An Update from The Homecoming Team

[Williwaw]

8 minutes ago, GM Capocollo said:

Knuckles the Echidna.

 

I actually played a Scrapper on the Live servers who was based loosely on Knuckles (but she was Spines/Regen, not Claws/Regen).  I never got her very far.  (I never got a Scrapper or Stalker to 50, just Brutes and one Tanker)

[justicebeliever]

58 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

copycats here aren't being sold as the real deal.  you're not Batman or Spiderman running around in Metropolis fighting Brainiac or the Kingpin.  And forget about the Marvel suit.  That was years ago.  marvel was a different company back then and was looking to break into the game industry.  They've got enough products out there on the market now.  I doubt they will even bat an eye over this.

Doesn’t matter if it’s being sold as the real deal...that has no bearing on copyright...selling something that is fake as real is forgery, not copyright infringement.

 

and the the point of the marvel suit was that they convinced NCSoft it was in their best interests to enforce infringements... there was enough legal standing to do then and it’s likely still the case.

 

i don’t think Marvel or DC are going to bother us either and I have said so on this thread, but ultimately it’s really not up to you or me...

Edited August 17, 2019 by justicebeliever
Spelling

[starro]

36 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Doesn’t matter if it’s being sold as the real deal...that has no bearing on copyright...selling something that is fake as real is forgery, not copyright infringement.

 

and the the point of the marvel suit was that they convinced NCSoft it was in their best interests to enforce infringements... there was enough legal standing to do then and it’s likely still the case.

 

i don’t think Marvel or DC are going to bother us either and I have said so on this thread, but ultimately it’s really not up to you or me...

Pretty safe to say Marvel (now Disney) is not as cash-hungry as they were in early 2000s. However, Disney will vigorously defend any trademark perceived as infringed, even a day care center chain painting their characters likeness on their walls.  DC (Warner Bros) -  who knows what the hell they are doing with their comics and movies these days but they keep shutting down underperforming properties and generating lackluster media in all its forms.  ...but with a rich character creator like COH, who would NOT want to make an original character??

 

[ZacKing]

48 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Doesn’t matter if it’s being sold as the real deal...that has no bearing on copyright...selling something that is fake as real is forgery, not copyright infringement. 

 

and the the point of the marvel suit was that they convinced NCSoft it was in their best interests to enforce infringements... there was enough legal standing to do then and it’s likely still the case.

 

i don’t think Marvel or DC are going to bother us either and I have said so on this thread, but ultimately it’s really not up to you or me...

I'm not talking about selling as in paying cash for it.  Someone virtually cosplaying can say they are green arrow or the flash or the Hulk all they want, they aren't the real thing. 

 

There is a very simple solution to this issue as I see it.  The devs can add every variation of every copyrighted or trademarked character name into the restricted list and program restrictions costume restrictions for every variant of every comic hero including powers combo.   When people start creating about the lack of customization, the GMs can forward those comments to the costume police and have them explain how someone making a cosplay toon is hurting them.

 

People are making cosplays all over the place.  I see them in CO, Neverwinter, STO, WoW, you name it.  No one is losing any sleep over them there.  This is more about someone feeling they need to dictate to others what they should and should do as far as I'm concerned.  I see way more offensively named and themed characters in here than I do cosplays.  Nobody seems to object to those at all even though they could just as easily lead to a lawsuit.  

[PaxArcana]

5 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

The inverse of this is also true - it clearly showed those who have over an over inflated sense of self importance and put their enjoyment of the game above others.  Those people took it upon themselves to dictate to others what they should and should not do because they don't like it.

Not because I "don't like it".  Because it is actually illegal.  And because that general kind of behavior could hurt people I know - turning an impersonal "victimless" crime into something entirely different, and less excusable.
 

5 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

I have no qualms whatsoever admitting I make clones.  What is the harm in it?  How is it affecting you from enjoying the game other than you simply don't like it?

For one, as I said, it is an actual illegal thing.  A minor one all around, but ...

 

... I have also known people, on a first-name basis, who rely on the protections of copyright to put a roof over their heads, and food on their table.  So, copyright infringement hits a little close to home.  (No, not people in comics or films, but, still people who relied on copyrights to be able to leverage their creativity into a living.)

 

Thus ... I disapprove of what amounts to theft.  Minor, even petty theft, but still theft.  Because, as I say, I have known some of the people being stolen from, on a fairly close basis.  Which never seems to be true of those who are in favor of infringing others' copyrights ...

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, PaxArcana said:

Not because I "don't like it".  Because it is actually illegal.  And because that general kind of behavior could hurt people I know - turning an impersonal "victimless" crime into something entirely different, and less excusable.

What about the people you don't know whose feelings are going to get hurt?  They don't count.  No need to respond.  I already know the answer 🙂

[ZacKing]

2 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Not because I "don't like it".  Because it is actually illegal.  And because that general kind of behavior could hurt people I know - turning an impersonal "victimless" crime into something entirely different, and less excusable.
 

For one, as I said, it is an actual illegal thing.  A minor one all around, but ...

 

... I have also known people, on a first-name basis, who rely on the protections of copyright to put a roof over their heads, and food on their table.  So, copyright infringement hits a little close to home.  (No, not people in comics or films, but, still people who relied on copyrights to be able to leverage their creativity into a living.)

 

Thus ... I disapprove of what amounts to theft.  Minor, even petty theft, but still theft.  Because, as I say, I have known some of the people being stolen from, on a fairly close basis.  Which never seems to be true of those who are in favor of infringing others' copyrights ...

Going a mile over the posted speed limit is illegal and is more likely to do a ton more harm than cosplaying in a video game.   But I guess you never do that at all.

[ZacKing]

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

What about the people you don't know whose feelings are going to get hurt?  They don't count.  No need to respond.  I already know the answer 🙂

heh of course not.

[PaxArcana]

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

copycats are not being sold

Fun fact about copyright:

 

You don't have to SELL anything, to violate someone's copyrights.  You only have to make an unauthorised copy.

 

If you were to write, draw, etc an actual comic that gained a loyal fanbase of thousands .... and I came along, made some cheap color scans of every issue, then handed them out for completely free on a street corner?  I would have infringed on your copyright ... and, in fact, each separate copy is in turn a separate act of infringement.

 

Copyright literally means "the right to control the making of copies".  If I make those cheap color scans, I have taken that control from you.  That is what infringement means.

[PaxArcana]

8 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

What about the people you don't know whose feelings are going to get hurt?

Person A's hurt feelings, are less important than the risk that Person B's income might be threatened.

 

Which, obviously, isn't going to happen here  ... but it's the same kind of theft, and so, I still care about it.

 

For god's sake, we're most of us here to play ad being HEROES ... we should ALL be pro law-and-order, by our very nature.

[ZacKing]

2 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Fun fact about copyright:

Fun fact for you - this kind of thing happens every single day and nobody cares.  Go anywhere like Las Vegas or LA or NYC and there are cosplayers taking money for posing for photographs and not forking over a penny to the copyright holder.  You ever been to vegas?   There are more Elvis impersonators than there are tourists.  Lisa Marie is not batting an eye.

[ZacKing]

1 minute ago, PaxArcana said:

Person A's hurt feelings, are less important than the risk that Person B's income might be threatened.

  

Which, obviously, isn't going to happen here  ... but it's the same kind of theft, and so, I still care about it.

  

For god's sake, we're most of us here to play ad being HEROES ... we should ALL be pro law-and-order, by our very nature. 

So you have never watched a pirated movie, drove too fast, took a drink when you were under age or anything else even remotely illegal.   Give us a break.

[ShardWarrior]

22 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

For god's sake, we're most of us here to play ad being HEROES ... we should ALL be pro law-and-order, by our very nature. 

This is the crux of it right here - "play as I want you to, or else".  People who don't share a certain viewpoint are not tolerated. 

 

I find it fascinating that you're perfectly ok playing a for all intents and purposes illegal copy of a game, but I get that is tolerated because you don't like NCSoft or whatever.   I guess it is only illegal and stealing if it is something you don't like.

 

Anyhoo, this is probably a separate thread at this point.  We've pretty much derailed this one.

Edited August 17, 2019 by ShardWarrior

[justicebeliever]

13 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I'm not talking about selling as in paying cash for it.  Someone virtually cosplaying can say they are green arrow or the flash or the Hulk all they want, they aren't the real thing. 

Since you quoted me, I’ll assume you are addressing me...

 

I don’t understand this point...of course they aren’t the real thing.  If it’s a copy and you claim it’s official, that’s Forgery.  If you copy somebody else’s stuff and don’t claim it’s the real thing, that Infringement.  Either way, unless it falls into fair use, it’s against the law.

 

17 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

There is a very simple solution to this issue as I see it.  The devs can add every variation of every copyrighted or trademarked character name into the restricted list and program restrictions costume restrictions for every variant of every comic hero including powers combo.   When people start creating about the lack of customization, the GMs can forward those comments to the costume police and have them explain how someone making a cosplay toon is hurting them.

See this the argument that doesn’t help anybody...you can copy lots of different  parts of a character and not infringe.  This just makes you sound petty and uninformed...Not saying you are either of those things, but the argument doesn’t work...

 

21 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

People are making cosplays all over the place.  I see them in CO, Neverwinter, STO, WoW, you name it.  No one is losing any sleep over them there.

And this is where I am most confused, because I have already said that I agree with you...I don’t think anyone’s going to take action, so why are we repeating this?

 

just because something is illegal doesn’t mean it’s a big deal or that anyone is going to take action.  Like was said, going 1 mile of the speed limit is illegal, and you can’t argue with a judge that it’s not a crime, but the truth is you are extremely unlikely to get pulled over or prosecuted for it.  

[Blastit]

2 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Person A's hurt feelings, are less important than the risk that Person B's income might be threatened.

 

Which, obviously, isn't going to happen here  ... but it's the same kind of theft, and so, I still care about it.

 

For god's sake, we're most of us here to play ad being HEROES ... we should ALL be pro law-and-order, by our very nature.

Arguably it is more heroic to not be bound by the letter of the law and to apply every faculty of moral reasoning we have. A hero who knows that something is right or wrong stands their ground regardless of what the rest of society says.

 

Copyright specifically is a framework of law that is not as black and white as you portray it because we're dealing fundamentally with human culture. Copyright law can be used to allow mere individuals some measure of control of the new ideas and art that they work on so that their immediate livelihood isn't taken by someone with superior capacity to reproduce a piece of work but copyright law can also be used to give megabillionaire legal entities the right to control how people engage in art.

[ZacKing]

12 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

I find it fascinating that you're perfectly ok playing a for all intents and purposes illegal copy of a game, but I get that is tolerated because you don't like NCSoft or whatever.   I guess it is only illegal and stealing if it is something you don't like. 

^ hit the nail solidly on the head.

[PaxArcana]

26 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Fun fact for you - this kind of thing happens every single day and nobody cares.

That doesn't make it right.

 

25 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

So you have never watched a pirated movie,

No, I have not.  Nor any of the other things - except when I was 8 or 9, I did shoplift a candy bar a couple of times.

 

But that doesn't matter - I recognize what you're trying to do.  It's a fallacy called "poisoning the well" - if you can show I've ever done anything illegal, then supposedly POOF, I can't ever suggest anyone else NOT do illegal things.

 

Real life doesn't work that way, thankfully.

24 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

This is the crux of it right here - "play as I want you to, or else".

More accurately, "don't be a thief or else I will express my disapprobation of your behavior".

 

Oooooooo, how horrible of me .... to suggest I might hold a negative opinion of something you might do!  ::GASP:: ... the horror!  The sheer injustice of it!

 

26 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I find it fascinating that you're perfectly ok playing a for all intents and purposes illegal copy of a game,

Quasilegal.  NCSoft knows about the existence, and is actively in negotiation with the HC team.  By not issuing a cease-and-desist, they have given tacit (if perhaps very temporary) permission for it to exist.  They can of course withdraw that permission at any time.  But for the moment, these servers are not strictly illegal.  Yet.

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Quasilegal.

Complete BS is a more appropriate word.   You're ok breaking the rules or doing something illegal so long as it is something you like.  No credibility as far as I'm concerned.  You have and are breaking the rules or law or whatever just like everyone else. 

[justicebeliever]

7 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Quasilegal

I don't think this exists in the sense you are describing it...Quasi criminal...treating something as criminal that is in fact a civil violation...like sending someone to jail for contempt of court...

 

Quasi contract means legally treating something as a contract, even though both parties didn't agree to it...

 

AFAIK there is no quasi-legal in the sense of "well it's sort of OK"...there are things where the legality has not been determined yet...this is not one of things...there are things where the legality has not been enforced yet...Homecoming falls here...it's illegal, but no action is being taken...

[ShardWarrior]

9 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Quasilegal.  NCSoft knows about the existence, and is actively in negotiation with the HC team.  By not issuing a cease-and-desist, they have given tacit (if perhaps very temporary) permission for it to exist.  They can of course withdraw that permission at any time.  But for the moment, these servers are not strictly illegal.  Yet. 

LMAO!  What a load of complete and utter nonsense. 

[PaxArcana]

2 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Complete BS is a more appropriate word.

Not at all.

 

Again: NCSoft knows these servers exist.  They know the names and addresses of key people involved with the existence of these servers.  They know who the hosting service is.  Shutting them down would take a very junior paralegal maybe twenty minutes of time with a word processor and a printer, and under $2 in postage.

 

The fact that they not only haven't sent those C&D notices out, and at the same time are actively negotiating with the Homecoming team, creates an implied consent for the servers to exist and operate while those negotiations are being pursued.

 

Thus, while it is not strictly legal ... it also is not strictly illegal.  Hence, "quasilegal".

[ZacKing]

I know BS when I see it.  Bottom line is you are illegally using NCSofts property each and every time you log into the game.  Yet have the audacity to sit on a high horse to dictate to others what they should and should not do is hypocrisy. 

[justicebeliever]

39 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

This is the crux of it right here - "play as I want you to, or else".  People who don't share a certain viewpoint are not tolerated. 

Well, unfortunately, in any shared space there are going to be boundaries...do you want to play completely free to name or costume your character as anything you want...start your own server...conversely, if you don't want to see anyone playing as a copyrighted character, start your own server...If you want to be able to play freely with others, there will be some level of "we are all going to play by some rules or else"...Again, this argument is spurious...There is no enforcement at this time, but if it becomes such, cope or move on...if enforcement doesn't come, cope or move on...

45 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

So you have never watched a pirated movie, drove too fast, took a drink when you were under age or anything else even remotely illegal.   Give us a break.

Agree with Pax on this one...this is completely silly..."Officer, it's OK that I stabbed my neighbor, after all I saw you run a red light last week"...2 wrongs don't make a right...period...Either copyright is right or wrong, but it's irrelevant what somebody does regarding driving, drinking or watching movies...

39 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

Anyhoo, this is probably a separate thread at this point.  We've pretty much derailed this one.

That's the way of threads...the long ones almost always devolve at some point...people finally get bored of posting the same things over and over and move on, or the mods lock it...This particular topic comes up at least once a month, and always devolves into 2 sides both making themselves looking petty and vindictive...

[ZacKing]

11 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Agree with Pax on this one...this is completely silly..."Officer, it's OK that I stabbed my neighbor, after all I saw you run a red light last week"...2 wrongs don't make a right...period...Either copyright is right or wrong, but it's irrelevant what somebody does regarding driving, drinking or watching movies...

You're trying to compare someone making a cosplay to a real life stabbing?  really?

 

11 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Well, unfortunately, in any shared space there are going to be boundaries...do you want to play completely free to name or costume your character as anything you want...start your own server...conversely, if you don't want to see anyone playing as a copyrighted character, start your own server...If you want to be able to play freely with others, there will be some level of "we are all going to play by some rules or else"...Again, this argument is spurious...There is no enforcement at this time, but if it becomes such, cope or move on...if enforcement doesn't come, cope or move on...

Better suggestion - mind your own business and let others mind their own business.  Problem solved for everyone.

[justicebeliever]

4 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

You're trying to compare someone making a cosplay to a real life stabbing?  really?

 

Better suggestion - mind your own business and let others mind their own business.  Problem solved for everyone.

Aren't you saying 2 wrong's make something right?  really?  Pick one side of the argument and stick with it...either stick to talk about copyright and leave the other stuff out, or mush it all together, and be prepared for people to call you on it...

 

Better suggestion...if you don't want people in your business, don't be in a public setting...otherwise, you have norms...

 

And again, I've said that I am on your side of this discussion...but this is why it devolves, because lashing out at people who critiques you instead of having a discussion isn't going to get people to agree with you...