Show me your Defender tier list!

[Auroxis]

  

25 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

I just generally think that by top levels most other players have already sorted out their mezz protection and since the Heal sets generally require you to take most of the powers, the mezz protection is the most natural power to skip.

 

Maybe if the duration was 4 - 8 minutes I could see taking them. 

 

With Defenders you can just skip attacks, especially on Sonic which can skip about 4 powers and still be a debuff machine.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Auroxis

[Moonbeam]

I would like to add my thoughts on defenders.

they are my favorite archetype by far.

to me its all about team support.

the best part is it can come in a variety of ways.

In my opinion they are the most versatile group to play.

my main and favorite is my empath/dark defender (Moonbeem)

I have 3 builds I use with her. 

1st build  (damage build)-  I focused on damage and less on heals and buffs.  (they are there but not maxed out).  

2nd build (support build)-  all my attacks are slotted for -to hit debuff;  heals and support powers are maxed out.

3rd build  (hami build)    -  this build was made on a challenge and I use it to tank hamidon  in the hive. (as long as I get a little regen support)  

                  I can also buff/heal with her on the same build.

 

the main issue I run into is you never know if your team you just joined is going to be weak or solid.  

So when I join a task force  I will play my damage build.  

If after the first mission I feel they need more support I can switch to that build and better serve the team.

The - to hit debuff the support build brings to the table can make a huge impact.

Add in the other buffs for defense, regen, recovery and mez protection and she definitely can make a difference.

My favorite thing to do is watch a scrapper run off and get killed by a group all alone.  

I come in and mez the crap out of them and rez the scrapper.

Then I head back to the main group making him look like a fool.

 

Yes there are days where the team doesn't seem to need much of the empathy side of my powers and I have learned to adapt to it. 

Just do more damage and keep them  out of trouble. 

Also I play very aggressive. 

You will find I prefer to follow right behind or next to the tank.  They are my first priority!

anyway the most important thing i have learned is no build is best for everyone.   

you need to make the powers in your build fit your playstyle to maximize your performance.

As such I prefer to level my toons playing them in task forces.   

Its a personal choice.    

It helps me decide how to play them and what powers to pick.

If you want to farm your toon to level 50  I dont have a problem with that either.

what matters most is are you having fun!  :)

  

 

 

[Milk Sheik]

Having played an emp/rad badge toon, I agree that while good teams don't need me, the game is still full of  idiots  less optimized players who do. When teams split up to chew through content faster, all of a sudden the squishies find they are soloing or duoing mobs, and all of a sudden my Fort and single target heal are loved once more. Or we're doing radios full of Carnies and everyone loves end buffs. Or there's a Hami raid where someone forgot to take their EoE or ran out because Hami showed up early and they only had one or two before diving into the goo. All the damage fields like the blue s**t in a Tinpex or the pink s**t in a MoM leave plenty of toons hurting no matter how high their defense is. 

 

CM is of course nice on squishies, but it is also loved after multiple toons are eating pavement and while rez is recharging, they have clicked wakies to try to get back into the fight. CM banishes that stun, and with a heal and an end buff, they are back into the fight super fast.

 

Are there better combos? Definitely. Rad blast has got long animation times and not much damage. I'd love to see it buffed. But I'm rarely at a loss for something to do.

 

[Doomguide2005]

 

3 hours ago, Milk Sheik said:

Are there better combos? Definitely. Rad blast has got long animation times and not much damage. I'd love to see it buffed. But I'm rarely at a loss for something to do.

 

I haven't been able to try it on HC but /Rad can take a number of procs and can, as I understand it, boost its damage output substantially as a result.

[Milk Sheik]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

 

I haven't been able to try it on HC but /Rad can take a number of procs and can, as I understand it, boost its damage output substantially as a result.

 

Yeah, I didn't want to go into all the mitigation I've had to use to get around its not-so-great damage, but you can. Personally I put an Achilles' Heel in Neutrino Bolt so I can spam it, Overwhelming Force in X-Ray Beam so I have a little knockdown punch with fast recharge and animation (esp. useful at low levels), Irradiate gets a PBAOE purple knockdown proc and the Gladiator's -res proc so it and AH can stack (I hear multiple Achilles Heel's don't stack, but the two of those can be a lot of -res together). My addiction to knockdown also got thrown into Neutron Bomb (purple set, gets the 10% recharge too).

 

-Def sounds awesome in theory, but in practice I mostly notice the difference on the Manti TF when you can hit a Power Paragon Protector with Irradiate, drop his def by 51%, and then beat him up after he MOGs. Other than that... kind of underwhelming.

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Milk Sheik

[Doomguide2005]

     Tiers for me are largely not relevant when considering Defenders (or Corruptors).  I say largely because it can point towards sets which need some love and which don't but even then that really doesn't account for teamed strength and synergy.  For the most part Defenders as a whole are not playing to their strength unless they are teamed and tiers/tier ratings, based on this thread, only remotely (indirectly?) account for their multiplicative synergy when they do so or how the set goes about doing their thing.

[Cancrusher]

Quote

Don't get me wrong, any support is great when you are on a damage-prioritized archetype like Stalker, Scrapper, Blaster, Corrupter, Brute, or Sentinel.  But as a non-Defender-main I must say I get giddy when I see a Kinetics Defender join the team, because I know what we can do together, provided mobs stay grouped up for Fulcrum Shift that is.

 

I've got to agree with this.  I haven't really explored defenders in play, but I love it when a good Kinetics Defender is in a team I join.  Those endurance buffs are awesome.  👍

[Gulbasaur]

1 minute ago, Cancrusher said:

I haven't really explored defenders in play, but I love it when a good Kinetics Defender is in a team I join. 

They vary massively depending on your primary. I like the support specs just because of how much they differ. Time is a bona fide tank. Rad could take down the entire universe solo, provided it had long enough. Kinetics is terrible solo but can turn a mediocre team into an unstoppable force as long as they stay in melee. Force Field is fire-and-forget with a lot of soft control. Sonic is similar, but plays differently enough. Storm is like a blaster if all of your attacks were AoE. Poison can solo anything it can spit on as long as it does it fast. There's just so much variety.
 

Also, the Inherent means you're actually fairly decent solo.

[StriderIV]

5 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

They vary massively depending on your primary. I like the support specs just because of how much they differ. Time is a bona fide tank. Rad could take down the entire universe solo, provided it had long enough. Kinetics is terrible solo but can turn a mediocre team into an unstoppable force as long as they stay in melee. Force Field is fire-and-forget with a lot of soft control. Sonic is similar, but plays differently enough. Storm is like a blaster if all of your attacks were AoE. Poison can solo anything it can spit on as long as it does it fast. There's just so much variety.
 

Also, the Inherent means you're actually fairly decent solo.

+1 to this Gulb! Although now you have me wanting to level one of every Defender primary 😂 currently working on a Time/Rad.

[Force Redux]

Just going to add here that Trick Arrow went from dead last to S Tier after last year's buffs. Combine with either Water or Dark Blast for survivability, enjoy.

[Blackjoy]

On 8/21/2019 at 10:15 AM, Hjarki said:

It might help to break down what is and is not useful in the late game....

 

 

Given that, I'd rank the sets:

 

Tier 3:

• Trick Arrow. It has a plethora of control/debuff effects, but they tend to be numerically inferior. It's always better to have a single strong power than a handful of weak ones.

 

First let me say that i find this an interesting topic and that there is no right answer outside of a specific context and aggregate stats to back it up.   A lot of how people can rank the sets is highly context dependent.

 

I will say that reading these forums, overemphasis is put on the end-game and vey little analysis is done on leveling up.  And that makes sense since everyone's experience to 50 is so varied that it is hard to come up with any objective truths about the sets. 

 

Regarding Trick Arrow....

 

It was my experience on Live that Trick Arrow was one of the least understood sets.   Players simply don't get it.  This is evidenced by many versions of this statement "but they tend to be numerically inferior."  What is lost in this perspective is the mechanic by which the debuffs are deployed and their cumulative effect of the sets debuffs dramatically influence the impact.   While most sets tend to employ a number of different attributes -regen, -def, -res, -to hit, +heal, +mez, -KD/KB, damge, etc.   Not all are as varied.

 

"It's always better to have a single strong power than a handful of weak ones."  This is demonstratively false in materials engineering.  Composite materials can be constructed to out perform non-composite materials in any type of stress testing.   The ability to stack different types of deuffs on a target makes a set far more robust than a set that simply has a high value of one thing.

 

In addition, the effectiveness of any single strong debuff is a function of how long that debuff is actually applied.   Anchor debuffing of Rad and Dark have major drawback that do not affect Trick Arrows location and sticky debuffs.   In the high level game, minion anchors die within seconds.  Sometimes before I can even finish the animation.   Finding the the boss or LT can take me so  long that the alphas have already been exchanged and the debuff isn't as useful.    When facing things like sappers or Carnies that sap endo, anchor toggles fall.  Trick Arrow's deuffs are fire and forget

 

 A perfect example is Flash Arrow.   The -to hit debuff, may be minor compared to Dark's.  But FA can be applied to neighboring groups without aggroing them and in the middle of another battle.  So when that next group is attacked, the -to hit is already in effect against the entire group before they return alpha.  You can't get away with that with Rad and Dark.   

 

Trick Arrow also has one of the most unique debuffs.  As I understand it, and believe (because it's hard to do definitive testing in group play)  I've seen in action, Acid Arrow lowers the resistance to other debuffs and mez effets.  So Acid Arrow against an AV's/EB's  makes them more susceptible to holds and other effects.   

 

If Trick Arrow has a gap, it's the lack of mez protection/nullification  and outright heal.   As others have pointed out, sometimes you need healing nothing else is as good.  Trick Arrow hopes to make those times few and far between and manageable so that any given player's own way to deal with -health can be sufficient.  

 

But the point here is that looking at TA's low numbers as an indication of its effectiveness is bad science and is evident of people not understanding the context in which the game is played.

 

Now let me state that Hijarki, I think you have a tremendous amount of insight into how the game is played, but you've got a blind spot in terms of the dependencies and synergy with regard to how Trick Arrow has been set up.   I saw this repeatedly in Live.  And having played Dark, Kin, and TA to 50 on Live (and obviously having played with all the sets)  I was amazed at how effective TA was in small groups and large groups without people even realizing it.  TA, in the hands of someone with system mastery, easily out performs Dark and Rad  and Kin, on average.   Obviously there are set ups where other sets will have more impact. I'll also point out that some sets have more obvious effects, like Rad's main anchor, and that influences people's perspective on what's working. 

 

I'll go on record that from a teammate perspective, Kin is going to get the most votes.  +recharge, damage cap, Full health/Endurance.  Even if another set lets you gain xp faster, Kin makes each individual player see bigger numbers and that has more value to individuals. 

 

 

 

 

 

[oedipus_tex]

On 3/10/2022 at 3:42 PM, Blackjoy said:

Regarding Trick Arrow....

 

It was my experience on Live that Trick Arrow was one of the least understood sets.   Players simply don't get it.  This is evidenced by many versions of this statement "but they tend to be numerically inferior."  What is lost in this perspective is the mechanic by which the debuffs are deployed and their cumulative effect of the sets debuffs dramatically influence the impact.   While most sets tend to employ a number of different attributes -regen, -def, -res, -to hit, +heal, +mez, -KD/KB, damge, etc.   Not all are as varied

 

 

In fairness to the person being quoted, the version of TA that existed in 2019 I would also rank as inferior to most other sets. The newer, updated version is fantastic.

 

My 2022 ranking of Defender Primary sets for general content would look something like the list below. Each Primary could rise or fall a few ranks depending on whether it's being used for general content versus hand picked content, though. 

• S TIER: Time Manipulation, Cold Domination, Trick Arrow, Dark Miasma, Storm Summoning
• A TIER: Thermal Radiation, Traps, Kinetics 
• B TIER: Nature Affinity, Electric Affinity, Radiation Emission, Poison
• C TIER: Sonic Resonance, Empathy, Pain Domination, Force Field w/ Power Boost
• D TIER: Force Field w/o Power Boost

 

Yeah I have a lot of S-Tier rankings for Defender sets. 🙂 

[StriderIV]

7 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

In fairness to the person being quoted, the version of TA that existed in 2019 I would also rank as inferior to most other sets. The newer, updated version is fantastic.

 

My 2022 ranking of Defender Primary sets for general content would look something like the list below. Each Primary could rise or fall a few ranks depending on whether it's being used for general content versus hand picked content, though. 

• S TIER: Time Manipulation, Cold Domination, Trick Arrow, Dark Miasma, Storm Summoning
• A TIER: Thermal Radiation, Traps, Kinetics 
• B TIER: Nature Affinity, Electric Affinity, Radiation Emission, Poison
• C TIER: Sonic Resonance, Empathy, Pain Domination, Force Field w/ Power Boost
• D TIER: Force Field w/o Power Boost

 

Yeah I have a lot of S-Tier rankings for Defender sets. 🙂 

Awesome ranking Tex. Currently have a Storm/Water and Time/Rad I’m waiting to IO out. Wondering which to do first! 😂😂😂 both great, just much different playstyles. 

[Blackjoy]

On 3/17/2022 at 3:23 AM, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

In fairness to the person being quoted, the version of TA that existed in 2019 I would also rank as inferior to most other sets. The newer, updated version is fantastic.

 

 

I don't know what TA was like on Reborn in 2019.  I played it back on Live, in the original game, and it was a tremendous set, but many on the forums couldn't reconcile the numbers with how it actually played.  It's hard to show how good a set like TA is on paper because the statistics are dominate by context, not probability.  Consider that  5.6% debuff on 10 mobs that last 40 seconds and is applied before the alpha, mitigates far more damage than a 20% debuff that hits 10 mobs but lasts 10 seconds (because that anchor gets killed). 

[Without_Pause]

7 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

Consider that  5.6% debuff on 10 mobs that last 40 seconds and is applied before the alpha, mitigates far more damage than a 20% debuff that hits 10 mobs but lasts 10 seconds (because that anchor gets killed). 

But then those toggles stick around now for a bit even after the anchor gets killed.

[Blackjoy]

2 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

But then those toggles stick around now for a bit even after the anchor gets killed.

We know the animations stick around, is there any website that confirms how long the numerical debuff lasts? According to COD, Flash Arrow lasts 60 seconds has a radius of 35ft compared to others of 25ft.  That means flash arrow has essentially double the area of Darkest Night.   And Flash Arrow is sticky.  So no matter where the affected mob goes, it's still being debuffed.   

 

Granted, Darkest Night is debuffing at 37% To Hit and 50% Damage.  So even with Poison Gas Arrow on the same mobs, Dark has a substantially more powerful debuff on two fronts, combined into one power.  But that isn't always good.  If your anchor dies or runs off, Darkest Night loses all its debuffing.  TA doesn't have that problem.  So the actual comparative beneift  has to consider what is the REAL uptime of those debuffs?  TA is typically going to last longer, and in some cases, much longer on every target.

 

Another advantage for TA is that by splitting up the debuffs, I can apply them to different groups as needed.   Is there a boss that peeled off the main group and is pounding a brute or a fellow squishy?  PGA's -25% damage  can be redirected and with enough recharge applied to more than 16 targets, or to separate groups simultaneously.

 

Additonally, according to websites, with Issue 13, enemy affecting toggles turn off when the character is mez'd.  So your Defender gets held or stunned, your debuffs drop.  Haven't confirmed if that's still true, but it was another reason why TA was better than the numbers and players focused on numbers didn't see it.

 

Look, Dark Miasma and Radiation are great debuffing sets.  In the right conditions, they can totally outshine TA.  My point is that if someone is trying to understand TA through the numbers, they aren't going to come away with the right conclusion.

[Carnifax]

11 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

Granted, Darkest Night is debuffing at 37% To Hit and 50% Damage.

No it's not. 37.5% -dam and 30% -ToHit fully enhanced (18.75 * 1.6).

Flash is the same, but split into 15% resistable and 15% unresistable (so good Vs AVs). Note the unresistable bit is still downgraded by the Purple Patch. 

 

[Without_Pause]

I honestly wonder how long a typical fights lasts. I highly doubt a mob takes 60 seconds to clear. 30 seconds seems long, TBH. I've done solo missions at x8 in like 8 minutes depending on the mission. Sure, for longer fights where an EB, AV, etc is involved those longer debuffs will be nice, but that feels rather specialized.

 

Dark and Rad have an issue with the toggles in that on the right team they simply aren't used. The same type of power for TA can always be used and even before the fight starts.

 

Related, I made Grav/ta, but it is too early for me to really say much of anything as the build is level 9, and I don't even have ATOs slotted.

[Carnifax]

22 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Related, I made Grav/ta, but it is too early for me to really say much of anything as the build is level 9, and I don't even have ATOs slotted.

Grav/TA is immense fun. Had it on Live, even did a guide because back then they were two low tier sets (pre Grav changes and way before the TA changes here). If you stick the Overpowering Presence proc into Poison Gas Arrow you can have a family of "singularities". Not that the babies actually do very much. 

 

One huge advantage TA has is Animation times. Disruption Arrow is 1.16 seconds. Tar Patch is 3.1, Freezing Rain is 2.1. When you're trying to "set up" that's a lovely advantage to have. 

 

I'd pretty much agree with Tex's ranks for Defenders. Kinetics for example is just a tad too overkill on a Defender given damage caps so A is a good spot for it. On a Corruptor I'd upgrade it to S (more damage cap to take advantage of + FSed scourge). 

[Without_Pause]

1 minute ago, Carnifax said:

Grav/TA is immense fun. Had it on Live, even did a guide because back then they were two low tier sets (pre Grav changes and way before the TA changes here). If you stick the Overpowering Presence proc into Poison Gas Arrow you can have a family of "singularities". Not that the babies actually do very much. 

 

One huge advantage TA has is Animation times. Disruption Arrow is 1.16 seconds. Tar Patch is 3.1, Freezing Rain is 2.1. When you're trying to "set up" that's a lovely advantage to have. 

 

I'd pretty much agree with Tex's ranks for Defenders. Kinetics for example is just a tad too overkill on a Defender given damage caps so A is a good spot for it. On a Corruptor I'd upgrade it to S (more damage cap to take advantage of + FSed scourge). 

As someone who's alias is Without Pause and rails against long cast times, it has been far too recent for me to look at TA and notice the cast times. After obsessing over cast times for melee, I started to look at support and roll new characters based on what I saw. In a land of steam rolling +4/x8 content, cast times matter. A near two second difference can be another attack added in. Like, Disruption Arrow with Blaze versus just Tar Patch. 

[StriderIV]

What are some primaries you guys like to pair with TA? Archery obviously stands out.

 

I would think DP/TA would be SWEET, but I’m wondering how weapon redraw works with that lol.

[Blackjoy]

On 3/30/2022 at 11:46 AM, Carnifax said:

No it's not. 37.5% -dam and 30% -ToHit fully enhanced (18.75 * 1.6).

Flash is the same, but split into 15% resistable and 15% unresistable (so good Vs AVs). Note the unresistable bit is still downgraded by the Purple Patch. 

 

Right. I was looking at the PvP value which says 50% damage and didn't see the 18% for ToHit.  Good catch.

 

And no, Flash is not the same debuff, if that's what you're saying.  Flash is only 9% in PVE, but it has that massive -Perception debuff.  Okay, CoD  2.0 is clearly out of date, I guess it was boosted to 18.7%   Wow.  No wonder people are feeling like TA is so good now.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Blackjoy

[Carnifax]

1 minute ago, StriderIV said:

What are some primaries you guys like to pair with TA? Archery obviously stands out.

 

I would think DP/TA would be SWEET, but I’m wondering how weapon redraw works with that lol.

I'm running TA/Elec now and embracing point blank arrows. Flash lets you get in close and Oil Slick > Short Circuit > Ball Lightning on a disruption field is very nice. Decent space for procs too (still have to figure out how Tesla works with procs). Just had a nice solo run versus a load of rogue ppd. Debuffs everywhere. 

 

I was going Elec/TA but build seems to work better as a defender. 

[Blackjoy]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

I honestly wonder how long a typical fights lasts. I highly doubt a mob takes 60 seconds to clear. 30 seconds seems long, TBH.

Which underscores my point.  Context matters and that isn't found on a powers chart.  Just because two sets have a -To Hit power doesn't mean that the one with the higher number is better.  

 

In any event, I think people here get it.   TA is a lot better than its numbers indicate, and that was true before they buffed it.

[Force Redux]

My TA/Dark Blast is a beast.