyers on both sides are trying to hammer out a licensing agreement that works properly.  None of that changes the status of Homecoming as an entity: it just changes the legal status of the services they provide.

 

[ShardWarrior]

3 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Yes...well, unfortunately CoH isn't a SSAS, it is a client/server application with end users and the licensing agreement has always been between the end user and the IP holder...So it's not the same...You can say it is all you want, but it's not a per-user application...And I am really not sure what you are debating here @ShardWarriorI'm thinking you are just stirring the pot...Do you believe that NCSoft is going to allow HC to not have end user licensing?  Rather than just rebut my own statements, what are your thoughts? 

Not here to stir anything, just participating in the discussion and providing my own personal point of view.  If that clashes with your opinion, there is nothing I can do about that.

 

I've no idea what NC will or will not do.  I'll leave it in the capable hands of the HC team who are in the thick of it to work out the details.

[justicebeliever]

1 minute ago, Rathulfr said:

 

And ultimately, I think that's what the Homecoming team is trying to negotiate with NCSoft.  The lawyers on both sides are trying to hammer out a licensing agreement that works properly.  None of that changes the status of Homecoming as an entity: it just changes the legal status of the services they provide.

 

Who said otherwise?  Homecoming is not a registered non-profit, nor is it a tax-exempt organization...I don't think either of those will change...

[_NOPE_]

1 minute ago, justicebeliever said:

Who said otherwise?  Homecoming is not a registered non-profit, nor is it a tax-exempt organization...I don't think either of those will change...

 

On 7/6/2019 at 11:42 AM, Cipher said:

As explained last month, we are still working towards becoming a fully charitable non-profit. The next move we need to take to achieve this is to file to open the NPO and file for 501(c)(3) status. We’re still working out some of the details and legalities, but we’re actively working towards it! 

 

[justicebeliever]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

Not here to stir anything, just participating in the discussion and providing my own personal point of view.  If that clashes with your opinion, there is nothing I can do about that.

 

I've no idea what NC will or will not do.  I'll leave it in the capable hands of the HC team who are in the thick of it to work out the details.

If we have no idea what they are going to do, then I'm not sure why we have a back and forth...I agree, who knows what they are going to do, and I have stated so myself...

[TonyV]

2 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

NCSoft and its representatives have a fiduciary duty to maximize profits for the company.

/offtopic

 

That's not true, by the way. A "fiduciary duty" is a specific legal term, and corporations are not legally obligated to maximize profit for shareholders, the company itself, or anyone else.

 

Obviously, that's usually a good idea at least to some sane degree to keep your shareholders happy, but it's totally up to the board and officers of a company to decide what its goals are, and they don't have to include maximizing (or even making) profit.

[Rathulfr]

1 minute ago, justicebeliever said:

Who said otherwise?  Homecoming is not a registered non-profit, nor is it a tax-exempt organization...I don't think either of those will change...

 

You said otherwise!  You said that Homecoming could not become a non-profit if they reach a licensing agreement with NCSoft.  I disagree with you, because non-profits routinely use licensing agreements to provide services.  The acquisition of a licensing agreement doesn't change a non-profit organization into a for-profit organization.  That's what I was calling you out on.

 

[Wolfbeast]

48 minutes ago, VicZantosa said:

I would very much like for the Homecoming guys to allow us to export existing characters, just so I don't have to powerlevel on my own or someone else's server.

I asked HC like a month ago when I had my shard set up and production-ready. I never got a reply, and I think that's about what one can expect. It effective player-binding.

[VicZantosa]

32 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

I can appreciate all of that.  Much of your story, matches my own with regards to CoH.  But, try to hang long enough to know what the real deal is before going off on your own.  Having a thriving community of thousands of players is an important part of the game that you would not be able to replicate on a private server.  Sure, you could get friends to join, but it comes down to availability.  Not everyone is always able to play when you are, so in a live server situation like Homecoming, that's where you join other teams, TFs, Trials, etc. 

 

And, for the record, you wouldn't have to powerlevel characters on your own server.  As the admin, you could take them straight to L50, and give them all T4 incarnate powers if you wish.  There are no limits in your own server.

 

I appreciate that, and that's actually the only thing that's keeping me from pulling the trigger on firing up my own server.  The community is a huge part of the CoH experience that can't be replicated with just software, and if I fire up my own server, I would need to open it to multiple people to make a community.  This would also open me up to legal issues bigger than just "I'm running pirated software for my own use in a sandbox that nobody can see".  I assumed that as your own GM you can just make it happen, but I haven't played with it.  I would really like to have this community succeed on Homecoming, and I really hope their lawyer is a demonic shark monster and can make this happen without ruining the hope this has generated in my house.  Both of our kids are now on with their own accounts, it would be a giant loss if this falls through.

[Abraxus]

1 minute ago, Wolfbeast said:

I asked HC like a month ago when I had my shard set up and production-ready. I never got a reply, and I think that's about what one can expect. It effective player-binding.

But, as I mentioned in one of the previous pages of this thread, as an Admin on your own server, you can boost your characters straight to L50, and give them whatever you want them to.  You would not have to power-level anything, or start from scratch.  You use the locally stored costume file, and power customization to get the character just as he is now, and use your god-mode super powered Admin rights to do the rest.  It's your server, and you have total control over things like that.

[Abraxus]

2 minutes ago, VicZantosa said:

I appreciate that, and that's actually the only thing that's keeping me from pulling the trigger on firing up my own server.  The community is a huge part of the CoH experience that can't be replicated with just software, and if I fire up my own server, I would need to open it to multiple people to make a community.  This would also open me up to legal issues bigger than just "I'm running pirated software for my own use in a sandbox that nobody can see".  I assumed that as your own GM you can just make it happen, but I haven't played with it.  I would really like to have this community succeed on Homecoming, and I really hope their lawyer is a demonic shark monster and can make this happen without ruining the hope this has generated in my house.  Both of our kids are now on with their own accounts, it would be a giant loss if this falls through.

I think we all have the highest hopes for how this will go.  But, all we can do for now is be patient, keep the faith, and keep on playing!

[Remidi]

Okay, a couple of points.

 

First, a lot of you have the wrong licensing model.  You are thinking in terms of software, when the issue is intellectual property.  Think of it this way - when you walk into a store and see an Elmo doll, Sesame Street did not make that doll.  They sold a license to a toy company that allows them to use the Elmo intellectual property to make Elmo dolls.  Games are the same way.  The negotiation is over letting HC and/or others use NcSoft's IP without being sued for violating copyright and trademark laws.

 

Second, those laws.  In the US, if a company does not defend their trademarks and copyrights, they can be considered public domain and the company loses the right to them.  Therefore, NcSoft had to do something if they didn't want to surrender the game completely, which no sensible company would do.  Negotiations gives us a chance to keep playing our game.

[Yoru-hime]

Getting away from the "NCSoft is the devil" mindset, there's a group of people on their end trying to figure out what to do about all this and probably feeling like they're in a no-win situation. Whether it's lost intellectual property or a public relations hit, most of the potential outcomes of this scenario aren't actually positive for NCSoft. They're trying to find a solution that doesn't hurt their company somehow or at least minimizes the damage, but that's really hard to define in this scenario. I think what's probably going on over on the other side of the fence is a lot of trying to assign value to things that don't have a clear price tag and looking for the best outcome of an undesirable situation.

 

Since we're all speculating, here's what I think they're trying to figure out on the NCSoft side:

 

How much real value is left in the property in question? What are they really fighting over here? Ancient code sitting on a shelf somewhere and character images they were never going to use again anyway? Or something with tangible value that could cause losses if they didn't try to regain control of it?

 

How much harm will the negative publicity of bringing down the hammer on HC do to existing NCSoft publicity efforts in the US? The Homecoming release news reached a lot of MMO gamers. It's safe to assume that news reading "NCSoft is a big corporate bully who still hates players and killed their server" would reach an equally large audience. On the other hand, news of a deal with HC might incline those same readers to think that NCSoft is being kinda cool about this. If there has been meaningful turnover at the company, there may be a desire to shed the reputation as a company that frequently abandons games and their communities and repaint themselves as more pro-players. That might entice them to hand over the keys to an otherwise worthless IP.

 

Is there a way to leverage a deal into future revenue? Homecoming has proved that there's still demand for this game (albeit at a zero price point). In business, demand generally equates to potential opportunity, so understanding it is very valuable. Can they gather information here that could be used to better craft future games to succeed in the US market?

 

Does NCSoft want to legitimize this effort and possibly encourage future acts of piracy? Let's be honest, someone stole code from NCSoft and these people have been knowingly using that to power their efforts. Does NCSoft risk creating copycats if they treat HC like a respectable partner?

 

What potential legal liability is there in partnering with the HC group? What if this group of hobbyists and volunteers makes a major mistake? Would NCSoft somehow be on the hook for that?

 

As has been noted, from NCSoft's perspective, there's got to be a strong self-defensive impulse to just slap a C&D letter on this whole thing and be done with it (and, like it or not, they already have the absolute right to do this), so there's SOMETHING altering the math in their heads to the point where they're at least talking about a deal. Personally, I'm cautiously optimistic.

[justicebeliever]

3 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

You said otherwise!  You said that Homecoming could not become a non-profit if they reach a licensing agreement with NCSoft.  I disagree with you, because non-profits routinely use licensing agreements to provide services.  The acquisition of a licensing agreement doesn't change a non-profit organization into a for-profit organization.  That's what I was calling you out on.

 

We are going round and round...I'll just repeat the following:

1.) I'm going to assume Homecoming is NOT a tax-exempt or registered non-profit since they have yet to provide those details...Saying you are going to do a thing doesn't make it so until you've done it...So far, there is no Homecoming Server registered with the IRS as Tax Exempt...nor are they registered as a non-profit in my state...

 

2.) Nothing they are doing with NCSoft will change their legal status...thus they are staying a for-profit SMLLC until stated otherwise

 

The IRS Tax Code doesn't support HC's mission to become Tax Exempt as they currently operate.  You cannot have a Tax Exempt organization for the sole purpose of provide software to a player base...If you disagree, please provide an example...

 

I am less familiar with all software licensing models, however, I am unfamiliar with any per-user model, where someone who is not an agent of the IP holder can just grant access to the IP willy nilly.  Again, if you disagree, please provide an example...

 

They can keep going I suppose as they have been seeking gifts from the playerbase while become an agent of NCSoft who provides them the licensing rights for free...

 

Also becoming an agent of NCSoft, doesn't mean that they are owned or controlled by NCSoft...just that NCSoft has control over how their IP is deployed and has delegated the operations of that to a separate entity...

 

It's fine to just "disagree with me" or make suppositions about my experience with non-profits or software licensing, but if want to have a conversation, please provide evidence...If you like, I can point you to the IRS Tax Code, it's surprisingly easy to understand when it comes to non-profits...

 

If you just want to disagree without provide an actual counterpoint (like an example), then I'm out...Knock yourself silly getting the last word...

 

 

[Wolfbeast]

1 minute ago, Abraxus said:

But, as I mentioned in one of the previous pages of this thread, as an Admin on your own server, you can boost your characters straight to L50, etc

Yeah, and that will not actually get you your character in the same state unless you explicitly and painstakingly manually grant all the badged, progress towards badges, story arc progress, salvage, recipes, etc etc etc. -- everybody knows that just boosting a new character to 50 doesn't get you at the same spot you would be with a proper export/import/transfer. XP and inf is not everything.

It also doesn't help anyone who would like to swap from HC to some other shard but isn't admin of it. So multiply that by the number of characters and the number of players who want to swap. Without an export of the characters that is simply in no way feasible.

[Widower]

13 minutes ago, Wolfbeast said:

I asked HC like a month ago when I had my shard set up and production-ready. I never got a reply, and I think that's about what one can expect. It effective player-binding.

There was a whole discussion on this in a previous announcement which you can read here.

Edited August 8, 2019 by GM Widower

[justicebeliever]

Just now, GM Widower said:

There was a whole discussion on this in a previous announcement which you can read here.

That just links to @Number Six's profile...

[Wolfbeast]

Sorry if I don't religiously follow every thread on this forum.