Allow allies to pass through henchmen freely

[WanderingAries]

As heated and two sided as this discussion appears to be, it still looks like simply placing your minions in an open spot is the best compromise. IE: If you're in Atlas, then find a spot where people aren't gathered and park them until you're done.

 

In confined spaces, when the thing is dead pull the pets back to you.

 

Doorways, let the non-MMs through first Unless there's a tactic to it. IE: you're team strategy is to keep from being followed. Say everyone's getting low on HP or End, then shove those pets in the door to allow everyone to start recovering while the AV noms on the pets When everyone recovers you'll have plenty of time to resummons and recover yourself.

 

Either way, it's a conscious burden on that of the MM and it's kind of what they should have expected when they took the AT. If the pets are bugging you, then maybe you have a new-2-the-AT person. Don't be rude, just kinda say "hey, they pets are sorta blocking things".

[Weylin]

I wouldn't say the discussion is heated nor two-sided, it's almost entirely agreeing that pet blocking is a problem and that it would be beneficial to all parties if that were addressed.

The remaining replies are suggestions on how to mitigate the problem until such time as the problem can be properly addressed.

 

😛

[Cidri]

I'd like PCs to be able to move through pets - and not only mastermind pets. I do NOT want pets to be able to move though anything, and mobs should not be able to move through pets either. Strictly something for PCs.

[ZeeHero]

On 8/22/2019 at 9:26 PM, Cidri said:

I'd like PCs to be able to move through pets - and not only mastermind pets. I do NOT want pets to be able to move though anything, and mobs should not be able to move through pets either. Strictly something for PCs.

That would be best of both worlds.

[kelly Rocket]

On 8/15/2019 at 2:32 PM, PaxArcana said:

/

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three second pause for animation

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three second pause for animation

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three second pause for animation

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three second pause for queued power

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/

Even at two entire seconds per keypress (vastly overstating how long they would take, that's ... ::counts up:: ... 21 seconds.  And my Endurance is irrelevant, as I won't be using it for the rest of the mission.

Nor is anyone asking MMs to dismiss pets EVERY time they leave a mission (though, personally, I _do_, just because I don't want to drag the pets through the entire zone on the way to the next door).

Just, if you are going to a store or a trainer (which is not "a mission"), be courteous to your fellow players.  It's a direct equivalent of asking people to turn off their bright-and-loud auto-firing PBAoEs at trainers etc.

If you're not using your endurance for the rest of the mission, you're Masterminding wrong. Sorry.

 

Also please note that for Bots MMs in particular, it takes the Protector Bots quite a while to finish bubbling the whole set of pets, and you, and they're quite vulnerable if you don't wait for that to finish.

[PaxArcana]

3 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

If you're not using your endurance for the rest of the mission, you're Masterminding wrong. Sorry.

Rather than spend my real-world human attention on running an attack chain, I'm spending it micromanaging my pets.  I don't take any attacks from my Primary (well, okay, I take them for the first fifteen levels, 'cause there just aren't enough pets to occupy my time fully, until around level 18), and with some secondaries there aren't any debuffs to speak of (/Force Field, for example).

 

My main, back on Live, was Robotics / Force Field.  I didn't take Repulsion Bomb, and Force Bubble was end-intensive enough I saved it for panic situations.  So the only two powers I had that would affect the enemy directly in any way, were Force Bolt (which hardly counts, and after I have five pets I hardly need it), and Detention Field, which is just situational enough that it's not really needed in every fight.  On Live, I would only Deflection/Insulation bubble the Brute (or Tanker, in co-op zones), because ideally, they would be the only one getting attacked.

 

Mind, I was running full Leadership, plus Dispersion Field.  That was slotted so I was giving around 15% defense just for standing nearby.  Deflection/Insulation were giving almost 17% more, to whoever needed it (again, typically Brute or Tank - nowadays, "the whole team").  Note, especially, my robots were not "quite vulnerable" without the Protector bubbles, because my toggles were about as good as the bubbles from both bots.  Once the Protectors were done double-bubbling the robots, they were up >30% defense.  And I could softcap them, if I wanted to Deflection/Insulate them.  Rarely needed to, though.

...

So, what was my attention, time, and energy spent doing?

1. Directing the robots to new targets, sometimes individually to spread their aggro around;
2. Moving the robots, again sometimes individually, to new positions as needed;
3. Maintaining situational awareness - if an ambush came in, or someone accidentally attracted a few adds, I was typically the first to see it - and use #1 and #2 to grab the adds' aggro until the Brute/Tanker could reassert control;
4. Positioning myself, to keep my toggles' effects on as much of the team as possible.

 

That's not "Masterminding Wrong".  That's just, masterminding differently than you do.  And it doesn't generally involve my little avatar "animating" anything, nor does it cost any of it's little blue bar.

...

 

Back on live, sometime in the mid-30's for level, I had a team (PUG, on some SF or other) complain that I was "just leeching" because they didn't see me actually attacking the enemy; I was just "standing there", or maybe "running around doing nothing" (except the list above, which generally isn't visible to other people the way brightly-colored energy beams etc are).  So I challenged them: for one enemy spawn, I really would do nothing - no toggles, no bubbles, pets in Passive.  They would do the fight alone, without a lick of help from me.

 

Then it was my turn - THEY stood by and watched, while I took on TWO spawn groups, at once, all by myself.

 

I finished up my side of the "test" faster than they did, and with my pets in far better health (even though I was only Def/Ins bubbling the Assault bot).  Then quipped, IC, "so, remind me exactly who is carrying who, here?" before, OOC, explaining (in nutshell brevity) all the stuff above.

 

...

 

They didn't complain one whit after that.  And, for the rest of the SF, they also were more patient waiting at the door while I (frantically) re-summoned and re-upgrade/equip'd my robots.  (This was back when pets NEVER zoned in or out with a MM, you had to do the summon-and-buff-dance at EVERY door.)

 

Being an MM who doesn't use much, or even any, END post-summoning pets, IS NOT MASTERMINDING "WRONG".  It's just a "pure pet" build, with a secondary that doesn't need much direct, mid-fight use.

Edited August 25, 2019 by PaxArcana

[ZeeHero]

The only way to Mastermind is to laugh evilly and monolouge for 6 hours at a time.

[kelly Rocket]

11 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

Rather than spend my real-world human attention on running an attack chain, I'm spending it micromanaging my pets.  I don't take any attacks from my Primary (well, okay, I take them for the first fifteen levels, 'cause there just aren't enough pets to occupy my time fully, until around level 18), and with some secondaries there aren't any debuffs to speak of (/Force Field, for example).

 

My main, back on Live, was Robotics / Force Field.  I didn't take Repulsion Bomb, and Force Bubble was end-intensive enough I saved it for panic situations.  So the only two powers I had that would affect the enemy directly in any way, were Force Bolt (which hardly counts, and after I have five pets I hardly need it), and Detention Field, which is just situational enough that it's not really needed in every fight.  On Live, I would only Deflection/Insulation bubble the Brute (or Tanker, in co-op zones), because ideally, they would be the only one getting attacked.

 

Mind, I was running full Leadership, plus Dispersion Field.  That was slotted so I was giving around 15% defense just for standing nearby.  Deflection/Insulation were giving almost 17% more, to whoever needed it (again, typically Brute or Tank - nowadays, "the whole team").  Note, especially, my robots were not "quite vulnerable" without the Protector bubbles, because my toggles were about as good as the bubbles from both bots.  Once the Protectors were done double-bubbling the robots, they were up >30% defense.  And I could softcap them, if I wanted to Deflection/Insulate them.  Rarely needed to, though.

...

So, what was my attention, time, and energy spent doing?

1. Directing the robots to new targets, sometimes individually to spread their aggro around;
2. Moving the robots, again sometimes individually, to new positions as needed;
3. Maintaining situational awareness - if an ambush came in, or someone accidentally attracted a few adds, I was typically the first to see it - and use #1 and #2 to grab the adds' aggro until the Brute/Tanker could reassert control;
4. Positioning myself, to keep my toggles' effects on as much of the team as possible.

 

That's not "Masterminding Wrong".  That's just, masterminding differently than you do.  And it doesn't generally involve my little avatar "animating" anything, nor does it cost any of it's little blue bar.

...

 

Back on live, sometime in the mid-30's for level, I had a team (PUG, on some SF or other) complain that I was "just leeching" because they didn't see me actually attacking the enemy; I was just "standing there", or maybe "running around doing nothing" (except the list above, which generally isn't visible to other people the way brightly-colored energy beams etc are).  So I challenged them: for one enemy spawn, I really would do nothing - no toggles, no bubbles, pets in Passive.  They would do the fight alone, without a lick of help from me.

 

Then it was my turn - THEY stood by and watched, while I took on TWO spawn groups, at once, all by myself.

 

I finished up my side of the "test" faster than they did, and with my pets in far better health (even though I was only Def/Ins bubbling the Assault bot).  Then quipped, IC, "so, remind me exactly who is carrying who, here?" before, OOC, explaining (in nutshell brevity) all the stuff above.

 

...

 

They didn't complain one whit after that.  And, for the rest of the SF, they also were more patient waiting at the door while I (frantically) re-summoned and re-upgrade/equip'd my robots.  (This was back when pets NEVER zoned in or out with a MM, you had to do the summon-and-buff-dance at EVERY door.)

 

Being an MM who doesn't use much, or even any, END post-summoning pets, IS NOT MASTERMINDING "WRONG".  It's just a "pure pet" build, with a secondary that doesn't need much direct, mid-fight use.

Eh. I should have said "Unless you're /FF or /Sonic, not using your endurance for the rest of the mission is Masterminding wrong."

 

Those two are weird exceptions (And I never play them because they're so booooring with so little to do). Every other secondary you should be throwing powers constantly.

 

So saying that resummoning your pets isn't a hassle because it's not for /FF and /Sonic is not really properly accurate, because being out of end at the start of the mission is a HUGE hassle for most Masterminds.

[PaxArcana]

4 minutes ago, kelly Rocket said:

Eh. I should have said "Unless you're /FF or /Sonic, not using your endurance for the rest of the mission is Masterminding wrong."

It doesn't matter what your secondary is.  It still would not be "doing it wrong".

[kelly Rocket]

Just now, PaxArcana said:

It doesn't matter what your secondary is.  It still would not be "doing it wrong".

Sorry, but it absolutely would. You're playing a Support AT. You should be using your support powers.

[PaxArcana]

Mastermind is not a Support Archetype.  It is a PET Archetype.  If the Mastermind has pets out, they are Masterminding correctly.  (And if they don't have pets out, they still aren't doing it wrong.  Wierdly, but still not wrong.)

 

[kelly Rocket]

Mastermind is absolutely a support AT. It just also happens to have pets. On a team your support powers are far more important than your pets. You're better for the team playing without pets, but using your support powers, than vice versa.

[PaxArcana]

9 minutes ago, kelly Rocket said:

Mastermind is absolutely a support AT. It just also happens to have pets. On a team your support powers are far more important than your pets. You're better for the team playing without pets, but using your support powers, than vice versa.

Mastermind absolutely is not a support AT.  NONE of the Villains ATs were ever designated as "support".

 

You sound an awful lot like you're one of those that thinks, for example, an Empathy/ Defender or /Empathy Controller should just heal and nevermind all that other stuff they're supposed to be able to do.

[kelly Rocket]

Actually I'm pretty sure I'm saying you shouldn't ignore either of your powersets. And that unless you're one of the oddball super passive secondary sets, you should be throwing powers in missions because otherwise you're ignoring your secondary.

 

And again, on big teams, your secondary actually has a stronger effect on team performance than your primary, as a Mastermind.

 

That's just due to Support being kind of better than everything else in CoH in general.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 8/15/2019 at 6:22 AM, ZeeHero said:

Collision detection is one of those things which works great thematically and -TERRIBLY- for actual gameplay quality.

In your opinion. I myself favor games with it and see those lacking it as inferior in design.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

1 hour ago, kelly Rocket said:

Mastermind is absolutely a support AT. It just also happens to have pets. On a team your support powers are far more important than your pets. You're better for the team playing without pets, but using your support powers, than vice versa.

Actually no MM is the tank AT of the red side. It does so differently then tanks but still can from lvl 1 to cap out tank any other AT when it comes to soaking up dmg. One could easily say tanks without leadership are doing it wrong but few tanks have the sense to take the pool.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

14 minutes ago, kelly Rocket said:

Actually I'm pretty sure I'm saying you shouldn't ignore either of your powersets. And that unless you're one of the oddball super passive secondary sets, you should be throwing powers in missions because otherwise you're ignoring your secondary.

 

And again, on big teams, your secondary actually has a stronger effect on team performance than your primary, as a Mastermind.

 

That's just due to Support being kind of better than everything else in CoH in general.

except its not the fast clear times for content have always been pretty much pure offensive teams. Scrappers, blasters, stalkers, brutes and tanks to a lesser extent. Support is great if someone actually needs support. I dont make characters that ever need it. its nice, might make things easier on pugs with less adept players and underfunded builds but on a team of barmy berks in full on cutter mode nope sorry supporter builds and their buffs are just slowing us down. someone says gather I am already in the next room with half of it wiped out.

[kelly Rocket]

You have a shallow understanding of support then. One /Storm MM applying -60% resistance to every enemy is a vastly more powerful clear time booster than 6 pets attacking. Or a Blaster nuking. Because you're buffing the damage of EVERYONE on the team. Potentially past the damage caps.

 

/Dark can do this too. /Traps can do it. /Cold can do it even better. /Rad, /Thermal, and /Time can do it to lesser degrees.

 

/Kin is just bloody obvious.

 

Support isn't just damage mitigation, it's also a force multiplier.

[Chuckers]

On 8/15/2019 at 5:32 PM, PaxArcana said:

Nor is anyone asking MMs to dismiss pets EVERY time they leave a mission (though, personally, I _do_, just because I don't want to drag the pets through the entire zone on the way to the next door).
 

 

 

This is me with my bots/ff. I dismiss them at the end of every mission because they will aggro everything on their way to the next mission or end up dying anyway. It's easier to dismiss and re-summon. Since I only solo with my MM, because my friends don't really know how to play with an MM on the team, I don't mind the extra few seconds of set up at every door. 

 

But in relation to the topic, I can't believe that I got stuck in a room because my PHANTOM army was blocking the door.. they're phantoms.. phantoms are insubstantial entities.. WHY can't I walk through them? 

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Chuckers

[PaxArcana]

3 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

You have a shallow understanding of support then.

I think you have a shallow understanding of Masterminds.  You seem to think, on a team, the MM should be putting most of their attention into their secondary powerset.

 

And I strongly disagree with that.

[Chuckers]

5 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

I think you have a shallow understanding of Masterminds.  You seem to think, on a team, the MM should be putting most of their attention into their secondary powerset.

 

And I strongly disagree with that.

When I am playing my MM properly, I rarely use my secondary. I buff them at the start with bubbles and then re-apply as necessary. I'm too busy micromanaging my bots to even use my primary MM attack powers. 

[kelly Rocket]

7 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

I think you have a shallow understanding of Masterminds.  You seem to think, on a team, the MM should be putting most of their attention into their secondary powerset.

 

And I strongly disagree with that.

I think you're reading into my posts, things I didn't say. I said you should be using them, unless you're FF or Sonic. Not that you should ignore the primary. Though, to be honest on a big team I leave the pets on Bodyguard usually, and just focus on support. But I'm generally playing something like Time or Dark where the support end is quite important.

 

And I also make sure to either take the alpha on new spawns, or get up into the melee so I and the pets at least take some splash damage to get the pets participating in attacking.

 

Occasionally if we have a really good tank and I just can't get any aggro or meaningful splash from what we're fighting, I'll give the pets attack orders, or just switch them to aggressive. But I'm generally busy throwing CC and Debuffs.

 

7 hours ago, Chuckers said:

When I am playing my MM properly, I rarely use my secondary. I buff them at the start with bubbles and then re-apply as necessary. I'm too busy micromanaging my bots to even use my primary MM attack powers. 

That's because you're playing Force Field. Force Field and Sonic Resonance are weird exceptions that have nothing to really do during combat because everything except their bubbles and toggles are largely skippable crap.

[ZeeHero]

On 8/26/2019 at 1:31 AM, Bentley Berkeley said:

In your opinion. I myself favor games with it and see those lacking it as inferior in design.

Inferior in design in what way? a game with pets and players blocking each other is not well designed- it's a hindrance to mechanics and gameplay.

Quote

 

Actually no MM is the tank AT of the red side. It does so differently then tanks but still can from lvl 1 to cap out tank any other AT when it comes to soaking up dmg. One could easily say tanks without leadership are doing it wrong but few tanks have the sense to take the pool.

 

You're grossly mistaken. Brutes have always had that spot. MMs are support and always have been. MM's CAN be pseudo tanks as can any AT though.

 

Also tanks without leadership are absolutely fine and not "Wrong"  is this truly the attitude you have towards people doing things differently?

Edited August 27, 2019 by ZeeHero

[PaxArcana]

2 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

You're grossly mistaken. Brutes have always had that spot. MMs are support and always have been.

Brutes were designed for it.

 

But MMs, (ab)using Bodyguard mode, can excel at it - and leave those Brutes far behind against anything except AoE damage.

 

With set bonusses, an MM - especially a /Sonic MM - should be able to get 30% to 40% resistance without too terribly much difficulty.  Now, that may not sound like much, but .... then Bodyguard kicks in, and the MM shares out 75% of the damage that hit him.  So, you take ~65% of 25% ... effectively, you've got around an 85% Resistance to almost everything.  Most of which (a) doesn't cost endurance, and (b) doesn't stop if you get mezzed.

Just ... stay out of the burn patches, yes?  😄

 

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by PaxArcana

[ZeeHero]

Oh I know MM's CAN tank but they're not actually tanks. this was my point. a BLASTER can tank if built a certain way.