Neiska

So going by your logic ITFs are over tuned because people are ostracized or strongly encouraged into playing them. Not that I actually believe this is true, just pointing out the fallacy here. And I have yet to see anything that encourages AE. If anything, this thread and others like it discourages its use by the "nerf it" crowd at large. Energy Melee is good for ST, and ST only. The rest? middle of the pack I would say, not so good that they are OP. VS things like, oh I don't know, the RoP, TW, sentinel max target reduction, loss of the teleport code, and so on. Meanwhile, there are sets like Dark Armor that are almost unplayable without Incarnates. Doable? Yes. But it requires popping blue inspirations like candy. And I wouldn't call having to rely on outside tools or measures a good way to "balance" a set. This is doubly true when you assume someone is "old world leveling" their way up entirely through story arc's and contact missions. I would call many sets quite difficult to level in that circumstance. And I hope you and I would both agree that many sets are subpar, only until the very end of character development. I mean, how many builds here on the forums are "once you have Ageless you will be fine"? And yet I have never heard calls to nerf, oh I don't know, Fire Blast, Time Manipulation, Invulnerability, Illusion, Domination, or even the before mentioned Energy Melee. Funny that. Seems to me that some things are perfectly fine to be permitted to be overturned to the point where other builds are (achm) discouraged, by your definition. Lastly, what precisely do you mean by "overtuned?" I mean there are many, many powersets that are capable of things that sets like TW never could do, yet they remain untouched. I mean if we are going by "anyone who can solo an AV/GM" as the goalpost here, TW was hardly unique in that capability and only doable in certain situations. And I am sorry, but I had to laugh when you highlighted TW and said "this deserves commendation" when very few play it now. In your mind, that is a noteworthy feat? To make a set undesirable to play? That's the goal here? Call me skeptical.

I would first like to say normally I agree with you on a lot of things Bill, but I think the active population thing isn't so simple and clear cut as that. 1. First off, COVID. For a year most of the planet was locked indoors, which I suspect led to a lot of people playing computer games more than normal. Now that life has returned to normal, at least in some parts of the world, that might be easing up and people doing other things. 2. The "omg its back!" factor has worn off. HC has been around for a little bit now and the zerg rush to enjoy nolstalga has worn off for most I suspect. Some came back, played, had a good time, and moved on. Some might return, some may be gone for good. Normal activity I'd say. 3. More games have come out, such as Elden Ring that had something like 12 million copies sold in its initial quarter or something like that. I would wager that a good chunk of the players who were here are now moving onto other things, whatever new game attracts them. 4. I do agree with what I believe your general point has been, more nerfs than buffs. And it would be disingenuous for someone to claim that won't affect player population. Some can go "it's for balance purposes" which to me the "why" is irrelevant, when you speak about people leaving. I do hasten to add we can't prove this, it's just a hunch or theory. But I would bet that over-correction has played a part, even if a smaller (or larger) role than some might think. I mean, look at titan weapons - once the most popular set. Now? I rarely see one at all. I have not the head to claim if it is balanced now or not, but I do think it's pretty telling when a set goes from the most popular, to one of the least played with a single change. So, it's kind of a multi-sided issue to my mind. But from where I sit, we have lost more than we have gained. True, we did get a new electrical set, and several updates and changes. But I think we lost more than we gained overall. And these tests of further removing inf gain, or tweaking the merit system, certainly doesn't help matters. Personally, I go by "if it's not broke, don't fix it." So what if some things are over-tuned? Game balance? In CoH? Kind of a moot point to my mind. And we have far more things that "underperform" than "overperform." And we aren't playing for money, titles, championships, so on. For good or bad, changes for the sake of change rarely has a positive effect on a community. And I for one wish they would do their "balancing" in the other direction, as in propping up the weaker sets/ats/powers, instead of bringing down the top things. That doesn't balance anything, that just changes what the next OP thing is. I mean, I can't recall where they took a set that was bad, like mercs, and turned them into something not necessarily the new top pick, but at least viable or competitive. My thoughts about it.

Funny, I find the same handful of people going "Nerf X thing!" Except I don't just casually consider those whose stance I happen to disagree with as trolls, even though some of them have yet to post any actual data, citation, or sources to support their points. I am not saying you, just some among the Nerf crowd are just as likely to make claims without proof. At least I post examples and sources.

The most important bits are the Pet Aura enhancements, which makes your pets tougher. And the Knockback to Knockdown Sudden Acceleration, without it your robot will be pushing things out of your own AoE, which is your primary damaging attack.

@provoked Hello again, Here is a SO build as cheap as I could make, I kept only the "must haves" which is the KB to KD for your T3, and all the Pet Aura enhancements. Here are the highlights - You still hit the DEF numbers. You will have over 45% Def to everything, but this will take using Power Boost and then Foresight. Your Foresight will also have 100% uptime, which will leave you room to take Ageless for END issues you may have. But your resists will be low, but you have bodyguard to compensate. You will also have group fly which is fantastic for robots if you want to have your own team of hover-blasters. You will also have web grenade, in order to trap things in your t3 robots fire pools. Another upside is that you could use this build and just upgrade your slots as you go, no rebuild really required. As far as what difficulty this could do, it's hard to say. You have the defense certainly, but the resists I am not sure about. But I imagine it can do +3/8. But you will definitely need your first Level shift for your pets before you do +4/8 I hope this suits your needs. Again, this is "far" from optimized, but it's the best I could put together when on a very strict budget. Here is a snip of the values. Please note that it is missing 9% def from your T2 pets bubbles. This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.1.2.5 https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn Click this DataLink to open the build! Level 50 Technology Mastermind Primary Power Set: Robotics Secondary Power Set: Time Manipulation Power Pool: Flight Power Pool: Fighting Power Pool: Speed Power Pool: Leadership Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery Villain Profile: Level 1: Battle Drones -- CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(A), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(3), Dmg-I(3), Dmg-I(5), Acc-I(5), SprCmmoft-Rchg/PetAoEDef(7) Level 1: Time Crawl -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(11) Level 2: Temporal Mending -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(11), EndRdx-I(43), EndRdx-I(46), RechRdx-I(48), RechRdx-I(48) Level 4: Time's Juncture -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(37), EndRdx-I(48), Slow-I(50), Slow-I(50) Level 6: Equip Robot -- EndRdx-I(A) Level 8: Hover -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(34), EndRdx-I(37), EndRdx-I(47) Level 10: Kick -- Empty(A) Level 12: Protector Bots -- DefBuff-I(A), EdcoftheM-PetDef(13), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(13), ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(15), SvrRgh-PetResDam(15), SprMarofS-EndRdx/+Resist/+Regen(17) Level 14: Tough -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(23), ResDam-I(23), EndRdx-I(25), EndRdx-I(34) Level 16: Distortion Field -- Slow-I(A), Slow-I(17), Slow-I(19), EndRdx-I(19), EndRdx-I(21), EndRdx-I(21) Level 18: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(43) Level 20: Maneuvers -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(40), EndRdx-I(40), EndRdx-I(40) Level 22: Weave -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(34), EndRdx-I(39), EndRdx-I(39) Level 24: Fly -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A) Level 26: Assault Bot -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A), SlbAll-Build%(27), Acc-I(27), Dmg-I(29), Dmg-I(29), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31) Level 28: Farsight -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(31), DefBuff-I(31), RechRdx-I(33), RechRdx-I(33), EndRdx-I(33) Level 30: Group Fly -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A) Level 32: Upgrade Robot -- EndRdx-I(A) Level 35: Web Envelope -- Immob-I(A), Immob-I(36), Immob-I(36), EndRdx-I(36), EndRdx-I(37) Level 38: Scorpion Shield -- DefBuff-I(A), EndRdx-I(39) Level 41: Chrono Shift -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(42), Heal-I(42), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(43) Level 44: Photon Grenade -- Dmg-I(A), Dmg-I(45), EndRdx-I(45), EndRdx-I(45), Acc-I(46), Acc-I(46) Level 47: Tactics -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(47) Level 49: Power Boost -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 1: Supremacy Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A) Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A) Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A) Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(7), Heal-I(9) Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(9) Level 50: Musculature Total Core Revamp Level 50: Ion Total Core Judgement Level 50: Ageless Total Core Invocation Level 50: Support Total Core Graft Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface Level 1: Battle Drone Level 26: Assault Bot Level 12: Protector Bot Level 24: Afterburner ------------

Speak for yourself. I still had to shelve my hover blaster who relied on RoP and Barrier to survive. And my Widow. And my Stalker. The enflame update was nice for MMs though.

Funny, because I shown your comments to my co worker who has a masters in finance and he laughed too. Here, its actually pretty easy to prove you wrong - Lets say you and bill gates both are buying a hamburger. He has vastly more wealth than you do, yet pays the same price. How does your bank account balance affect the price? It doesn't. They are going to charge based on the market, which is supply and demand. We do agree that Supply chases demand, which determines the price, which has been my point this entire time. Glad to see we finally agree on something. But here, I will do you one even better. Show me one real life example where a government cut wages to stop inflation. Go ahead. Tell me a government that has done that. Oh, You can't? Want to know why? Because it's never been done before. Some governments have set fixed prices for things, but that is not the same as lowering peoples wages, which is what you are suggesting. Here, I will even cite a source for you. Here is a snip from the WEF (World Economic Forum) And that would be check and mate. Moreover, I find it funny you keep using ad hominem statements rather than addressing my points. Not once have you presented math, proof, or anything that supports your point aside from "trust me."

Sure, and I got no issue with that. But the how/way some "ask" is worse than people conversating in the lfg channel in the first place. I have seen some rather aggressive "requests" that I will not repeat here. "How" you communicate is just as important as the "what" you communicate. But someone going "ZOMG STOP TALKING IN LFG" or worse makes me eyeroll more than 2 people chatting about something in the channel.

Hello @provoked I will be happy to help you but I am at work right now and can't post a build, but here's a few tidbits to help you out. The good news - Robots/Time can be quite strong even on a budget. Especially if you take Mace epic pool and get power boost, as using that before Farsight adds roughly 16% to your DEF. The bad news - Robots is a late bloomer, you will feel hobbled until 32, when you get your t3 robots missile attack which counts for roughly 80% of your total damage. So expect to play defensively until then. My other personal complaint about /Time is the lack of any END tools, but that's not a dealbraker. /Time is still top teir for MMs, it just means you are more reliant on blue inspirations or ageless. But I will make a SO build for you when I get home, so stay tuned.

Yes, that's precisely how a closed/contained system works. Because we don't have things such as EBITA (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization), GAAP, EPS. Moreover, you are using a form of Amalgamation to suggest artificial outside depreciation of net revenue, in order to combat a hypothetical inflation that hasn't even happened. The closest thing we have would be a Bull Market, that is effectively a stock market that can be applied to anything that can be traded. You are posing a correlation coefficient where there is none. For example, you suggest an artificial ceiling where there isn't one. A person can earn as much money as they desire, the only pacing mechanism is time. The only "ceiling" that exists, is the limit cap on individual prices, but not a character's net worth. They might be able to hold only a certain amount but keep unlimited in supply in unopened mail to themselves. Moreover, there is a key factor in inflation that you neglect to even mention - interest. There is "zero" interest in the game market, which with time, is one of the fundamental pillars that control both inflation and deflation. And without interest, that pretty much blows your entire argument out of the water. What we have is stock, supply, and the amount of money people have. No, it costs 7 million, because that is the lowest price someone is willing to sell them for at the time you pulled that from the air. Tomorrow someone might decide to sell for 3 million, or 2 million. There is wide variance. But here is a real-world example - If people are paying higher prices, then you increase the supply to compensate. You don't cut everyone's wages, which is what you are effectively suggesting. You increase the supply until the demand and supply reach an equilibrium. You need "more" farmers and producers, not "less." Another real-world example would be new technology. Something brand new and off the market is expensive, because there are only so many of them. The amount of money in the market where they are doesn't matter, 10 million or 100 billion, the company is going to charge whatever it likes for that new thing that only they can provide, and if people want it, then they "have" to pay it. Until the supply catches up to where everyone can afford one, assuming no one holds a monopoly on them. Such as when the PS5's first came out. I can guarantee you if all farming stopped, that in a matter of time prices would reach sky high because the amount that people find patrolling, doing normal actives, would be woefully inadequate to meet the demand. Though I do suppose that some demand would go down as some players would quit over such a drastic decision, so there is that. And what you are suggesting, lowering the amount of that people earn, would not cause prices to go down as that would not change the supply, nor the demand. It would in fact simply increase the amount of time/farming required to buy the same things they did before, which would compound the problem. Moreover, it would only widen the gap between the "haves" and the "have nots" as the "haves" can already likely afford whatever they wish already, and the "have nots" who can't currently afford things now, will be in even worse straights and have to earn more effective buying power to purchase what they need. "That's" how actual markets work, Dunning Kruger.

You know, the only response to that would be "no you are" but that would give you more credit than you merit. Regarding your other post. That isn't how economies work at all. You are only taking one side into account - the demand. You aren't even considering supply into account, or the rate of consumption, or the withdraw of currency from the market, and several other factors. You are trying to make it sound as if - less currency = good, to keep prices down. No, that isn't what keeps pricing down, regardless of how much money is there, is irrelevant. It's how much stock there is, vs the need for it. In our case, it's how much is being put up for auction, vs how much demand for it. Here, a screenshot of an IO used on very nearly every build - I would say that is sitting at a pretty good price. Now on live, others said that was going for 10 times that. NOT a good price I would say. And for example, you remove the supply out of the equation, in this case farmers, being the main supply, the number of these on the market will drop sharply, leading to an increase in price, regardless of how much money is in the market or how much people have. It wouldn't matter if someone has 10 million or 2 billion, the rarity of materials goods or services balanced against the demand for them, is what controls pricing. NOT the amount of money in the pool. If there is only one of these? Lots of money to buy. If there is a lot of them? Not much money to buy. Too many of them? Very cheap to buy. Its Supply vs Demand. The "rate of earnings" you describe is used to calculate things like Interest, not pricing. Thanks for playing though.

"I have said elsewhere blah blah blah. No I won't say how. Just trust me. Blah." Who is the hyperbolic one here, really? Random Bullshit Go!

No, you stated some numbers you completely made up, failed to prove the math, handwaved math proving you wrong, and now are playing semantical word games. Your argument literally is - "It is possible to get X amount if I run 3 different accounts doing 3 different things and combine my efforts. Thus, it should be nerfed, and screw over the 99% of people who do not play that extreme. No, I won't prove it. You just have to trust me." That is like saying we should outlaw owning a car because there are drunk drivers. Your math, nor suggestion, doesn't hold water.

Orly? You tried to insinuate that it is possible to both farm a character from 1 to 50 and make 1 billion in 5 hours. Which has been proven to be BS. You can get to level 50 in 5 hours yes. And you can make 1 billion, if you use 3 separate farmers on 3 separate maps. But suggesting you take 1 alt, and 1 active farmer, on the same map, and making both level 50 and 1 billion in 5 hours is entirely false. The only way that is possible is using other outside AFK farmers to artificially boost your INF to make that possible, which shouldn't even be in the equation. Now if you don't mind, stop citing things you made up, and go "I cited stuff elsewhere, my reputation says so" And let's let it rest as GM Widow asks. Yes?

I guess I am far better at making moneys than leveling alts then! 😆 I am not disbelieving; I am surprised honestly. What map I run usually depends on what I am playing. For my Robot MM team, I run the Asteroid. For my Demon MM team, I run Night at the Movies. If I am leveling an alt, I play my two savage/bio brutes with my alt in the background, usually on the asteroid map. I usually do it for an hour or so before I get bored and take a break. I am used to MM farming so much that Tank or Brute farming is a snoozefest by comparison, I can only do it for so long before I get sleepy and do something else. Then come back to the alt at a later time.

You can level from 1 to 50 in two hours? Dare I ask how? I think my fastest time was 5 and a half hours or so, that was farming with 1 farmer and 1 alt in AE with 2x booster on.

Yea, but that's still comparing apples to oranges though. You are talking about 3 different accounts playing 3 different maps, 1 active and 2 afk farmers, all combining their net total gain. 3 separate teams basically. I am talking about 3 different accounts on the same map, one single team. And someone else was saying that someone could powerlevel someone from 1 to 50, and still make 1 billion inf in that timeframe. To put that into context, that would be like me comparing 3 different trials, adding up the net gain, and using that as a baseline. 3 maps vs 1 map isn't the same thing, as far as inf gain/hour is concerned.

Lol.. yep! Is it friday yet? So 2.22m inf/minute, lets see, thats - 122,247,590 inf/hour, 611,372,950 inf/5 hours, (with 3 active farmers) or 407,581,966 inf/5 hours with 2 farmers and power leveling 1 alt. Still not a billion in 5 hours! Not even Half that! 😆

Good catch, I didn't catch that one. Your numbers are correct, so thanks for that. PS - Bad math post!

With me it depends. If I use 2 characters to Power level Another alt, I will find a little more, but not much. I usually end a power level run with 200-250 million or so, not counting drops. You get lucky or unlucky when it comes to drops.

Agree. Personally I could care less that they are removing the EMP to merit conversion. Just the suggested numbers of what farmers make in the AE was so inaccurate I found it offensive. 1 billion in 5 hours? WHILE leveling an alt? I wish I made that. Heck I wish I made half that. In reality I make about 1/4th of that.

And I can just hear the argument now - "AE needs to be nerfed further because farmers can mail themselves things across shards. They can pool all their AFK farming efforts!" Would not surprise me in the least if that is the next talking point.

Agree. 3 active accounts allowed per shard. But as far as I know there is no way to transfer money across shards is there? I am not even sure if you can mail EMP merits from one shard to another on the same account. But ya, either way, what switchfade is insinuating is sheer lunacy. I am pretty sure that no one would agree with the idea that we need to balance the AE and economy around the assumption that farmers are multi-boxing 8 characters at a time running active scripts, which sure seems to be what they are suggesting.

Afk farming is not bannable. Scripts and key loggers? Yep. 100% Sure. Bannable. So is playing more than 3 accounts at a time. How? Because I spoke to a GM and they said that playing more than 3 accounts would be a war crime. So, just to clarify here, "you" are suggesting that we use the "extreme upper end" of not only what is possible to earn, but having to break 2 rules in order to do so, as the measurement in order to balance the AE gain around, that's what you are suggesting? That is like assuming everyone makes 10 million dollars per year, and then taxing them as such. Not only would your suggestion completely break the market, but it wouldn't make farming optional anymore, it would be required, for anyone who wanted to get a fully purpled character. And for the record, your "reputation" if you even have one, as well as your opinion at this point, matters to me about as much as a sack of leaky rat droppings. Because either you A.) Break the rules yourself. or B.) Completely made up stats on the fly, in which case you are a Liar. I suspect it is B. But either way, that makes your opinions on the matter about as reliable as Bigfoot or UFO sightings are in discussions about global market policy.

Now I know you are blowing hot air. First off, running scripts is bannable. So is running more than 3 accounts at a time. Are you insinuating that every farmer is doing this? And that is the lenghts one needs to go to in order to meet your figure of 1 billion during a power level? Show me then. So me the math and numbers. Prove to me that it is even possible. Here, I will even do it for you. Using your "totally real and not made up" scenario above, just to show you how ridiculous that it is. First off, going 1-50 in 5 hours is impossible without exp boosters. So that alt gets ZIP. But lets say its doing the maximum allowed, 2 boxing with 1 farmer and 1 alt. In order to get 1 billion in 5 hours, that is 200,000,000 an hour. Or 3,333,333 inf per minute, on one character, the two you are actively playing, which translates to 1,666,666/minute. But hold on, you have two people! So that's really 1/2rd of all your money, that you aren't really getting, due to the Booster in play. Which really means you need to earn money that you aren't even getting. See if you actually farmed and power leveled yourself, these are the things you would know. So here is the math for your make believe scenerio - 1 billion in 5 hours = 200,000,000 inf/hour 200,000,000 an hour = 3,333,333 inf a minute 3,333,333 x 1.5 (exp booster inf loss) = 5 million inf a minute, on ONE character. That is more than TWICE what I make, when clearing a map in 3 minutes. To simplify it for you, that means that a person would have to clear that same map I did, on one character, in HALF the time. 1 and a half minutes, or 90 seconds. The loading screens ALONE won't allow that to happen, much less the absurdity that you are insinuating. That is how I know everything you suggested is complete and utter BS, as would anyone who has actually power leveled themselves a few times.