Make Origins More Relevant

Not really a specific suggestion so much as a call for brainstorming. If the Homecoming devs are planning on future content and Issues, what could be done to make your origin feel relevant? Maybe origin-specific mission arcs? Origin-synergy with IOs or temp powers? Origin-specific foes, kind of like with Void Hunters but perhaps more sanely balanced?

I dunno. Ideas?

Origins should not be more relevant.

Origins should not be more relevant.

Interesting position. Explain?

Interesting position. Explain?

Because it's a decision I made on all my characters with the knowledge that it isn't relevant, and there's no way to change it.

Interesting position. Explain?

Because it's a decision I made on all my characters with the knowledge that it isn't relevant, and there's no way to change it.

Brainstorming idea: When making origins relevant, allow origins to be respecced.

Not really a specific suggestion so much as a call for brainstorming. If the Homecoming devs are planning on future content and Issues, what could be done to make your origin feel relevant? Maybe origin-specific mission arcs? Origin-synergy with IOs or temp powers? Origin-specific foes, kind of like with Void Hunters but perhaps more sanely balanced?

 

I dunno. Ideas?

I am not the creative type in this area (all my creativity lives and dies in the kitchen), but I really like the idea of this.  And content in this area could be extended from lvl 5 to beyond 50.  And you wouldn't necessarily have to create a ton of new stuff - you could use existing contacts (they are all tied to the different origins already), existing zones, and a lot of the existing mobs - just need 5 different origin specific foes, write the arcs, and decide what goodies go with it - special powers, special enhancements

+1 for Brainstorming further

Interesting position. Explain?

 

Because it's a decision I made on all my characters with the knowledge that it isn't relevant, and there's no way to change it.

Agreed. And even if you could change it with Null the Gull, Origins have been established to be relevant for RP purposes only and should remain as such.

Your origin is relevant insofar as you want bonus damage from a Blackwand or a Nemesis Staff.  I like the Blackwand, I always pick magic as my origin.

After I've picked up a few attacks from my main powers, my origin isn't relevant for anything.  :P

Interesting position. Explain?

 

Because it's a decision I made on all my characters with the knowledge that it isn't relevant, and there's no way to change it.

 

Brainstorming idea: When making origins relevant, allow origins to be respecced.

This is something that we've known for a long time would be very difficult to implement.

Interesting position. Explain?

 

Because it's a decision I made on all my characters with the knowledge that it isn't relevant, and there's no way to change it.

 

Agreed. And even if you could change it with Null the Gull, Origins have been established to be relevant for RP purposes only and should remain as such.

They were established as the source of your low level mission content, they were never meant to be completely arbitrary as a game mechanic.  I agree they have become so, but that's no reason not to revisit it.

I'm confused with all those saying no...there isn't really an idea here, just brainstorming...what's there to say no to?

There are already magic villains, science villains, technology villain, natural villains, and maybe mutant villains (Outcasts?) so this is just expaniding on those ideas.

Interesting position. Explain?

Because it's a decision I made on all my characters with the knowledge that it isn't relevant, and there's no way to change it.

Brainstorming idea: When making origins relevant, allow origins to be respecced.

This is something that we've known for a long time would be very difficult to implement.

Are you talking about something wonky/krufty in the code? Otherwise the only problem I see with allowing you to change your origin via respec (or Null, great idea!) is that you could end up with a bunch of useless enhancements. There are a number of solutions to that, including just letting you convert them to the appropriate origin as part of your own origin change. I mean SOs map 1-for-1. Are there any IOs that care about your origin?

But yeah, if there's some weird baked-in thing with the code that makes this a nightmare, I see the problem.

Are you talking about something wonky/krufty in the code? Otherwise the only problem I see with allowing you to change your origin via respec (or Null, great idea!) is that you could end up with a bunch of useless enhancements. There are a number of solutions to that, including just letting you convert them to the appropriate origin as part of your own origin change. I mean SOs map 1-for-1. Are there any IOs that care about your origin?

 

But yeah, if there's some weird baked-in thing with the code that makes this a nightmare, I see the problem.

So lets not allow origin respecs.  Like Shinobu’s example of the Nemesis Staff or the Blackwand, there was a time before the Staff or Wand, and if you had a natural origin when they came out, you were out of luck.  Unless, of course you rolled a magic/tech or had a magic/tech alt.  This would be no different.

There are going to be 3 options...

You will hate any new content, in which case no harm comes to you as you can just not participate

You will not care, same as above

You will love it, in which case the worst reason to NOT do something would be because you don’t have a specifc origin.

  a.) you do have a origin, so there would be something for you

  b.) you can always create a character with a new origin

Saying no to something because you “might” not have the right origin would be like a lvl 30 player saying no to endgame content because they might not get there...

I think changing origin is difficult at best to add to the game due to it interacting with the Enhancement system, which is a jumble of mess under the hood.  I don't know what would happen if you were to change from, e.g., Magic to Tech while your powers were slotted with a bunch of Magic SO enhancements, but there's a decent chance the game would s*** the bed.  (And unslotting them to reslot as part of the changeover has its own headaches, as does just somehow transforming them to other SOs)

Should just delete origins tbh, they're only relevant in deciding what DO/SO enhancements you get, which nobody uses in the first place.

If you want to pretend your character has magic powers or is a mutant, you are free to do that without locking it in place with a literally useless mechanic.

Should just delete origins tbh, they're only relevant in deciding what DO/SO enhancements you get, which nobody uses in the first place.

 

If you want to pretend your character has magic powers or is a mutant, you are free to do that without locking it in place with a literally useless mechanic.

You are free to pretend ANYTHING without a game mechanic.

Want NPC costumes that let you look like a Rikki or a Lost?  Just pretend you do

Want illusion control on Dom’s? Just pretend you do

I think changing origin is difficult at best to add to the game due to it interacting with the Enhancement system, which is a jumble of mess under the hood.  I don't know what would happen if you were to change from, e.g., Magic to Tech while your powers were slotted with a bunch of Magic SO enhancements, but there's a decent chance the game would s*** the bed.  (And unslotting them to reslot as part of the changeover has its own headaches, as does just somehow transforming them to other SOs)

While being fully aware I don't know how the game is coded, swapping enhancements shouldn't be that hard. DOs might be a bit more complex than SOs since there are more variables, but each SO has a "representative" for each origin. And while there are more DO permutations, you only need to match one of them to make it work. I mean there are only so many enhancements in the game. It shouldn't be too hard to create a lookup table.

IOs and training aren't affected. I forget, are HOs?

Should just delete origins tbh, they're only relevant in deciding what DO/SO enhancements you get, which nobody uses in the first place.

TBH that was my thinking at first. I find it odd that one of the very first decisions you make when creating a character is to pick an origin. Aside from being a gate for enhancement drops, it pretty much never comes up again. Why bother? Either get rid of origins entirely (and globally reduce the DO/SO drop rates to compensate) or make that decision worth something interesting. I would just rather it be the latter than the former.

Just before the game was announced to be shutting down, I had an idea and did some quick mock-ups of an origin-based enhancement window.  The scope of the idea needed some animations and sounds though so I never got past some basic sketches for a Magic-based enhancement window.

To get an idea of what I'm talking about, imagine you made your character Natural Origin.  You'd have the option of a basic enhancement window like current or one of a set of Natural-based backgrounds that emphasize what would be considered natural training such as a Gym/Boxing Ring and when you put an enhancement in a power, you might hear the smack of fists hitting flesh or the clanking of gym weights.

Had I put the effort into it then, I might eventually come up with blended origin enhancement windows like Tech+Magic might be a popular one.  Of course, this would all just be cosmetic.

If you're making suggestions around origins, I'd suggest actually making a suggestion rather than just test the waters because, regardless of what suggestion it is, you will get push-back.  It's better to demonstrate why an idea is good and have other people amend or tear-down that as it gets us somewhere rather than speculating about feelings.  One consideration I'd likely make with regards to Origin content is mixed origins.  Dual Origin Enhancements kind of touch on this but, like me for example, I've got a long list of characters who are Science+Magic or Tech+Magic and I'm sure there are a lot of individuals who have a combo of 2 or possibly more origins.

If it is possible to allow respecs on origins, and that would include converting any slotted SO/DO enhancements to slotted enhancements of an appropriate type, then sure.

An arc (or two or three) based on origin.

An IO set based on origin.  Since damage is the one and only thing that everyone can do, that is where they would have to be slotted, but the specifics could change from origin to origin regarding set bonuses and they could all have a different "rider" enhancement (mutant might offer a chance at bonus smashing damage while natural might have a chance at a DoT and magic might have a chance at bonus negative energy damage, that sort of thing).

Origin-specific enemies I am not sure about.  Expanding that idea to cover every character seems like overkill.  For Kheldians it is special, to make it for everyone is just monotonous.

Besides, do the Widows and Crabs have these types of foes?

But if I was doing this I would do it this way:  Each origin type would have a specific enemy faction appearing in all of their arcs, however many that might be.  Magic origin characters might always have to fight the Circle of Thorns, natural origin characters might always fight the Council.  Whatever.

Them each of those factions could have a new enemy type that appears only in those arcs.

So the Council might have a "Council Ultra-Soldier" that could have a slight bonus against natural characters, but those "Council Ultra-Soldiers" would only appear during the missions that were part of the natural character's special story arc(s).

But I count this as pure dream stuff.  Wish-list items that I do not expect to see the light of day in the game as it exists now.

Maybe if they make a CoH 2 some day...

Another thing they could do, if we're talking new arc content (which I agree is kind of wish-listy), is create arc genres based on origin.

Natural? You get more "detective noir" and "indiana jones" style arcs (Journey to the Center of the Earth, etc, although that could overlap with Science next.)

Science? You're getting into pulp silver age arcs with Kirby-like cosmic baddies.

Tech? More arcs that take you to other dimensions, time travel, or fighting high-tech foes.

Mutant? Maybe arcs that involve conflicts between mainstream humanity and those who are "different," and deal with the future of both.

Magic? You're dealing with demons, cults, Lovecraftian horrors, and mysterious ancient forces.

I'm not specifically talking about the kinds of enemies you'd fight in these arcs, although that would also apply. I mean the nature of the conflict and story of the arcs themselves. And each genre would be more likely to drop DO/SO enhancements that relate to its associated origin. And they wouldn't be exclusive to characters of that origin, just more likely to come up as radio/newspaper missions, perhaps. I mean unless they wanted to go all out and create genre-specific contacts to kick them off.

Having Origins does mean something to a lot of players. If anything I think it would be more interesting to add a couple more Origins.

Ideas for simple ways to make Origins more relevant?

-Paper/Radio/Tips missions have a few Origin specific variants thrown into the mix that can feature some interactions with those aspects of the in game lore and characters ties to Origins (like the low level contacts)

-Some mid and high level arcs for each Origin that grant a badge upon completion

-More Origin specific titles

-Low, and I mean low, unenhanceable buff vs same Origin enemy groups

-Some origin specific costume sets (in name only, these would be available to all for use. AS IT SHOULD BE)

Origin-based content is a fool’s errand, because there’s so many different ways origins can be played. There’s no way to write one-size-fits-all content using origins as a base. The Juggernaut and Dr. Strange are both Magic origin characters, but they couldn’t be more different otherwise. Batman and Superman are both Natural origin, but the things they deal with are on completely different scales. It’s far more sensible to do what the devs did, and just write the interesting content they could without trying to shoehorn some connection to the player character that’s likely to miss the mark.

Origin-based content is a fool’s errand, because there’s so many different ways origins can be played. There’s no way to write one-size-fits-all content using origins as a base. The Juggernaut and Dr. Strange are both Magic origin characters, but they couldn’t be more different otherwise. Batman and Superman are both Natural origin, but the things they deal with are on completely different scales. It’s far more sensible to do what the devs did, and just write the interesting content they could without trying to shoehorn some connection to the player character that’s likely to miss the mark.

Quoted to agree.

If someone comes along with something like, "Hey, I had this great idea and it ties into origins," I'd definitely consider it on its own merits.  The proposal of, "someone should come up with great ideas, and they should tie those ideas into origins" seems... a little attenuated, to me.

Origin-based content is a fool’s errand, because there’s so many different ways origins can be played. There’s no way to write one-size-fits-all content using origins as a base. The Juggernaut and Dr. Strange are both Magic origin characters, but they couldn’t be more different otherwise. Batman and Superman are both Natural origin, but the things they deal with are on completely different scales. It’s far more sensible to do what the devs did, and just write the interesting content they could without trying to shoehorn some connection to the player character that’s likely to miss the mark.

That's mechanical differences.

If you're talking content, the magic based types despite the Juggernaut being basically a Tanker/Brute hybrid, he still is the product of the mystic entity Cyttorak and his abilities manifest from a gem.  Either him or Dr. Strange, you're still talking about arcs dealing with magic objects, deities and plots centered around things that find these aspects central to progressions.

For Natural, you might be dealing with direct human preservation by bringing in terrorists, disarming weapons or just rescuing people from collapsing buildings.

I think you're missing the point.  When you pick up a contact, it's not always easy to tell what you're even dealing with.  I think the old devs even tried to divide the kind of stories by origin before but kind of fell through as many arcs try to be a hodge-podge of anything so any person's characters would feel like they fit.  The idea here is do the reverse: make the content and then if it fits your character (or you don't care), do it.  If it doesn't, then don't.

There’s no way to write one-size-fits-all content using origins as a base.

I feel like you're trying to apply an impossible standard to the idea and then rejecting it because it can't live up to that standard. CoH already sends your "Superman" and "Batman" on missions to clear gang members from warehouses, and then into portals into other dimensions/timelines to fight aliens. No one's head explodes. If you're deeply into your concept as a street vigilante, you just bypass the content that doesn't fit that. Adding origin-themed/oriented mission content would just be more of that. And the vast majority of players aren't so deeply into their concept that they filter missions based on some kind of setting or genre standard.

Frankly I'm baffled at resistance to the idea of making some aspect of the game more interesting. I mean I expect people to say it's unworkable or possibly confusing or even flat out impossible without a a major code overhaul, but if your objection amounts to "that might make me have an opinion about my origin" I'm kind of at a loss...