Neiska

So when you say "system of investment and progression" you want to make things more difficult for everyone, so that there is an even wider gap between the haves and the have-nots? That only certain people get the purples and incarnates? I am not suggesting you are saying this, I am asking for elaboration. Because, nothing is stopping you from doing that yourself now. So why force it onto others, especially when it isn't even wanted?

You and me both. That's kind of how I see the nature of this argument - people gatekeeping. I suspect they want people to have to earn things like "back in the times of yore" where the majority of folks on a Hami Raid might have some 50 IOs and a few Uni's, or maybe a 2 pieces of the same purple set if they were wealthy. If it was like that now, I expect there would be a mass drop in player count.

Then I think the majority of people in the community are thankful you are not in charge. Especially the casual players.

@blue4333 Holy crap, those prices. Many of those are just for the recipies, the RECIPIES, not the IO themselves? 100 Mil for a LotG +recharge RECIPIE? And people want to go BACK to that? Those prices? I would bet a paycheck that if those were our prices on homecoming, people would make far fewer alts, causing a sharp drop in how active things are. Because I would bet being able to make fully slotted and geared alts is one of the strong things keeping people here. Now I am just boggled as for what the anti-AE crowd actually wants. A smaller population? The majority of people running around in +5 SO's? Because if there was no AE, and "those" were the prices, it might take a full YEAR to get a character fully leveled up, slotted with purples, and fully T4 incarnated. NOT a good thing in any measure, particularly with how the pace of games have changed since Live. I would bet the game designs like Everquest where it might take months if not years of real life time to fully progress a character won't be as attractive to the majority of gamers now.

Some of us might take that as a sign that how things were done on Live might not be as wonderful and glorious as others might remember or try to make others believe. 😆

"ThE dEvS.." "bUt ThE DeVs" "BuT MEH DEVS" Well guess what buttercup. The Dev's aren't here. The Developers of Live have about as much authority and say in how Homecoming is run, as much as a one armed blind sailor in Tawanna, which is to say absolutely zip, zero, nadda, nothing whatsoever. This is homecoming. This isn't live. This will never be live. I can appreciate and even empathize of what Live was. Truly. But Homecoming is a different ship, with a different staff, with different rules, and different policies. So please, stop with the holding aloft of the original Devs as if they were a holy grail that all should aspire to, because, they aren't. Moreover, I find it quite illuminating on how the people who hold aloft Live and "The Devs" are pretty silent on many other matters. Including but are not limited to - The Auction House being accessible from nearly anywhere. Costume piece changes. The addition of a new AT. The addition of new powersets. The changing of old powersets. Multiple changes in class mechanics. Changes in PVP. Changes in Enhancement Sets. And much more. And not so much as a peep about "THE DEVS" or "But back on Live!" The fact the "Dev puritans" are completely and pretty silent on such things tells me that they care more about what other people are doing, and how they play, than they truly do about staying "true" to live. So please, do everyone a favor and take off the nostalgia goggles. You liked Live. I get it. Many people did. But this isn't Live. It is no more. And even every single change was made to make Homecoming as much as it was in Live, it STILL wouldn't be Live. Food for thought.

This is kind of what I have been saying. The Market Players if we want to call them that completely lap anything that the AE farmers or the other mode players do, likely more than both of us put together. And not a peep or word about it. And they can do it on multiple characters at a time. Nothing is stopping someone from managing the separate auction houses of 10+ characters are more. I had an in-depth talk with a friend of mine to plays the market, and he said basically he can make what I make from an hour in farming in a minute if he wanted to. But no one talks about the invisible whales, and honestly I don't expect any change on that front.

I wouldn't bother with Moonsheep, Shardwarrior. I suspect he's just trolling at this point, as they only ask questions and never address counterpoints. That's not a discussion, that's just fishing for a reaction.

Fair, but I don't run trials. I run AE. Which is more or less the crux of the issue - not everyone uses AE, and not everyone runs trials either. Which more or less the entire nature of the argument. One side saying the other is invalid play or wrong or exploiting. It isn't the farmers saying nerf trials, it's the people who don't run AE's saying to nerf them. So I would say the burden of proof would be on them, since they are the ones pushing for change, or saying farming is "too efficient" without numbers to back it up. And even requesting data seems to provoke a reaction from some. I am not saying you specifically. I only bring it up to highlight that a "happy medium" is growing smaller and smaller. So, I guess it's true what they say, a good compromise leaves everyone unhappy.

That's precisely my point. AE balanced to "What?" Should it be balanced to Street Patrolling? PI farming? Trials? What activity should it be "equal" to? And without those numbers, its more or less a shot in the dark balance-wise. How much inf or experience/hour should people be capable of?

No, its more - Me -"Has anyone done data?" Flea - *Posts some data* Moon - "See! There's data." Me - "Okay. So where's the data about the other side? The nonfarming stuff?" Ghost - "Oh you want complete data? For a side-by-side comparison? Thats funny."

I made a post asking if people have done a comparison. Flea then responded with his numbers. Then you point out the fact he did so. So not sure what the point you are trying to make is aside from pointing out the obvious post he made. And we have yet to see what people get from running other activities such as trials and so on. So why highlight his reply to my original post?

Wow. @Bionic_Flea Did what I suggested, after I asked if anyone has actually done a comparison. You aren't the brightest spoon in the drawer, are you? Bless your heart.

No. Street sweeping should not give the same. My point is that people are just assuming things without doing the math or work to figure out where the figures actually are, which leads to assumptions. Honestly, if you include the time spent playing, as well as invested per character into consideration, I don't think the "wealth gap" is where people believe it is. As an example, some of the richest people I know are level 5's who play the AH monopoly game while they roleplay, and have done so for 2+ years now, without ever having stepped foot into either AE or an Itrial. What I "expect" is people to have actual data or references before making arguments for changes, especially when it's about an activity they don't do themselves. Because, since they don't actually do it themselves, then they wouldn't know the exact details of what they are talking about. It's much easier to go "They have more money than I do. Farming BAD" than do a side-by-side comparison.

Ok, then kindly show me a breakdown of inf gained doing different activities during the same amount of time that has been calculated by the community. Go on, I'll wait. Or, you know, keep making passive aggressive insinuations without actual data or proof. That works too.

Then do it? Instead of assuming every farmer is INF capped, exploiters, cheaters, mustache twirling villains set out to destroy the game, maybe sit down and do a legitimate side by side comparison free of bias and assumption? Or perhaps quit losing sleep over what other people choose to do in their own personal time perhaps? 😋

So its too much to ask for people to actually know something before having an opinion on it, or before discussing removing something? 😆

Finding and using the most efficient method to level or get money is not an "exploit," it's smart use of your playtime. It is not against any game rule to farm. That is like offering a multipurpose tool and then getting upset when people use it in a way you don't like. And you could apply that logic to multiple other activities. "Running only trials? That's exploiting them for incarnate materials." "Buying and flipping on the auction house for a profit? That's cheating! Someone has to actually use what they buy; they aren't allowed to profit!" "Repeating the same activates to get merits? It wasn't designed for that! Thats exploitation!" AE gives the map creator's control over what spawns - their attacks, their features, so forth. Using it, is not an "exploit," it's quite literally using it for what it was made to do. Now, if they made level 54 elite bosses with 1 hitpoint, then yes, that would be total exploiting. But making creating a map for whatever reason, and then running said map, is not "exploiting," it's playing the game. And, for the record, many of us DO use the AE to challenge ourselves. We experiment with builds. We go outside of assumed wisdom and experiment. Come up with brand new things or builds in a game over decades old. And there are some AE maps that are just as hard if not harder than open world content. I am genuinely curious as to what "built in exploits" in maps you are referring to. You don't want to farm, then fine. Go do story arcs to level. But you are deciding not to use a tool available to everyone, getting butthurt and crying about it, and calling everyone who uses it in a way you don't personally prescribe to as cheaters or exploiters, like you were the sole arbitrary authority on the matter, without even firsthand knowledge of what people actually are DOING in their missions in AE.

Oh for sure. Always open to tweak more. Largely my slotting was for Def and Resists, getting what other things I could pick up on the way, and using the odd slotting such as Channelgun, Injection, and Boxing to help make up the other numbers I was missing. But you are right and I could fine tune it further for certain. This is what I have so far and it's working fantastically.

Right, but I meant if we in the community have done such a thing, to the best of our ability with the knowledge and information we have available, and so on.

Asking earnestly here. But has anyone ever actually sat down and done an actual comparison as to what different activities give for rewards? I know that is a pretty big thing to try and compare, given the sheer number of variables. Time, activity, so on. Like, what 1 "average" farmer might make in an hour of "active" farming, what they might make "afk" farming, and what 1 person might make running ITFS or what have you in the same amount of time, or even what a full team might get? I mean, have people actually done such a thing, or is this all just people assuming here? I hasten to add that I am not suggesting that farming DOESNT make money, but my point is that I don't think it is as much as some people might think, or that "outside activities" are as far behind either. I also wonder if the time involved/required doing each activity is more of a hidden factor as well. If you spent an hour farming, what could you accomplish elsewhere in the same amount of time, and so on. And I don't mean just raw inf gained either. Take things like merits into account as well. The drops might have to be omitted because, well, they are random after all. So unless someone has a formula for that it might be better to ignore unless someone has a better idea. So a comparison such as - The average "active" farmer can make between X and Y in an hour. The average "afk" farmer can make between X and Y The average "solo" player can make X and Y The average "teamer" can make X and Y The merit "speed runner" could make X and Y etc... Just asking for an honest and unbiased comparison is all. If the big brains here can manage that, it might move the needle to a place where we can all agree is a good spot and be a good compromise for everyone? And to be honest, I am not sure if a comparison would be possible. That would take smarter heads than mine to really dive into. I am not even sure how much you might earn if you run nonstop trials/incarnate content/endgame stuff. I know some have rewards as well, such as an automatic purple the first time you do it or have your choice of rewards. But even those picks of rewards might be the faster option, as I have gone 5-6 days without seeing a purple recipe drop when "hardcore farming." When farming you really are at the mercy of RNG, and she might love you one day and hate you the next morning.

Hello fellow Arachnos, After a lot of tinkering and experimenting, I made a very well-balanced Crabber that I thought I would share. With Crabbies, it always seemed you had to pick and choose your priority. Either having decent pets, or good defenses yourself, or were very tight on END use. I always wanted to melee next to my pets, but that always seemed difficult before. Build Highlights - 1.) It is extremely durable, and self-sufficient, with both ranged attacks, some of the melee attacks, pets, and very good survivability. It hits the 45% melee defense, and is capped to Smashing, Lethal, Fire, and Cold resistances. With respectable numbers in the rest, the lowest being Psionic at 48%. Without any incarnates whatsoever. There may be a few slotting choices that strike people as odd, but I will go into those. This build is fully +4/8 capable. 2.) It has both Serum and Aid Self. Why Aid self? Because it has the END upgrade, meaning you can refill 25% of your END every 9 seconds or so. On my Crabbers it always seems to be hard on the END, and there is no other END tool available, and I dislike having to rely on Ageless to solve END problems. As slotted this build is easy on the END, but Aid Self will be available for a backup tool as well for emergencies and you are out of blue pills, and I hate having to rely on Ageless and Blue inspirations to make a build "flow" or be playable. I know Aid Self is rarely a power taken, but I feel on some ATs its a worthwhile choice. 3.) As presented, this build doesn't have any incarnates picked. This means there is a lot of room for choice there. People can take Agility to boost their recharge, or Musculature to increase their damage, and so on. 4.) The build has all the usual procs, specifically debuffing such as Fury of the Gladiator, Annihilation, and so on. I tried to fit Achillies in as well, but there wasn't room. But it has multiple ways to apply -DEF, -RES, Immobilize, and even Knockdown. Special note goes to Frenzy which often knocks things down frequently, which gives you just the time you need to use Aid Self to boost your END if you need it. 5.) It has some ranged attacks, as well as some melee attacks, some ranged, and a few single target attacks as well. Now for the downsides - 1.) The Pets and Serum are not Perma, but they are close. The spiderlings are down to 237 recharge with a 240 duration, but Call Reinforcements is only down to 304 with a 240 duration. They are not heavily slotted either, being just slotted for recharge and a chance to knockdown. They are fire and forget. But I don't consider this a great loss, because even if you focus on making pets as strong as possible, they get clobbered on max difficulty, (at least when soloing.) So, this build relies less on them, but they are available to help. 2.) Sadly, there is no Aim. It was that or super speed, but if people would rather have Aim rather than a movement power, they certainly can swap them. But doing so will cost you a bit of knockdown protection. Another option is to drop the Medicine Pool for Aim and a few other powers of your choice. But this build has a full rotation as it is and doesn't particularly benefit greatly from Aim. 3.) There is no Frag Grenade in this build. It was that or Venom Grenade, and Venom Grenade is better for the -resist, and you can slot it with knockdown as well. I usually take Frag Grenade with Crabbers, but there was no space for it in this build. So your attack rotation will be - Venom Grenade, Suppression, Arm Lash, Frenzy, and Shatter Armor. Arm Lash is very quick to refresh, with only 3.4 seconds, so you shouldn't need to use Channelgun, but it is there if needed for another ranged attack. There is also Web Grenade available as well to help stop runners. Here is a snip of its stats, without any incarnates - --------------------------------------------------------------- This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.1.2.5 https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn Click this DataLink to open the build! Level 49 Technology Arachnos Soldier Primary Power Set: Crab Spider Soldier Secondary Power Set: Crab Spider Training Power Pool: Fighting Power Pool: Medicine Power Pool: Speed Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery Villain Profile: Level 1: Channelgun -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(39) Level 1: Crab Spider Armor Upgrade -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(3), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(3), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(5), ImpArm-ResPsi(5), UnbGrd-Max HP%(7) Level 2: Wolf Spider Armor -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(37), StdPrt-ResKB(40) Level 4: Boxing -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(A), CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx(46) Level 6: Injection -- CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(A), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(7) Level 8: Suppression -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(9), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(9), Bmbdmt-Dam(11), Bmbdmt-Dam/Rech(11), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(17) Level 10: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def(25), Rct-Def/EndRdx(25), Rct-Def/Rchg(31), Rct-ResDam%(36) Level 12: Arm Lash -- SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprSpdBit-Dmg/Rchg(13), SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(15), FuroftheG-Acc/Dmg(17) Level 14: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(31), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(33), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Ags-Psi/Status(33), ImpArm-ResPsi(48) Level 16: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(19), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(21), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(21), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(45) Level 18: Venom Grenade -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(23), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), Ann-ResDeb%(36), SprSpdBit-Rchg/Global Toxic(48), Rgn-Knock%(49) Level 20: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A) Level 22: Tactical Training: Leadership -- AdjTrg-ToHit(A), AdjTrg-ToHit/Rchg(39), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(40), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx(40), AdjTrg-Rchg(43), AdjTrg-EndRdx/Rchg(47) Level 24: Fortification -- TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/Rchg(37), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(37), ImpArm-ResPsi(39), GldArm-3defTpProc(45), TtnCtn-ResDam(46) Level 26: Frenzy -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(27), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(29) Level 28: Serum -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(34), Prv-Heal/Rchg(34), Prv-Absorb%(36) Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31) Level 32: Aid Self -- IntRdx-I(A) Level 35: Summon Spiderlings -- RechRdx-I(A), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(49) Level 38: Web Envelope -- GrvAnc-Immob(A), GrvAnc-Immob/Rchg(43), GrvAnc-Acc/Immob/Rchg(46) Level 41: Shatter Armor -- Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg(A), Mk'Bit-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Mk'Bit-Dmg/Rchg(42), Mk'Bit-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43) Level 44: Call Reinforcements -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45) Level 47: Field Medic -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 49: Mental Training -- Run-I(A) Level 1: Conditioning | Hidden Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A) Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 1: Swift -- Run-I(A) Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A) Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(47) Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(19) Level 20: Speed Phase ------------ ------------ ----------------------------------------------------------- I hope this build/style might help some other players! I always wanted to be tough, self sufficient, and still have pets available, but not be entirely reliant on them. So if you want a tough nut to crack, that has ways to both heal itself and refill its own endurance, with lots of AoE and debuffs and still keeps the pets to help then you might enjoy this build.

100% this. Skill matters a ton as well, as well as game knowledge and practice. A bad player will make any build fall flat, and a really skilled player might be able to make an AT do things that can surprise people. Personally, I also consider someone's skill at builds a factor. You can't just copy/paste someone's build from here or elsewhere and expect the exact same results. I consider myself a skilled Mastermind and Crabber player, and a passable Tanker player. I have experimented on other ATs, but not as much as those three. Some AT's I have yet to try out or even play one fully in action. I generally favor Pet classes or Tanky/Durable classes in games/MMOs. But that's why I was musing over Controllers and Dominators too. They aren't really "pet" classes per say, but they do have them, which still counts in my book.

First off, thank you for the fair and what seems to be a good breakdown. But I would argue that trying to moderate farming for that specific reason, isn't a solution. Because people will always "farm", only the "how" will change. If AE was gone tomorrow, people would just figure out the next most economically expedient thing to do, and repeat that into oblivion, and we will be right back where we are now. People saying "nerf that new thing" until it eventually is. Then it repeats, and so on and so forth. If you want to put a dent in the amount of currency, it would be far better to have money sinks. I don't mean the Auction House either, because as you said that only moves money around, it doesn't "remove" it. And short of buying things on AH, there is very little else to do with money. Even the costume fees and things of that nature is a drop in the ocean. Live was before my time, but I do seem to remember reading somewhere, that base "upkeep" was a thing at one time. Now I doubt such a system would be embraced any more than any other suggestion. To be fair, that might make things worse and create new problems - such as people suddenly "having" to farm in order to pay for their giant sprawling bases, which could widen the gap between those with wealth and those without. And I can't claim the economic experience to offer any alternatives. And speaking as a farmer, personally the majority of my money doesn't come from turning EMPs into merits. It's mostly by selling the giant stacks of white recipes i get for 100k a piece to an NPC and selling the occasional rare salvage or purple recipe I get. It's certainly not the most financially gainful method I am sure, but as long as I can "break even" on the cost it takes to build up a character, vs what I make with it, I have no complaints. But I do worry about them "over-nerfing" farming, particularly with regards to Veteran exp/materials, because as a largely solo player, there is little other choice, short of being forced to jump into the horror show that is itrials and the like. If it comes to that, I would make fewer alts, and thus spend less money, and have even more excess wealth. And I doubt I would be the only one. The only reason why I keep making alts, is to try out new things because it isn't particularly laborious to do so. The moment it becomes more of a cost than a gain to me, as in enjoyment vs effort/cost, then I will stop. At that point I won't "need" money, or merits, or incarnate materials. And assuming the game continues to hold my interest, I would only continue to stockpile more that which I already have. Just my thoughts on it. I do see the problem and the concern is a legitimate one. But I see little effort at a compromise from the anti-farmers. It feels very much "my way or the high way" or being flat out insinuated farmers are bad/evil/whatever ill term they choose. Which to me, speaks volumes about them moreso than it does the farmers.

But that is suggesting that Player A didn't put time in as well. Or that there needs be only one way to advance a character. And where does it say that it's a contest? Player A has a character that can outperform player B? Well, so what? I would be more interested in how long that character has been played, more than "how." Character is over a year old? It "should" have fully slotted incarnated T4's, in my opinion, so long as they put in the time and work to do it. And no, I don't mean "ran itrials till they got them" as the only valid means.