Opinion: More players should see Null the Gull

[Spotlore]

A majority of players are Heroes on Homecoming.  At least on Excelsior.  

 

I made my main a vigilante so that I could experience more of the games content on my fav character, only to find that the Rogue Islands are largely abandoned.  It's depressingly hard to find a teamup.  I'm always watching the LFG channel for red side teams looking for more.  If I'm not already in a group, I try to prioritize doing red side stuff.  I have a feeling I've only scratched the surface over there.  

 

For all those that don't know.  You can go to Pocket D and change any characters affiliation to be able to go into both red and blue zones.  Just talk to the seagull named Null the Gull on top of the parked box truck in the club.  For no cost at all, you can just tell him you want to be a vigilante or a rogue and unlock a ton of content for that character.  

 

Even better.  With the Oro teleporter, you can very quickly just teleport from blue to red and back again without even having to run through Pocket D.  Other then character themes, I can't think of any reason why a player wouldn't want to open up all that content.  

 

However, if you do, don't get discouraged to much when you cannot find a group.  It's that problem that makes it worse.  People say they don't go red cuz they can't find groups, and that makes it even harder to find red groups.   

[Zodai]

I have a Villian character on Everlasting, though it's true that most of my characters are Heroes.  At least from my perspective it's more about 'who that character is' (Since I have an RP focus, at least a bit even outside of Everlasting) and their identity that decides alignment to me.  I wouldn't want to change the alignment of my existing characters but I can agree that it's worthwhile encouraging more Villain players to come on and flesh out that side of the game.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Zodai

[PaxArcana]

1 hour ago, Spotlore said:

A majority of players are Heroes on Homecoming.

Don't assume they are heroes only because they don't know they have options.  Many - arguably, most - of those characters are heroes, because their players want them to be.

[Spotlore]

Thankfully my main is a Natural AR/Dev guy.  He's in the grey area, kinda like Deadpool.  He's not a "Bad guy", but he's no "Hero" either.  I mean, he shoots people to death.  Kinda hard to RP that I'm arresting people when I'm shooting them with missles and bullets.  😛   Vigilante also got me my favorite Title.  "Above the Law".  

[Zodai]

I think it'd be interesting to encourage more Villain characters so people have a reason to be more creative.  A lot of people will still have hero mains as their favorite but it'd at least give the Villains a chance to get up there population-wise.  Making characters is one of the strong parts of the game so maybe it'll encourage some to stick around if they make someone they end up liking.

[Call Me Awesome]

I tried redside back when COV launched and just couldn't get into it.  Once Going Rogue went live I changed my villains to blueside and hardly ever went back.

 

I just didn't enjoy the redside content and storyline so I've stayed blue.

[Zodai]

58 minutes ago, Call Me Awesome said:

I tried redside back when COV launched and just couldn't get into it.  Once Going Rogue went live I changed my villains to blueside and hardly ever went back.

 

I just didn't enjoy the redside content and storyline so I've stayed blue.

Could I ask why so, if you remember?  The first ~20 levels of Redside I played felt really nice to me, though it's been a month or so since I've touched my redside char.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Zodai

[Dying Breath]

Storytelling is actually much better redside, but I've never actually felt like a villain - more of a lackey or cat's paw than a real evil-doer.  I understand that it's hard to make content where you are the driver, but always carrying out someone else's nefarious plot just doesn't seem villainous enough to me.

 

Also the scenery kinda depresses me.  I prefer the bright sunny skies and inviting colour palate blue side.

[boggo2300]

To me there is nothing compelling or even just not eye-rolling about the missions red-side, nothing in any of those missions feels even remotely villainous, plus the level design of the zones in the Rogue Isles are just a pain in the butt to navigate for no real reason.  So I have on Vigilante and one Rogue both for character reasons, neither have done any red side content and aren't likely to

[boggo2300]

2 hours ago, Zodai said:

I think it'd be interesting to encourage more Villain characters so people have a reason to be more creative.  A lot of people will still have hero mains as their favorite but it'd at least give the Villains a chance to get up there population-wise.  Making characters is one of the strong parts of the game so maybe it'll encourage some to stick around if they make someone they end up liking.

It's no secret it's there, people aren't not running red side because they don't know it's there...

 

And the red/blue disparity was there in live as well, it's just not fun to most people is the only conclusion I can draw (I know it isn't to me)

[Zodai]

5 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

It's no secret it's there, people aren't not running red side because they don't know it's there...

 

And the red/blue disparity was there in live as well, it's just not fun to most people is the only conclusion I can draw (I know it isn't to me)

I'm aware people know it's there, it's more like... I feel that people are more drawn to hero-type characters, either culturally or within the context of the game themes having a more hero-centric focus.  Less awareness and more encouragement, so maybe someone might be interested to come up with a cool villain in response to hearing people were trying to come together more on it.  Trying to like draw people into the redside community, even if it's in a small way.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Zodai

[boggo2300]

15 minutes ago, Zodai said:

I'm aware people know it's there, it's more like... I feel that people are more drawn to hero-type characters, either culturally or within the context of the game themes having a more hero-centric focus.  Less awareness and more encouragement, so maybe someone might be interested to come up with a cool villain in response to hearing people were trying to come together more on it.  Trying to like draw people into the redside community, even if it's in a small way.

Fair enough, and best of luck to anyone that tries it,  personally not my cup of tea, I actually despise red side on this game, everything about it just doesn't work for me, the content seems deliberately written to prevent your villains being well, villainous, but thats just me, and more power to those that enjoy it, I hope the people that do enjoy it find more people to play with

Edited August 31, 2019 by boggo2300
typo

[Zodai]

Just now, boggo2300 said:

Fair enough, and best of luck to anyone that tries it,  personally not my cup of tea, I actually despise red side on this game, everything about it just doesn't work for me, the content seems deliberately written to prevent your villains bein well, villainous, but thats just me, and more power to those that enjoy it, I hope the people that do enjoy it find more people to play with

I get that, won't be for everyone : >  I think it's at least enjoyable enough that it's worthwhile for redside communities to be active, even if blue will always have more people in general

[Shazzie]

I started this game in CoH Beta. Liked it a hell of a lot more than I'd expected to, but it wasn't until CoV that I well and truly fell head over heels in love. Yes, redside is far more gritty and gloomy aesthetically than blueside, but the buildings just felt like they had more LIFE with the variations in shape, style, and of all things, THE ROOFTOPS, and, even the detritus- which is still signs of life. Though, yes, YES, it's often a well and true PITA to navigate a lot of it... so much water, so little even ground, so few streets for straight running... it was still my love (often viewed from the air, because navigation sans Flight could be just UGH). I loved all of it, from the archetypes to the zone styles (so much love for St. Martial) to the zone music (though Boomtown still has my favorite tracks of all zones) to the contacts, even if crazily enough my favorites of the contacts were inanimate objects: Radio, Slot Machine, Television. I can (and have) certainly now made base hero versions of the villainous archetypes here on Homecoming, but they- and all my other characters- have gone purple relatively early in their careers. The only character I have that's planned to do ALL THE STORY ARCS is restraining that 'all' to 'all villain story arcs'. At level 35 now and still happily mowing through the list, not bothering with waiting to Ouro them all, but unlocking contacts and doing them as I level her. Felt so good to unlock the title Army of Me, which is my absolute favorite for a Mastermind (which she is). 

 

You ever want a partner redside on Torchbearer, I will often be more than happy to join in with any of my army of purples. And while I haven't had much chance to RP in this game since years ago pre-CoV, I still have in-character reasons for my characters not being 'pure'; just like they all have something written in their bios, whether it be one simple sentence or something that hit maximum character limit. 

[Uun]

Prior to Homecoming, I'd been playing SWTOR for quite a few years. Over there you have the choice of playing Republic side or Imperial side. Contrary to the idea that most people are drawn to hero-type characters, population is much greater Imp-side. Not sure if it's the story lines or the the available ATs, but that game is much more active on the "villain" side, (although the end-game content is largely the same for both).

[Call Me Awesome]

12 hours ago, Zodai said:

Could I ask why so, if you remember?  The first ~20 levels of Redside I played felt really nice to me, though it's been a month or so since I've touched my redside char.

Mainly that I didn't like being the villain and particularly didn't like being a minion.  The zones didn't help but that was the main issue I had with redside.  I played a couple of characters to 50 there but it just wasn't me.

[Cix]

It's better now than it was, but at launch the early levels of CoV were nasty.  You started on Mercy Island then the second(?) mission required you to cross this whole hostile zone with confusing terrain and no travel power.  Snakes are tough solo, but adding bosses when teaming made them able to chew up low-level characters a few at a time.  They have a toxic cone attack, and toxic protection is thin at that level.

 

Then there's Arachnos.  They're pains in the ass at all levels.  They have a variety of nasty attacks and strong resistances to common damage.  Working for them is even worse.  They're arrogant and disdainful.

 

Finally, there's a whole lot of writing that tells me how my character thinks and acts.  "You slick back your hair and get ready to go to work."  Homie I don't even have hair.  One of there worst things is that they like to hand you the Stupid Ball.  Golly it's a shame your character couldn't tell they were being used/manipulated when you--the player--knew it from the start.

 

I played there a lot when several archetypes were redside only, so I'm not only salty, I'm burned out.

[VanguardXL]

As I said about CoV in another, similar thread...

 

Quote

As has been said, I didn't buy it to play "City of Henchmen".

Adding to that, playing it on Virtue was an exercise in watching VG after VG collapse in on themselves, not for lack of players, but that villains don't work or play well together. Someone has to be in charge, and nobody wants to take orders. Not to mention you always get two or three of lunatic characters trying to be the Joker with the serial numbers filed off, but only succeeded in being "lolsorandom" and working against anything trying to be done, simply to watch it all burn.

I've seen a few, a bare handful, of exceptions, but by and large being a villain means either you're a henchmen, or you're a mastermind that is trying to ride herd on psychotic cats. Villainy just isn't set up for group play in RP.

 

[RikOz]

I am, by choice, mostly a solo player, so availability of teams doesn't factor into my faction choices. I just ... genuinely prefer to play a hero. I'll agree that the writing and storytelling on redside is really good. Alas, it doesn't offset what I see as downsides.

 

As others have pointed out, playing a "villain" doesn't really feel "villainous". Aside from a handful of missions attacking Longbow, you spend most of your time beating up other criminals. That doesn't feel like being the most villainous, that just feels like being a bully. Most well-written villains in comics (and other media) aren't just evil for the sake of being evil, they have a genuine, worthwhile (if only in their own mind) end goal. As it is, our villains have no goal beyond becoming the most villainous villain. We don't even have the option of a goal as simple as "getting rich", because even the missions that are framed as robbing a bank or stealing a bunch of stuff don't actually result in a "haul". We just get the same Inf and salvage drops we'd get from any other mission. To "get rich" we have to play the AH market the same way the heroes do.

 

The environment also annoys me. After a while, "dark and gritty" just gets tiresome. I had a related problem with playing Horde in WoW, because while the writing was great, the environment was "all orcs, all the time" regardless of what race you actually played. This was really driven home for me during the Warlords of Draenor expansion, where we went back to the orc homeworld and saw that orcs are perfectly capable of impressive architecture, but our Horde orc aesthetic seemed to call for nothing but round, red-roofed hut after round, red-roofed hut. The actually impressive orc architecture on Azeroth, meanwhile, was all actually designed by a freaking goblin.

[DR_Mechano]

I will point out that VGs worked on Union mainly because, unlike Virtue, Union had a lower population that meant it could be combined into communal story telling. Dr Mechano was a well known villain who went from grumpy old man with robots to head of a major science corporation whose products even Heroes were purchasing (The Walkie-talkie toaster to be precise...for toast on the go!) and that came about because someone mentioned, off hand, in an RP story that they'd bought one and then it kept cropping up in other peoples stories til eventually it seemed like it was agreed en masse that everyone bought one.

 

I remember VEAT  focused groups lasting quite some time. My favorite was always a group which was the sort of 'suicide squad' of Arachnos. It was all the cast off that's made it through basic training, so they were still useful but all had some quirk that made them not fit into other Arachnos units. For example we had a Narcoleptic wolf spider who, nobody knows how, made it through basic training AND flight instructions to be the groups Flyer pilot (since he was the only one trained). Two cat girls who were the results of Arachnos Scientists doing what lonely nerdy scientists do then trying to explain why they'd be useful for Arachnos by shoving them into this reject bin of a unit. We had a long suffering Arbiter in charge of the whole unit who was on...sketchy..terms with the rest of Arachnos and this was her last chance to keep her post and her head by making the unit into something actually useful.

 

The most successful VGs were always based around Merc companies or the like though.

Edited August 31, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[VanguardXL]

16 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

I will point out that VGs worked on Union mainly because, unlike Virtue, Union had a lower population that meant it could be combined into communal story telling. Dr Mechano was a well known villain who went from grumpy old man with robots to head of a major science corporation whose products even Heroes were purchasing (The Walkie-talkie toaster to be precise...for toast on the go!) and that came about because someone mentioned, off hand, in an RP story that they'd bought one and then it kept cropping up in other peoples stories til eventually it seemed like it was agreed en masse that everyone bought one.

 

I remember VEAT  focused groups lasting quite some time. My favorite was always a group which was the sort of 'suicide squad' of Arachnos. It was all the cast off that's made it through basic training, so they were still useful but all had some quirk that made them not fit into other Arachnos units. For example we had a Narcoleptic wolf spider who, nobody knows how, made it through basic training AND flight instructions to be the groups Flyer pilot (since he was the only one trained). Two cat girls who were the results of Arachnos Scientists doing what lonely nerdy scientists do then trying to explain why they'd be useful for Arachnos by shoving them into this reject bin of a unit. We had a long suffering Arbiter in charge of the whole unit who was on...sketchy..terms with the rest of Arachnos and this was her last chance to keep her post and her head by making the unit into something actually useful.

 

The most successful VGs were always based around Merc companies or the like though.

That sound amazing, actually.

[Zodai]

Agreed, that sounds awesome!! 😄

 

And RP-wise like, hm... I can understand that villains would want to be on top, so it might be hard for them to get a full thing going when ICly they all want to have dominance and achieve their highest ambitions.  That's something that's come up in my own villain character as well.

 

Now I'm interested in figuring out how those types of chars could fit together in an RP, aaa

 

Oh, and as for the bank robbing thing!  Even if stuff like INF is there, I've always seen it as like, 'preparing for whatever X plan they have in mind' The rewards aren't substantially different mechanics-wise but they can make sense in-character and in-universe.

[Abraxus]

I visited Null just this morning, to bring two Red side toons, over to the Blue side.  I had them over there waiting for someone I usually play with, to express an interest to play over there.  In 4 months, none of them have.  So, now they are where I tend to spend all of my time, and they will finally get their shot!

[TheOtherTed]

5 hours ago, Uun said:

Prior to Homecoming, I'd been playing SWTOR for quite a few years. Over there you have the choice of playing Republic side or Imperial side. Contrary to the idea that most people are drawn to hero-type characters, population is much greater Imp-side. Not sure if it's the story lines or the the available ATs, but that game is much more active on the "villain" side, (although the end-game content is largely the same for both).

I'd vote story lines (since the Imp and Pub ATs were mirror images of each other).  However, even within each story, I felt like I had more flexibility with regards to my character's "place" in the grand scheme of things.  I loved playing my Imperial Agent, precisely because she walked a "thin red line" between doing the bidding of the Sith, while trying to contain collateral damage caused by their excesses.  She was loyal to the Empire, but recognized that the Empire really wasn't just the Sith (whatever they might say).

 

You could also go full-on dark side with your Agent, or play in a way consistent with a deep-over Republic saboteur, or go the route of a career-minded officer and walk a different thin red line.  Maybe I could get that here, but not without some metagaming (or at least where I draw my personal line).

 

...and now the only thing keeping me from booting up SWTOR again is the endless walking you have to do...

[Spotlore]

I stopped playing SWTOR after finding it so hard to find players to gank.  There is open PvP in a few places, but it wasn't enough.  I played a Sith to max level, got burned out and uninstalled.  Couldn't kill players talking to NPC's, couldn't find any quest bosses to camp in open world, even the first time you get flagged for PvP (I was excited to get ganked as soon as I tried to leave town) It was a one faction zone...  WHAT WAS THE POINT?!  Anyways yeah, SWTOR was neutered by the bleeding hearts of players that can't take the excitement of a random intense encounter with the enemy.  On that mater, I was also disappointed in CoH for the same reason, but its PvE content is more compelling to me.  The core gameplay here and the creativity of character design and some of the Bios players come up with keep me coming back for more.