Add a new inherent toggle power for changing KB/KD

[Rylas]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

Oh, not at all!

 

It's more of a "Knockback doesn't 'Gimp' Peacebringers. PBs with knockback are actually quite effective, even in teaming situations. Here's an example of that bone hard truth."

I don't think there's been anyone here arguing that KB gimps PBs. Or that it gimps anyone. But it does prevent people from using play styles as well as they'd like to. I'm glad you have fun playing the way you play, nothing wrong with that at all. But I'll never pick up Energy Blast on a Defender because I don't care for the mechanic myself, and I like building high-end IO builds and don't see the appeal in using up slots on attacks just so I can KD instead.

[Steampunkette]

Just now, Rylas said:

I don't think there's been anyone here arguing that KB gimps PBs. Or that it gimps anyone. But it does prevent people from using play styles as well as they'd like to. I'm glad you have fun playing the way you play, nothing wrong with that at all. But I'll never pick up Energy Blast on a Defender because I don't care for the mechanic myself, and I like building high-end IO builds and don't see the appeal in using up slots on attacks just so I can KD instead.

The thread that was linked above my post was "Ungimp Peacebringers" by RedLynne.

 

So yes. There are people who think KB "Gimps" Peacebringers.

 

And yeah. Knockback creates a different playstyle than added DoTs. Similarly tohit debuffing creates a different slotting strategy than defense debuffing. Not every powerset is going to be perfect for every player. Or fit their playstyle. I, for one, vehemently dislike Dual Blade's 'Combo System' because I feel forced into a very narrow attack chain design wherein I -have- to take every power for every combo or else I feel like I'm doing it wrong. I also dislike Contamination's spread so Rad Melee is out for me. Fire Control's gone because of it's focus on damage instead of control. Etc. Etc. Etc.

 

If you need a scalpel use a scalpel. I just think it's kind of weird to ask for a hammer to be sharpened into a scalpel so you can use it, instead. It's a hammer... it shouldn't even be -in- an Operating Room!

[Rylas]

14 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

The thread that was linked above my post was "Ungimp Peacebringers" by RedLynne.

 

So yes. There are people who think KB "Gimps" Peacebringers.

I specifically said no one here. As in this thread. Hence the need to point out the non-relevance of bringing it up here. And I'm familiar with that thread. The OPs argument about slots being eaten up for KB/KD IOs was what lead me to making this suggestion.

 

Trying to extrapolate the vocal minority that forums attract into "ALL KB PLAYERS WILL BE PERSECUTED" is just fear mongering. Let's not pretend that those on the forums represent the entire player base in any kind of accuracy. Yes, I'm aware there are idiots out there that do such things. But my experience in game, as someone who doesn't entirely care for KB, has never been that people by and large shun KB players. And as much as I don't care for KB, I would think I'd have some confirmation bias in seeing people who also didn't care for it.

14 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

And yeah. Knockback creates a different playstyle than added DoTs. Similarly tohit debuffing creates a different slotting strategy than defense debuffing. Not every powerset is going to be perfect for every player. Or fit their playstyle. I, for one, vehemently dislike Dual Blade's 'Combo System' because I feel forced into a very narrow attack chain design wherein I -have- to take every power for every combo or else I feel like I'm doing it wrong. I also dislike Contamination's spread so Rad Melee is out for me. Fire Control's gone because of it's focus on damage instead of control. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Cool beans. Except Dual Blade's Combo System is only in DB. Rad Melee's Contamination is only in RM. KB is a mechanic that is way more prevalent than you're admitting with your selective examples. And what's more, it's more likely to affect other players abilities than your examples ever could. I've never seen my /Willpower brute's regen suddenly disappear because Contamination sent all the mobs around me flying. Have you?

 

Again, don't get me wrong. I'm glad you enjoy KB. I don't want that to go away. I want everyone that likes using KB powers to keep on enjoying them with KB. That's why in my earlier comment, I mentioned I'm the one to leave the team I formed if a KB player doesn't use it in a team friendly way. It's my problem, not theirs, and I'm mature enough to let them keep going the way they want to go. All I'm making a suggestion for is providing a mechanic that allows the player more choice of how they can use KB or KD. You don't need to fear monger over it based on hypothetical situations for which you have no evidence would be the case. You're better off making your arguments around the issues with implementing it into the game.

 

If you have a better idea for how to allow players to turn their KB powers into KD powers without having to eat up slots for every power, then by all means, make one. I'm sure there's better ideas than mine for how to implement it. But you don't have to turn the thread into a "stop persecuting KB players" crusade, because this thread isn't about persecuting KB players.

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

I get so tired of the wo is me Im melee and KB is just bad argument. I have since year one played and capped so very many scrappers, and later brutes and stalkers and never once found having to pwess W to wun wafta du wittle mobs to be a big deal. People will try to hide it in meta talk about dps and button presses per action to take down a mob etc, but in actuality it always boils down to laziness. Every person Ive ever encountered in game who hates knock back is the kind the tends to have a wowtard play style mentality and want to tank and spank, corner pull, etc and not engage in this game like actual super heroes boldly rushing into danger because innocent lives are at risk.

 

Id sooner see them do away with call all maps. As those are the ones I see as the root of the real issue, which is when an odd mob runs off and gets lost and causes people to spend precious minutes searching for one cowardly little rat. Been hearing that main complain a lot this week with citadel being the WST. More then cave hate, more then KB hate, I hear hate on having to kill every last little minion to move on. Its the single least comic hero mish goal, Virtually all comic characters focus on the big boss, and ignore any more cowardly run away minion types, which is typically seen as an act of merci on behalf of the hero character to let them run off. I think this hate is only second to having to find a lot of glowies on a really large map like some of the cot ruin maps.

 

The biggest issue with this suggestion is it wouldnt really be optional, if a KB user was on a team and even one demanding KB hater started to trash talk the KB user for not having on a KD toggle it would lead to a negative play session for one or the other.

 

The only true recipe for KB haters is for them to play solo, because by their very nature they are too negative to belong among society.

[biostem]

One thing I'll say Champions has over CoH is the prevalence of "lunge" powers in the various melee sets - allows for quick and efficient closing of the gap if enemies should move out of melee range... It'd be nice to get something like that added to CoH, with shorter than the 2-minute cooldown of the one from the leaping pool...

[Steampunkette]

43 minutes ago, Rylas said:

I specifically said no one here. As in this thread. Hence the need to point out the non-relevance of bringing it up here. And I'm familiar with that thread. The OPs argument about slots being eaten up for KB/KD IOs was what lead me to making this suggestion.

 

Trying to extrapolate the vocal minority that forums attract into "ALL KB PLAYERS WILL BE PERSECUTED" is just fear mongering. Let's not pretend that those on the forums represent the entire player base in any kind of accuracy. Yes, I'm aware there are idiots out there that do such things. But my experience in game, as someone who doesn't entirely care for KB, has never been that people by and large shun KB players. And as much as I don't care for KB, I would think I'd have some confirmation bias in seeing people who also didn't care for it.

Cool beans. Except Dual Blade's Combo System is only in DB. Rad Melee's Contamination is only in RM. KB is a mechanic that is way more prevalent than you're admitting with your selective examples. And what's more, it's more likely to affect other players abilities than your examples ever could. I've never seen my /Willpower brute's regen suddenly disappear because Contamination sent all the mobs around me flying. Have you?

 

 

The person who made the "UNGIMP PEACEBRINGERS" Thread -LINKED- that thread right above the post you're complaining about. Same person. And then specifically went on a little side-discussion ABOUT how Peacebringers in particular are gimped by the proposed issue. Are... are you just not reading things?

 

And no. I'm not trying to extrapolate a vocal minority, friendo. You can just pick up that strawman right now. I've said that the arguments won't end 'cause there's people who actively quit teams when there's KB. And people who demand others stop KBing in ways they don't like right on these forums. I've also said that implementing a wide-area-web-grenade of 'Anti-KB Toggle" would further embolden people of that mindset to appeal to authority.

 

I've never presented an "All KB Players will be Persecuted!" thing. 

 

As to the powersets: There's, like, 6 powersets where KB is a "Problem". Energy Blast, Energy Assault, Kinetic Melee, Peacebringer Blast, and Storm Summoning. Any other set that has knockback in it either has it in 1 or 2 powers that aren't exactly key or has one power where it's key but that knockback is very important for that set (Like Energy Manipulation's melee KB to keep people off the blaster, or Force Bolt from Force Field for the same purpose) If you don't like knockback or slotting for KD then just don't play those powersets. It's not some ubiquitous thing that every AT has in freaking ABUNDANCE that makes it unavoidable.

 

43 minutes ago, Rylas said:

Again, don't get me wrong. I'm glad you enjoy KB. I don't want that to go away. I want everyone that likes using KB powers to keep on enjoying them with KB. That's why in my earlier comment, I mentioned I'm the one to leave the team I formed if a KB player doesn't use it in a team friendly way. It's my problem, not theirs, and I'm mature enough to let them keep going the way they want to go. All I'm making a suggestion for is providing a mechanic that allows the player more choice of how they can use KB or KD. You don't need to fear monger over it based on hypothetical situations for which you have no evidence would be the case. You're better off making your arguments around the issues with implementing it into the game.

 

If you have a better idea for how to allow players to turn their KB powers into KD powers without having to eat up slots for every power, then by all means, make one. I'm sure there's better ideas than mine for how to implement it. But you don't have to turn the thread into a "stop persecuting KB players" crusade, because this thread isn't about persecuting KB players.

 

"More Choice" is still misleading. You're not adding more choices. You're adding more ways to remove knockback from the game. It's the same choice as the KD IO with less cost. The Live Devs were like "Hmm. They're going to kill these mobs faster 'cause of less scatter, that should cost them a tiny amount. I know! Let's use one slot (which means maybe one set bonus and a minimal power modification cost) in exchange for the KB to KD" and you're saying "The cost is too high!"  That's not more choice. That's the same choice at bargain bin prices. For us, anyhow. The Devs would be paying through the nose in mind-numbing tedium.

 

More choice would be suggesting a Knock-Up toggle. Or a "KB To Repel" toggle. Or maybe IOs that do the same. Creating different effects to give people options to what they want it to do. 

 

How about instead of suggesting a Toggle, which I've already explained would be a massive pile of needless work which creates the perception of KB being WRONGBADFUN, you could suggest a few new IO sets for Melee, Ranged, and AoE Damage which have the KB to KD IO as the 6th IO in the set and give a variety of other set bonuses along the way. Then you could reasonably reduce the cost for yourself since you'd still need the IO that swaps the effect, but at least it'd still be part of a set you were interested in using and provide a Set Bonus?

 

That'd also be a lot less work for the Devs.

[ShogunGunshow]

Make an inherent part of Knockback that it debuffs enemy resistance to damage for a short duration. Scales with KB magnitude.

 

At least you'll get some good feels out of chasing something knocked out of the pack by getting big numbers.

[Razor Cure]

I'd also love a toggle to turn team mates kb OFF. Some people are just beyond clueless with it, and it makes teaming with those types very painful!

[Rylas]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

 

The person who made the "UNGIMP PEACEBRINGERS" Thread -LINKED- that thread right above the post you're complaining about. Same person. And then specifically went on a little side-discussion ABOUT how Peacebringers in particular are gimped by the proposed issue. Are... are you just not reading things?

Again, when I said "here" I was referring to this thread I started. I understand other people will have that mentality. There's nothing to be done about that, but they're not so large a population that KB players will be shamed or shunned out of being able to play like they like.

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

And no. I'm not trying to extrapolate a vocal minority, friendo. You can just pick up that strawman right now. I've said that the arguments won't end 'cause there's people who actively quit teams when there's KB. And people who demand others stop KBing in ways they don't like right on these forums. I've also said that implementing a wide-area-web-grenade of 'Anti-KB Toggle" would further embolden people of that mindset to appeal to authority.

Uh, thanks... budd-a-rino? No strawman here. Of course arguments won't end. What highly opinionated divisive topics ever have arguments that end? But those people aren't the majority. And you're basically arguing something shouldn't be done because human beings are capable of being jerks. It's a poor argument. My suggestion wasn't made to end ridiculous forum arguments. Its about giving more choice and control to the player with a mechanic that's quite prevalent throughout the game. You can bemoan forum haters all you like, but it's irrelevant to the point of the suggestion.

 

I get it, you don't like people crying about KB. Neither do I. Stop listening to them. They're only your problem if you let them be.

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

"More Choice" is still misleading. You're not adding more choices. You're adding more ways to remove knockback from the game. It's the same choice as the KD IO with less cost. The Live Devs were like "Hmm. They're going to kill these mobs faster 'cause of less scatter, that should cost them a tiny amount. I know! Let's use one slot (which means maybe one set bonus and a minimal power modification cost) in exchange for the KB to KD" and you're saying "The cost is too high!"  That's not more choice. That's the same choice at bargain bin prices. For us, anyhow. The Devs would be paying through the nose in mind-numbing tedium.

It literally is adding a choice. I understand if you choose to see it as abolishing KB from the game. That doesn't make you right. You can't slot and unslot a KB/KD IO at whim in the middle of game play. You could detoggle and toggle a KB/KD power though. Like for a map that doesn't work well for KB, turn on the toggle. For a map that does, turn it off. It all depends on how that player wants to handle things. It is... their choice. No one can make them do anything.

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

More choice would be suggesting a Knock-Up toggle. Or a "KB To Repel" toggle. Or maybe IOs that do the same. Creating different effects to give people options to what they want it to do. 

I see... KB to KD isn't a choice, but KB to KU is. Are we sure we're not just being a little biased because of people that annoy us with their KB complaints?

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

How about instead of suggesting a Toggle, which I've already explained would be a massive pile of needless work which creates the perception of KB being WRONGBADFUN, you could suggest a few new IO sets for Melee, Ranged, and AoE Damage which have the KB to KD IO as the 6th IO in the set and give a variety of other set bonuses along the way. Then you could reasonably reduce the cost for yourself since you'd still need the IO that swaps the effect, but at least it'd still be part of a set you were interested in using and provide a Set Bonus?

 

That'd also be a lot less work for the Devs.

That's not a terrible idea. But it still wouldn't allow for on-the-go changes. I did like someone's earlier suggestion that running a mission to get the toggle power. There's also just making exclusive options for the power; so you can choose the one with KB or the one with KD. But you'd be stuck with it and unable to change back and forth. That seems like a bummer to me.

[Steampunkette]

7 hours ago, Rylas said:

Again, when I said "here" I was referring to this thread I started. I understand other people will have that mentality. There's nothing to be done about that, but they're not so large a population that KB players will be shamed or shunned out of being able to play like they like.

Uh, thanks... budd-a-rino? No strawman here. Of course arguments won't end. What highly opinionated divisive topics ever have arguments that end? But those people aren't the majority. And you're basically arguing something shouldn't be done because human beings are capable of being jerks. It's a poor argument. My suggestion wasn't made to end ridiculous forum arguments. Its about giving more choice and control to the player with a mechanic that's quite prevalent throughout the game. You can bemoan forum haters all you like, but it's irrelevant to the point of the suggestion.

 

I get it, you don't like people crying about KB. Neither do I. Stop listening to them. They're only your problem if you let them be.

It literally is adding a choice. I understand if you choose to see it as abolishing KB from the game. That doesn't make you right. You can't slot and unslot a KB/KD IO at whim in the middle of game play. You could detoggle and toggle a KB/KD power though. Like for a map that doesn't work well for KB, turn on the toggle. For a map that does, turn it off. It all depends on how that player wants to handle things. It is... their choice. No one can make them do anything.

I see... KB to KD isn't a choice, but KB to KU is. Are we sure we're not just being a little biased because of people that annoy us with their KB complaints?

That's not a terrible idea. But it still wouldn't allow for on-the-go changes. I did like someone's earlier suggestion that running a mission to get the toggle power. There's also just making exclusive options for the power; so you can choose the one with KB or the one with KD. But you'd be stuck with it and unable to change back and forth. That seems like a bummer to me.

KB to KD is already a choice people can make. KB to repel isn't. KB to KU isn't.  KD to KB isn't.

 

You're not increasing choice. You're increasing ways to make the same choice. Would you like to order the cheeseburger through the menu at the counter or the touchscreen at the table may seem like a choice, but you're still only able to get the cheeseburger. And setting it up that way makes it seem like ordering a Hamburger is the wrong idea. Much less the Chicken Sandwich.

 

And, again, 6 powersets out of ... shit... you count 'em... https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Primary_Power_Sets https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Secondary_Power_Sets 87? That's not including how the Crab, Bane, and Wolf spider powersets kind of overlap kind of don't. You could probably argue 88 or 89 by including Widows.

 

Is less prevalent than I feel you claim... it's likely more of the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon applied to negative experience.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Rylas]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

KB to KD is already a choice people can make. KB to repel isn't. KB to KU isn't.  KD to KB isn't.

 

You're not increasing choice. You're increasing ways to make the same choice. Would you like to order the cheeseburger through the menu at the counter or the touchscreen at the table may seem like a choice, but you're still only able to get the cheeseburger. And setting it up that way makes it seem like ordering a Hamburger is the wrong idea. Much less the Chicken Sandwich.

You're analogy falls flat. This isn't like ordering something you eat once. It's being able to change back and forth on how KB effect works. On the fly. Which certainly provides a lot more control and option to how a player can use their powers. It's like Adaptation in Bio Armor. Add in toggles for KB to KU if you like. KB to Repel. Personally, I have to question if that might make some powers have more mitigation than was intended for them, but whatever. 

 

Quote

And, again, 6 powersets out of ... shit... you count 'em... https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Primary_Power_Sets https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Secondary_Power_Sets 87? That's not including how the Crab, Bane, and Wolf spider powersets kind of overlap kind of don't. You could probably argue 88 or 89 by including Widows.

So before it was a tedious amount of work to "change all those powers", but now it's "there aren't that many sets". Which is it?

 

Quote

Is less prevalent than I feel you claim... it's likely more of the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon applied to negative experience.

And the amount of people being kicked from teams and pressured to use KB/KD IOs is less than I feel you claim. As much as I can be annoyed by it, I think I'd notice people more if they echoed that annoyance. You project Baader-Meinhoff on me, when perhaps you're guilty of it yourself. 

 

I specifically mentioned this earlier about not getting the confirmation bias I would expect during my experience in the game with KB players on teams I form. 

 

I can understand your own confirmation bias has been built around your love for KB and the rude players you've run into; that's inevitable. But don't apply that to me. I've spelled out more than once that I don't force my preferences on others. And for what it's worth, I'd tell anyone behaving that way to let people play how they want. 

[Steampunkette]

14 minutes ago, Rylas said:

You're analogy falls flat. This isn't like ordering something you eat once. It's being able to change back and forth on how KB effect works. On the fly. Which certainly provides a lot more control and option to how a player can use their powers. It's like Adaptation in Bio Armor. Add in toggles for KB to KU if you like. KB to Repel. Personally, I have to question if that might make some powers have more mitigation than was intended for them, but whatever. 

 

So before it was a tedious amount of work to "change all those powers", but now it's "there aren't that many sets". Which is it?

 

And the amount of people being kicked from teams and pressured to use KB/KD IOs is less than I feel you claim. As much as I can be annoyed by it, I think I'd notice people more if they echoed that annoyance. You project Baader-Meinhoff on me, when perhaps you're guilty of it yourself. 

 

I specifically mentioned this earlier about not getting the confirmation bias I would expect during my experience in the game with KB players on teams I form. 

 

I can understand your own confirmation bias has been built around your love for KB and the rude players you've run into; that's inevitable. But don't apply that to me. I've spelled out more than once that I don't force my preferences on others. And for what it's worth, I'd tell anyone behaving that way to let people play how they want. 

... The amount of cognitive bias, here, is strong. You keep Strawmanning to try and make me look like I'm wishy-washy. You stop that!

 

There's 6 sets where it's a "Problem". But there's other sets where there's 1 or 2 KB powers, which I've mentioned previously in this thread. To do an -entire- revamp for your toggle to actually function you'd need to change on the order of 70ish powers, total, spread out across 87 sets (89 if you wanna get fancy with it). And in the process you'd be neutering the functionality of powers like Force Bolt or TK Thrust whose sole goal is to get one dude away from the caster.

 

Even if they only focused in on the 6 "Problem Sets" that's still a lot of powers they'd have to go in and manually add a Caveat Power Use line which applied the KB Debuff and the KD implementation. And each of those lines they'd have to do based on the quantity of KB in the power itself. And all of it so the people who dislike KB can circumvent the KD IO.

 

And to do a KB to KU or KB to Repel or KD to KB or KU to KB toggle would take about the same amount of work. The Repel to KB toggle would be comparitively easy since there are, what? 6 Repel powers in the entire game?

 

As to the "Less than you claim" thing: I've never claimed there were thousands. Even hundreds. Or dozens. Only that it is a problem and following through with your suggestion would make that problem worse through appeal to authority arguments... Which is what already happens thanks to the KB to KD IOs. AGAIN you Strawman.

 

What you're asking for, here, is a disproportionate amount of work to result and a disproportionate negative response to result. I've tried to explain that as best I can. You'd be far better off asking for DPS Sets that have KD IOs as part of that set, perhaps even suggesting a few sets and bonuses.

[Rylas]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

... The amount of cognitive bias, here, is strong. You keep Strawmanning to try and make me look like I'm wishy-washy. You stop that!

 

There's 6 sets where it's a "Problem". But there's other sets where there's 1 or 2 KB powers, which I've mentioned previously in this thread. To do an -entire- revamp for your toggle to actually function you'd need to change on the order of 70ish powers, total, spread out across 87 sets (89 if you wanna get fancy with it). And in the process you'd be neutering the functionality of powers like Force Bolt or TK Thrust whose sole goal is to get one dude away from the caster.

 

Even if they only focused in on the 6 "Problem Sets" that's still a lot of powers they'd have to go in and manually add a Caveat Power Use line which applied the KB Debuff and the KD implementation. And each of those lines they'd have to do based on the quantity of KB in the power itself. And all of it so the people who dislike KB can circumvent the KD IO.

 

And to do a KB to KU or KB to Repel or KD to KB or KU to KB toggle would take about the same amount of work. The Repel to KB toggle would be comparitively easy since there are, what? 6 Repel powers in the entire game?

Not straw-manning, just pointing out areas where you seem a bit inconsistent. I understand your clarification, but it still seems a bit like having your cake and eating it too. I've even acknowledged that it would be a tedious job (to your first mention of it, none-the-less), so you really don't have to explain it a fifth time. Thanks.

 

Also, let's not put words in my mouth (by insinuation) by calling anything a "problem set". I've never used those words. I have expressed, repeatedly, my attitude to let people enjoy the sets and play them how they like.

 

And my suggestion neuters nothing. It would be a toggle, and if they wanted to use Force Bolt that way, they could leave the toggle off. I keep mentioning the whole on-the-fly control and choice, but it seems easier for you to ignore that aspect of the suggestion to keep propping up the strawman of "robbing the player of choice".

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

As to the "Less than you claim" thing: I've never claimed there were thousands. Even hundreds. Or dozens. Only that it is a problem and following through with your suggestion would make that problem worse through appeal to authority arguments... Which is what already happens thanks to the KB to KD IOs. AGAIN you Strawman.

 

What you're asking for, here, is a disproportionate amount of work to result and a disproportionate negative response to result. I've tried to explain that as best I can. You'd be far better off asking for DPS Sets that have KD IOs as part of that set, perhaps even suggesting a few sets and bonuses.

No, you've never claimed there were thousands. And I never said you did. You just keep bringing it up like the issue would be massive. Otherwise, why would you keep on about it so adamantly? And so what if some people will think it entitles them to think KB is bad? That's not really a supporting argument. That's not a problem that will ever go away, so I don't see why it should be the deciding factor in anything. You don't have to let it be your problem anymore than I don't let people who use KB be my problem. The only thing disproportionate might be your anger over these types of people.

 

Please note, I've said I'm totally open to better ways to implement the suggestion. My intent is to provide an idea that allows people to switch back and forth more freely between KB and KD. Something less stubbornly fixed than an IO you can't just change out every other mission, or whenever you care to switch up strategy.

[Steampunkette]

1. -I- am the one that brought up Problem sets, Rylas. Several posts ago. Again, you keep skimming posts or not really reading them.

2. I keep talking about the problems with the anti-KB pushback because it remains a point of contention. 

3. I've never said anything about robbing players of choice. Strawman. Stop that.

 

Final words from me: This idea is too much work for too little reward. Does not fix the central issue because lots of people won't bother with it. Will embolden "lrn2play" bullies to appeal to authority. Will lead to further threads to "Fix" knockback with emboldened authors 'cause "The Live Devs -and- the Homecoming Devs tried, so clearly it's a problem! They just need help getting it really fixed!"

 

There are better ways to fail to fix this perceived problem which have less impact on the development team's limited resources. If we're going to faff about with it, at least we can get some new IO Sets out of it.

 

I'm outie. Have fun!

[Rylas]

42 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

3. I've never said anything about robbing players of choice. Strawman. Stop that.

You know what, you're right; that's my bad. You only denied that this adds choice at all, through purely anecdotal reasoning. But my apologies, it's not my intent to strawman you or misrepresent you.

[Lumicat]

I would love to see a switch or even just make the KB to KD IO not unique so at least the player has the option. Of all the characters I play, the ones with lots of knockbacks are extra stressful to play as it is usually not well liked by players and it seems unnecessary.  At least give us options.

[PirateCrew]

5 hours ago, Rylas said:

Please note, I've said I'm totally open to better ways to implement the suggestion. My intent is to provide an idea that allows people to switch back and forth more freely between KB and KD. Something less stubbornly fixed than an IO you can't just change out every other mission, or whenever you care to switch up strategy.

I support that sentiment.  The ability to change overall knock- strategy depending on the mission or enemies would be better to me than only the individual-power slotting options we have now.  The "oh just put KB2KD IOs everywhere" option isn't much of one, for my energy blaster, without ruining way too many set bonuses and giving up enhancement values to get control over KB.  For now, I compromised by getting the KB out of energy torrent and nova, but leaving it alone in the single target attacks and taking hover to have an additional measure of KB reduction.  I'm holding off on remaking a peacebringer from Live until either KB control or new costuming options are available.

 

While I don't know if there is any existing lever in the code that would allow applying a character-wide -X% knockback magnitude (or add invisible 7th KB2KD enhancements to powers, or ????), I'd rather enjoy a discussion of possible approaches and feasibility, which I saw hints of in this thread, and not speculation over social pressure from pro/anti-KB cultures.  Every existing - and proposal for - choice that we get in game (costumes included) could be stifled in this manner over fears that someone sometime might pressure us to not wear such things, or not color our powers like that.  Only we as individuals can decide if a complaint is reasonable (I make my forcefield bubbles as mild as possible, for example) or not, and say "no" or /leaveteam to keep our own level of fun in balance with that of others in game.

[kelly Rocket]

I honestly would like to see not only this personal toggle power, but also a toggle power granted when you become a team leader that when you toggle it on, gives all your teammates within range a "buff" that converts all their knockbacks to knockdowns. 

[Megajoule]

37 minutes ago, kelly Rocket said:

I honestly would like to see not only this personal toggle power, but also a toggle power granted when you become a team leader that when you toggle it on, gives all your teammates within range a "buff" that converts all their knockbacks to knockdowns. 

Would I, as a team member, be informed of this toggle being activated?  Or would I be left to figure it out on my own?

[Rylas]

3 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

I honestly would like to see not only this personal toggle power, but also a toggle power granted when you become a team leader that when you toggle it on, gives all your teammates within range a "buff" that converts all their knockbacks to knockdowns. 

Nope. Why on earth should you be allowed to determine how someone plays?

[Redlynne]

3 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

but also a toggle power granted when you become a team leader that when you toggle it on, gives all your teammates within range a "buff" that converts all their knockbacks to knockdowns.

NO.

 

Team Leader modifiers that interfere with the way that other PC's characters FUNCTION should be avoided at all costs.  That's imposing "play MY way!" onto everyone in a Team that's a bridge too far.

[MunkiLord]

3 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

I honestly would like to see not only this personal toggle power, but also a toggle power granted when you become a team leader that when you toggle it on, gives all your teammates within range a "buff" that converts all their knockbacks to knockdowns. 

This is the worst suggestion I've seen. 

[PaxArcana]

3 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

gives all your teammates within range a "buff" that converts all their knockbacks to knockdowns. 

My /FF Mastermind would quit the team the instant you toggled that on.

He only has one power with KB - Force Bolt - but that power only DOES knockback (and, like, 1 damage).  Knockback is all it's good for ... and the reason MMs use it, is to keep themselves alive.  Stray mob aggro's on the /Forcefield MM?  S/he has three choices:
 

1. Panic and activate Bodyguard mode - pulling pets away from burning down the Boss, EB, or even AV the team might be facing;
2. Use ForceBolt to throw the enemy back, until the team's Brute or Tank can grab aggro back;
3. Faceplant.

#1 will get me yelled at, #3 gets me debt, and you just took #2 away from me?

Exit, stage left.

[kelly Rocket]

2 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

My /FF Mastermind would quit the team the instant you toggled that on.

He only has one power with KB - Force Bolt - but that power only DOES knockback (and, like, 1 damage).  Knockback is all it's good for ... and the reason MMs use it, is to keep themselves alive.  Stray mob aggro's on the /Forcefield MM?  S/he has three choices:
 

1. Panic and activate Bodyguard mode - pulling pets away from burning down the Boss, EB, or even AV the team might be facing;
2. Use ForceBolt to throw the enemy back, until the team's Brute or Tank can grab aggro back;
3. Faceplant.

#1 will get me yelled at, #3 gets me debt, and you just took #2 away from me?

Exit, stage left.

Leaving the team is your prerogative. Team Leader gets to decide whether he wants those sorts of powers on his team. Also Force Bolt works fine when converted to knockdown. I have a Toon that uses it with Sudden Acceleration just to spam it for chain knockdown. Knockdown is just as good as knockback for mitigation, as long as you have enough recharge to just dribble the target.

[PaxArcana]

Just now, kelly Rocket said:

Also Force Bolt works fine when converted to knockdown.

... not if (for example) I'm trying to pitch the guy into my Assault Bot's burn patch (so that the Assault will take aggro off of me), it doesn't.

Or punt him into the general melee/pig-pile around the Brute or Tanker (for the same reason), for that matter.