Sir Myshkin

I already provided the data points from the most extreme case scenario possible for a Brute or Tanker to achieve*, and the metric of +4/x8 game play between the two was consistent with the out lined expectations of performance variable. I only quoted the Pylon single target specific data, but those data points came from dozens of runs each, and was not exclusive to just taking out pylons to measure sustained damage, I also took them through various assortments of content to test their viability and the impact of a one-for-one swap on the build. From a mitigation stand point, yes the Brute numerically had weaker performance, but it did not put the Brute in a position that made it dramatically inferior, and the build was not fine-tuned to try and shore up any variance that it could have achieved. The simplest meter that made Bio Armor the best tool to use was the fact that all I had to do to "compete better" for survival was to turn on Defensive instead of Offensive. The reason this mattered specifically in this case is that the value impact of that ability is far greater for the Brute because the Tanker is already at a point where the upswing in percentages are covering a smaller gap to cap, or overflowing defense wastefully. The other core (and rather significant) difference between the builds is the fact that the Tanker build is forced to take Jab, an incredibly under powered attack (and one that is purely a mule), and the Brute can take Dark Obliteration which gives them a significant boost in AoE potential that the Tanker build could not afford to take (maintaining every other slot choice). This is important in measuring which directive becomes more imperative: AoE or ST capacity, one must be sacrificed for the other on the Tanker build. *Max solo damage buff potential. I completely washed away the argument between scalars by demonstrating that the Brute can/does still out perform the Tanker more consistently even in an extreme scenario of incredible offensive buffing. 201.5% (constant) + 85% (Hybrid Core 10/75) + 80% (Gaus+BU) = 366.5% mass global damage buff peak. This is under the mass value of a Brute with 90% Fury without Hybrid or Gaus+BU (384.5%, Brute had a couple extra %'s from ATO variance). Realistic Comparative: If I consider the above circumstances and don't account for Hybrid nor Gaus+BU buffs, a Brute is able to utilize Foot Stomp once to deal enough damage to neutralize a minion and during that phase over an allowance of a six-second progression of time for Genetic Contamination to kill all of those minions (subsequently, 3/s of that period is the minions standing up for KD). At max aggro of 17, if we assume even just a rounded number of 10 minions, that instantly reduces immediate threat to the Brute by 59%. This is also attributing 20% resistance to the impact damage for time delivery, and noting that 50% of the expected "in combat" time has the minions knocked down. Comparing to a Tanker it will take a course of eight seconds to allow the same combination to take effect with one Foot Stomp and four ticks of Genetic Contamination to deal sufficient damage to kill a minion of 435 HP. As a course of this result, that means the Tanker will face a guaranteed second opportunity for each impacted minion to stand up for their KD state and attempt another attack on the Tanker which effectively doubles their potential damage intake compared to the Brute. In the condition of one-for-one matching builds, the factor that allows the Brute to take Dark Obliteration (non-forced Jab) also multiples the Brute's survival through means of offensive mitigation. If I were to try and option-in to Dark Obliteration on the Tanker, and utilize Jab, the single-target performance scale of the Tanker plummets quite considerably (Jab really is a terrible power). To better compete with a Brute on an AoE scale, Dark Obliteration would have to be taken and still invokes that the Tanker is now using two attacks to achieve what a Brute is doing with one. If I shift in Incarnate abilities and start stacking things like the Hybrid Assaults, and attributing good timing with Gaus+BU, then the measurement of value shifts from minion-clearing to lieutenant-clearing value. How quickly can the Lieuts be wiped out if the minions have become a casualty of mere presence. For a Lieutenant to be taken out following the previously mentioned damage out put it would take an additional 9 ticks plus Dark Obliteration to bring them down. Dark Oblit can be easily cast in the first portion of the assault before minions even get the chance for that last tick of Genetic to take effect. Another 9 ticks is a long time though (18/s), and with Foot Stomp recycling in about ~8/s, we've only waited an additional 2/s to apply this ability a second time creating a total investment for a Brute of 10.244/s to clear 10 Minions and 4-5 Lieutenants. The Tanker will have had to rely on Genetic to achieve comparable success putting them at a total invested time of 16/s. However, if the Tanker did sacrifice ST and grabbed Dark Obliteration, then they could achieve the same time frame (two activations of Foot Stomp and one Dark Oblit w/ Genetic fill-in). Once the rabble is out that only leaves the Bosses and at that point we've got about 1633 damage left to do. Considering the AoE is doing the lifting but has gaps in time we've had an opportunity to do a few attacks: KO Blow and Haymaker. The Brute is going to dish out around 700 points (heavily rounded) compared to the Tanker's 600 (again heavily rounded). The Brute is most capable of doubling up on the previous attacks, and tossing in Punch for the final hit, the Tanker will need at least a third rotation of KO Blow, or (in the Dark Oblit excluded option) given a time duration accrued, a couple of attached Punches to round out that damage. Another consideration that the Tanker would have greater success over the Brute in doing would be to drag the remaining Bosses into the next spawn and continue applying AoE cycles with splashed ST damage on Bosses to whittle them down collectively spawn after spawn. This is incidentally how I operate my Ice/Atomic Blaster, but he does it three spawns at a time... Metric Measurements Mitigation doesn't just get attributed to the performance of the armors alone, kill speed can, and does have a big trade off in how well an AT can survive. This is clearly evident in Stalkers and Scrappers being hard capped at 75% Resistances. Stick either one in the same condition as a Tanker and a Brute, and if their kill speed is good enough they'll be able to survive equivalently. A Brute has a greater cap than either of those to allow it competition with Tankers, but it retains damage and this is its trade off. Another thing I'm highlighting with the above is power selection choice, and incidentally the use of those powers (how, when) matter a great deal in evaluating performance. The biggest reason I suspect (as I am saying now, and others have said slash hinted at) others are not diving head-long into this analysis with you is that we already went through this in the Tanker Testing for--quite literally--over three months. You called it a "consensus" but many of us saw how things were washing out. Some even did the hard math on resistance values versus cap and measured out exactly what variance of impact a Brute's survival quantified compared to a Tankers based on random selection of stats from varying builds. The average result at the end was "90%". This was determined by a lot of players making different choices on set combination, power use, and developing final results. Example: The mission simulator Galaxy Brain referred to is (I believe) the same that was used when they tested SO performance on each Melee set to measure time to clear a mission over a ridiculous amount of runs. For many sets the choices players made in their attack patterns washed out pretty consistently, but areas where choice massively mattered in performance were with sets like Kinetic Melee. Cone, PBAoE, a T9 that absolutely sucks wind when it misses (and it did a lot at SO levels). Galaxy Brain went in to the mission and walked out over and over again with these elongated 7:00 such and such times and that just confused the heck out of me. The reasonable thing was to go in and test it too, which I did, and came out with times like 5:30, and it crazy-skewed the placement. It came down to the attack pattern choices. GB was choosing to include the T9 (which I excluded completely, after all the goal was to clear as fast as possible), and didn't aptly use the Cone because it caused wild KB. I approached it by going in with PBAoE, jump up and Cone down, whittle with T1/2/3, move to the next spawn and drag Boss/EB with me (no sense in waiting). We saw this same thing happen with Claws, slightly reversed. I absolutely abhor the animation for Eviscerate, so I didn't use it at all. Incidentally GB did, and came out with marginally better times, with a net average just that hair above (talking like 15-20/s total time average). That choice dynamically changed the goal line to be further than would be inherently possible by excluding the one power that added significantly to clear speed simply by being a short-range high-critical cone. At the end of it, while I encourage you to find the answers you seek in whatever means you want to tackle, this particular investment of time and energy is only going to produce a metric quantifiable by you in a vacuum state of your own choices. You are ... kind of in your own Twilight Zone right now where Brutes "don't make sense" and Tankers are "overpowered." This commitment to the cause would've been excellent to have had back during testing, but at this point you're unlikely to get many to join your efforts here since we've already been down this road. I looked at the last Tanker build you posted and I can already see that it excludes Eviscerate, but does exchange for Ball Lightning. Right now I can already tell you my approach would not be the same as yours as I would not include the Patron ability and instead turn my attention on cycling Follow Up between Eviscerate (Boss/EB), Spin, and Shockwave under the exclusive premise of "Clear that mission faster." Eviscerate does nearly a 100pts more damage in a cone over Focus, which is where it matters in this case. Would I use it personally in a normal circumstance? No, I already said I hate the animation, but it's a choice of purpose, and in this particular scenario it matters vastly on the outcome. For a Scrapper that ability is a critical mad-house and is going to give them such an aggressive edge it's ridiculous if I pair it behind a +Crit packed Spin on large spawns. The point stands that, under the premise of your attempt to set "clear times" as an established metric for your testing, I can already unbalance your margins by one power choice. For what it's worth, since it has been a point of contention about achieving specific levels of mitigation on a Super Reflex character, this is a Stalker build that is iCapped to all positions. It's built off the foundation of my KM/SR Scrapper that I used to tank iTrials with back on Retail (yup, I took Confront back then because it amused me to pull the red rings off a Tanker during BAF).

No? There may be 36 pages of it, but the Beta Tanker Update thread from Fall 2019 has the entirety of the discussion of those changes and it's really the best (only) place I could point you for further guidance on the decisions that were made.

Rubs eyes of red and itch after skimming 20 pages of content. Okay Bill. I was being lazy about digging it out, but I feel like I don't really have a choice and I had to sift through a lot of stuff to find the relevant posts. What I called my "Reverse Flash" Tanker vs. Brute Test. Pylon Submission where I included the consolidated time windows. Some other relevant stuff mixed into the Tanker Proc Monster thread. (this one's really a self-hunt, didn't really link out specific portions) Extracted from the Pylon Thread: I added into the quoted section some bold and italicized stuff. I want to comment on one of those data points, specifically the Brute "low" Hybrid: On time of 2:10. Data is Data, and all points were tracked, but that was not the "consistent" window, but an outlier time I dipped into, the verified times were closer together and the Brute's window was more 1:55-2:05, just as the Tanker has some up-tick (procs, variance in a miss, number of things) in the "Hybrid: Off" window that I left. Given that, if I leave the data points as entered, I have 96% Comparative Tanker to Brute in Single Target Damage (incidentally with SS, since Foot Stomp subs in fairly well and is the only AoE anyway, this is pretty flat for the set in either direction). However, if I account for the one-off variance of 2:10 in my window, my comparative is 89% Tanker to Brute. I want to touch one something here that was noted in the Beta Testing from September to January for these changes: In this particular test I am creating abnormal extremes in +Damage and Proc usage, but the Brute comparative still has additional ceiling! So even if I did take the "96%" as my total data point value here, it is not indicative of the actual variance still achievable between a Brute and a Tanker because the Brute's damage cap is notably higher (yes there is modifier variance, but the differential should still account for a 10%+ positive for the Brute if both ATs are truly capped). Things that cause variance experience are regulated in Fury, if you loose or otherwise can't maintain a sufficient level, re-entry into additional spawns will have impact. A Tanker is walking at its "full" potential comparatively, and thus a "YMMV" tag becomes inserted in there. The other variance comes in Aggro/Gauntlet effects on expanding "weaker" reaching AoE/Cones, there are small cases where certain powers will be more beneficial on a Tanker from a "total outreach" perspective, but the damage performance should still side with a Brute. Incidentally: 91.7%, and "Best Time" comparative is 90.5% Right on the Money, as it were.

Worthwhile consideration, but not always the case. I keep my damage window open and the only times I've ever been confident in saying "I will be damage capped" is on MSR's, and even then it's not a 100% thing (more like 60% of the time). Either way, valid point that someone can take into consideration. The bigger aspect is really more of a "self reliance" perspective, and/or solo perspective. If you're saying Single Target scenario is unreliable then I'd have to disagree strictly from practical experience alone. Most cases I've monitored and tested max stacks is more than doable, there have been very few cases where I've noticed drops of significance that weren't directly correlated to the activation of a longer animation power, but that is also focused on using Core for a singular purpose (one hard target). And like you mentioned with AV's, I think/agree an inherent fault of the Hybrid Assault is the idea of using it for significant moments, and less about "just keep it running." I know I am personally in that boat, but when I'm not doing Incarnate content the Hybrid feels like excessive overkill a lot of the time to me and thus I never use it. 😅 Using the Radial as a "constant on" option would be a lot less stressful to manage knowing "on is on." Unfortunately it doesn't change the course that (in the majority of regular generic play) we're unlikely to actually be significantly buffed to the point that Core isn't adding value, thus it tends to be a strong(er) option a lot more often in those reserve cases. Personally I find myself using two options anymore, an Assault for intended kills, and a Melee/Support for the team-spread effects for most all other play (esp considering one of them includes a +Dam component anyway). tl;dr - Yeah I totally get what you're saying, but I don't know many (and have the assumption that not many do) that use the Hybrid Assault outside of targeted purposes, and to an extent I kind of agree that Radial is probably the safer (won't say better) option for "always on" play if someone actually kept clicking it at refresh.

And as tends to be a typical follow-up to these questions, if you want the analysis of interactions in power sets across a spectrum of the AT's, see my signature.

Don't worry, I take full responsibility (even if they don't blame it on me) for proving why Rage is broken and needs nerfed back during the January-February Beta testing that was done looking for a potential fix. Also, nerf Rage. I mean it is quite obligatory of me now, I have to say it.

All it means is you get to skip Hasten because there' absolutely nothing in Electrical Affinity that otherwise truly benefits from insane recharge. For a Defender/Corruptor this is pretty straight forward, but for Controllers there's a few powers out there that crave some Global Recharge: Phantom Army, Carrion Creepers, Haunt, the AoE Holds, Mass Confusion. That's kind of it though, everything else can be achieved with reasonable amounts or just a casual 70-100% (that the Circuit makes even simpler). Having a Demon/EAff MM to speak from experience though, I barely remember to fire off the Circuit every 15/s as-is and it's not like you can really "auto fire" it with great amounts of success.

Ooh, no one ever talks about Battle Axe! I have the perfect build here somewhere... Rummages around in build folders... Yup, Battle Axe/Radiation Armor Mad King Scrapper! So much damage packed into such a tiny little axe!

Hard Disagree. Super Strength is the second strongest melee set in the game behind Titan Weapons, and that margin is very thin by contrast. That power comes exclusively from Rage, with minor points in ability to heavily leverage KO Blow and Foot Stomp. I'm not saying we should nerf Rage on a Scrapper. I'm saying Nerf Rage.

For the most part, yes. Specifically to Dark Miasma on Controller's, Fade is no longer impacted by Power Boost, however most (I think all) of the builds I posted still technically fell within the "effective Soft Cap" zone (as in Defense plus -ToHit together will give effectively the same result as having 45% Defense). Past that the rest is up to you! Any build I personally posted is capable of Solo play, but all of them are good for team use as well. I would just make sure you differentiate between "preliminary test" builds and "refined" builds. There are many preliminary builds that were just cramming effects for testing, you'll want the refined options for viable play.

The confusion you're facing is probably people talking about two different aspects of how that all interacts. When you click Power Boost it immediately begins its effect on all applicable powers you have at your disposal for 15/s of duration. For toggles this means you'll see a nominal increase in value that will eventually end with PB's duration. During that window of opportunity however, if you have a click-based ability that is boosted by the effects of PB, but that ability has a duration greater than PB's technical duration, then it will apply that increased value in its effect at activation, and that effect will remain static/in place for the entire duration of the click-power (in this case: Farsight). Click Power Boost, Power Boost grants your Defense granting abilities a boost in effectiveness. Click Farsight during Power Boost's duration, Farsight checks and sees that you have a +Defense granting bonus, Farsight uses this value and adjusts accordingly, granting everyone inside Farsight's effect radius the boosted stat. Farsight has X duration, and as the buff granted only checks its value at time of activation, that value stays in effect for all of Farsight's duration, even though Power Boosts' effect ends after 15/s.

This may sound a bit strange to do a duo with two of the exact same thing, but it does pose an interesting combination when there's two people dedicated to playing them together: Electric Affinity/Fire Blast/Dark Mastery Defenders. The goal is to get perma Soul Drain (specifically from Dark, shorter cooldown), run supportive dual Empowering and Energizing Circuits. Dual Galvanic Sentinel's will do some light work on average spawn endurance levels, and then dual Faraday Cages and dual Maneuvers (could grab dual Assaults too, but less important) with Tough/Weave. With a couple of set bonuses dual Faraday Cage will hard cap a lot of Resistances for both players and having dual Maneuvers with Weave will make it possible to pretty safely get to 24-32 Defense. They'll both be able to solo okay, but together they'll feed each other back and forth into a very aggressive duo.

Hold on, wait. Digs around in the proverbial Mid's build cupboard. I have one of these some where... Dumps a drawer out. Ah yes, here we go: Enough Melee and AoE defense that it can completely ignore the Rage crash during regular game play, and that extra level of defense ends up making it Incarnate Trial capable at 59% Defense (outside of the Rage Crash). This isn't really a preferred build that I would play myself, I'd rather much more go down the path of getting a couple more procs in the attacks because it improves viability of damage during the crashes (Procs aren't impacted by the -Damage debuff). I just happen to have this one from helping another person tweak a SD/SS, and the build happens to specifically target keeping enough Melee/AoE to ignore the Crash period for the most part.

In all fairness I don't see why we couldn't have two similar versions... Reflecting on it further it might be kind of interesting to have dual options, one Arachnos themed for those that don't mind or like the thematic utility of the pets, and then a non-specific one that does mostly the same thing but trades out the name of the Armor for something else and swaps out Toxic for maybe Psionic (mental fortitude). Transform the T5 into a damage AoE maybe? Not sure a generic enough ability could be developed that works across multiple themes... What about an anti-Vengeance? "Rally Cry" AoE grants a recovery buff on team, and target specific ally is given an anti-death trigger like Unrelenting with an initial heal over time and a 50% heal and resurrect if they fall. Flat 300/s recharge, 200/s duration like Victory Rush, but non variable buff 1.0 EPS. And thinking about the unlock concept, tie it to completion of the Ms. Liberty TF or the Recluse SF. After first completion you get a note from the contact, have a conversation that talks about your "qualities and strengths." If Lord Recluse is the contact, it'll talk about the "Arachnos" version of the ability, but you can tell him to stuff bricks if you choose, but either way both TF's unlock both variants of the pool.

Spitballing here, but how about a new "Patron" Pool for Lord Recluse. Requires unlocking Hybrid Incarnate slot and a unique mission arc, "Lord Recluse has acknowledged your strength... such and such, you've proven your worth to Arachnos, and your ability step above the rabble of Paragon City to become a high ranking officer under his command." Something thematic that proves we can go toe-to-toe with his inner circle and are above simply being a peon beneath them. Theme around Arachnos Soldiers T1 Overpower: -Res, Fear, Your presence alone is enough for an enemy to tremble in fear, weakened and unable to fight back. (Melee, ST, -15%) T2 Incarnate Threaded Arachnos Armor: +Def, smaller +Res both two S/L/Toxic T3 Strategist: Unresistable toggle AoE Enemy -ToHit (4%?), -Def. "Confidant in your abilities to react in any combat situation, your foresight and skills are hard for enemies to defend against making your actions swift, and their ability to respond difficult." Seeing this like a reverse Maneuvers. T4 Tactical Command: Tactics+Asault toggle in one, cannot be taken if Leadership pool is taken, 0.75 EPS base T5 grants a Bane Spider Soldier

I hadn't really considered going down to reduce effectiveness, but that could work while also giving Traps (on a Support level) a more aggressive use for Trip Mine. Given the offset it could/would provide even at a lowered rate, Ageless easily compensates, but there's also Power Sink, Conserve Power, and Victory Rush available to supplement/fix endurance as well, but a player would be intentionally forced to build to that necessity at that point. The question that comes up from there is whether the damage should be lowered proportionally to the time adjustment then? A small part of me says "just a bit" but... I'd really like to just see one strong component working will to put Traps into a truly "offensive" state that I don't personally feel it ever really existed in. I'd say that'd need some grounds keeping. ... Actually, I think I may have exactly what is needed here that fulfills both circumstances. Turn Trip Mine into a toggle. That allows for the slotting but also neuters the FF+Rech. Once every six seconds the player auto-drops a Trip Mine just as you've said and it takes 5/s to "arm" and set the mine, and place the cost as an unchangeable 1.0 EPS. The tech already exists to mimic this in Irradiated Ground as it does exactly this (drops a psuedo pet with a set duration every 5/s), we just need it to drop the Trip Mine pseudo pet. What about something like that? I kind of went off on a long side tangent about the restrictiveness of the Devices version and how it doesn't pan out nearly as well but, in realm of "objectively possible" is arguably a core benefit but is limited in what it actually brings comparatively to the table simply because of how damaging an additional 10/s of recharge is. Spoiler'd it out: So anyway, yeah, actually why don't we make it autofire? Turn it into a 20/s cooldown toggle? That results in effectively what you suggested but takes out the click, takes out the FF+Rech functionality and since the power doesn't interact with (nearly) any other procs anyway... that actually might be a pretty win-win? Hey no one's thrown any frying pans* so I think we're okay 🙂

I'll be fair with this statement that while yes, technically you could solo, Electric Affinity is most definitely not a solo (friendly) set so if you're really inclined to have that functionality I'd suggest rerolling your character now into either a MM or Controller to get you more bodies to work with. Past that, if it makes you feel any better about the idea, Galvanic Sentinel can survive a 1 on 1 encounter with a Monster class enemy (Peregrine Island) through just resistances, absorbs, and the occasional heal to top it off at 50. Actually, yes, I forgot about that issue. I don't remember seeing that get addressed/fixed/held-off at any point after release. Might still be an issue but I lack an Amp Up to double check.

It's Defense Debuff, not Defense. Amp Up directly impacts "secondary effect" in abilities, and the in-game data doesn't properly tell you that, but the power's description is accurate in saying "defense debuff" specifically. Essentially its an ability that's really nice to toss on a Controller or Dominator, or has interesting interactions with Blaster's who often carry a lot of abnormal attributes in their survival tool kits that they're unlikely to slot for over damage (like -Recov, or -ToHit). It's also an effective way to spice up the Sentinel, or add punch to MM and Controller pets that possess solid control effects like the Demon Prince or Umbra Beast. It's also the most skippable power in the entire set. wah wah waaaaah. I still find it interesting that a duo of Electric Affinity users would be a fiercely tough combination and give reason to using Amp Up on each other... ElecAff+Fire Blast+Dark, Perma Soul Drain, perma Amp Up, double assault and maneuvers and Empowering, Resistance cap to everything but Toxic, easily sustainable +200% damage... so close to perma Rain of Fire (x2) mobs won't know what to do with their lives...

Alright, hold up and take a minute to reflect on what you suggested: No delay. No Immobilize. No animation. Your suggestion, based on what I'm saying is currently capable with the ability, is to create a power that does this: Trip Mine: End Cost - 13, Recharge - 5/s, Grant Player 100% Global Recharge for 5/s, Does not root the player upon cast and has no animation time or delay to the player. To simplify: "Put this on auto for 100% global recharge indefinitely" No, that won't fly, that is why I brought it up. I wasn't saying I disagreed with your idea from a utility aspect, but the ability cannot retain its ability to slot a FF+Rech proc. No there is not a flaw in the proc, the power itself as it exists in the game follows all of the expected PPM regulations. It has a base 20/s cool down and a 5.148/s animation (arcana) with 4/s of that being interruptible, and if I choose not to enhance its recharge, and have a high enough source in the build to get it close to 7-8/s, the proc will have a high probability to fire off. It doesn't every time, no, but enough that I can assuredly stack 40 of the potential 50 maximum. This is something I disclosed months ago, nearly a year at this point in September of last. The reason why this is okay in the current design is because the player is rooted for that entire duration, and can be interrupted in the process of setting the mine. We are forced into a period of inactivity to take advantage of the ability. And as such, there is nothing of significant impact in the Traps power set that vastly improves from this mechanic other than casually executing in down time, or to help ramp up Acid Mortar or Poison Trap for another spawn, but in most cases the recharges on those abilities are already so significantly reduced that the additional 100% is only shaving seconds of time. There is no practical value that abusing this effect grants to any combination of a Traps user as it exists because of the restrictions it enforces on the player, and the risks it comes with. This is not an exploit as you wanted to call it, but is working as intended. In a best case scenario, the advantage of setting up a few traps like this allows a Traps user to set up a slightly more unique or amusing "Trap Cluster" (for lack of a better term), but the time cost to do so is incredibly large. Just 60/s of this process only shaves 6-8/s off a typical Acid Mortar slotting with already decent global recharge, and brings Poison Trap down into a proximity that a player could manage to get a second one out just in time to have 30/s of double-stacked Mortars. The entire effort requires the Traps user to constantly be spamming and rooted for Trip Mine. It is INCREDIBLY impractical in any scenario other than for fun, or solo play. Given all of that, I return to what your suggestion was, again: No delay. No Immobilize. No animation. If the interrupt and animation/rooting were removed, just flat out no rebuttal or correction, removed, then Trip Mine becomes an at-will constant-flex trigger for FF+Rech. Now at that point we'd drop to 20/s over 25.148 which will drop the probability enough that it'll reduce somewhere around a... 55-60% chance, still good, and oh yeah totally worth the constant free click. In such a state the power is a direct and dramatic abuse of the game mechanics, and thus a design flaw if allowed to pass in that condition. Regardless of what benefit might be gained or lacking in relation to Traps as a whole or any set it gets paired with, the core concept of such a change is against the mass majority of the game's function and creates the potential for a loop hole that could be abused specific to Traps in its performance, and have negative impact on the validity of any other change that gets implemented with it. That is what one would call an "exploit" if it managed to pass into active play unnoticed. How was my statement disingenuous in any form? I stated clearly: "I can already say that this won't happen if it keeps the current slotting capabilities it has; specifically Knockback and the ability to slot FF+Rech proc." Quite clear and to the point that such an alteration won't occur if the ability retains its access to the FF+Rech proc. It isn't a concern of "clever game mechanics" as you like to call it, it is a concern of an abusable trigger that would become available, and I called it out. Furthermore, it was "discovered" and openly posted on these forums that it was possible, and even back then my opinion on the use of it was the same "Not Worth It." The clear and straight forward intentions of those test discoveries were to find interactions like this one and better understand the dynamic of what procs were and could do for everyone. Next time please refrain from so aggressively jumping the Acid Mortar. 👍

Actually I wasn't really surprised by Blizzard, it was the fact that everything else, without question, was double hitting. I just don't remember seeing it that consistent on every single power, no matter what. Like... if I could share the video to show you, it it every single attack, every single time. I did a re-run with another character just now and watched through the log a bit more carefully, and it's there, scrolling through I wasn't seeing a missed double up unless the attack missed (obviously). So this is what Mid's shows, and I was under the impression that the current patching was corrected for Tanker, and if I misunderstood that (or it did not accurately get executed) than I apologize: Punch: 44.49 Haymaker: 72.96 KO Blow: 158.4 Foot Stomp: 63.17 Went in-game and validated the powers are what you have posted, so Mid's is still wrong. I did run another test with a Scrapper that has a combination of abilities more matching Super Strength's chain and including an outside blast. Since test was long-since wiped from Tanker testing, I'm not keen on spending the hour to rebuild a ground-up Tanker for a six minute test. Rad/DA/Soul Scrapper, three runs each T4 (Degen Radial, Ageless Core, Musculature Core), Hybrid Core and Assault swapped, both on: Chain of Radioactive Smash > Radiation Siphon > RSmash > Moonbeam > Devastating Blow Assault Core: 2:40 <--Missed a LOT with Devastating Blow 2:05 2:19 Assault Radial: 2:37 2:29 2:44 Granted this is a small sample set, but it's also one of the widest variances in recollection from worst to best time. Very well a case of Death Shroud lifting a lot of extra weight unexpectedly in a miss-heavy 2:40 with that toggle popping off 40+ damage ticks. A Scrapper (and a Stalker, realistically) is probably the best worst scenario of the offset of Radial and Core just for Criticals alone. I have one semi-incomplete Tanker I might go run a couple shots at just for the curiosity of it, he has a terrible attack chain so it'd be interesting to see what he can do either way.

I can already say that this won't happen if it keeps the current slotting capabilities it has; specifically Knockback and the ability to slot FF+Rech proc. It'd be far too easy to spam for absolutely no other reason than to proc-check for 100% bump every five seconds. And yes, I would absolutely do it. In fact I did do it, just to see, and as it currently resides in the game I can sit there and spam Trip Mine at 5/s intervals and end up with just a bit over 40 Trip Mines in one pile. Unfortunately (or I guess fortunately for the Devs) the psuedo pet that gets dropped doesn't carry over damage procs so my dreams of decking an AV for 15,000 damage isn't going to happen. C'est la vie.

So you want to build a Tanker? Can't you just play a Scrapper. You can smash anything, out live everything, you don't have to die at all! And you'll occasionally have some others To help you out, you don't have to ask them why... Go and build that Tanker Okay, bye. I couldn't resist, sorry, not sorry, it's been stuck in my head for like six hours.

I didn't get back with this right away as I ended up having to step away for dinner and such, but I scribbled some things down and recorded a couple of sessions with my Blaster (I had earnestly wanted to test his performance anyway). In the most amount of truth I wanted something to have been different and maybe think "Hey, after that Interface fix maybe there's something else going on with Doublehit?" Sadly, no, it fell right where I expected it to (15-20/s average disparity). I did come out of this with something interesting though: Everything Double Hit except Blizzard. I scrolled through my combat logs after a Pylon run looking for the notification of the proc and it was tagged on every single attack--Freeze Ray, Bitter Ice Blast, Negatron Slam, and eventually cycle in Ice Blast when my recharge dips below a certain threshold as Ageless wears off. For sake of understanding the mechanic, Ice Blast has 79% Recharge Enhancement, BIB is 59%, FRay is 0%, and NS is 46%. With Core active, for whatever reason that attributed to it, I didn't consistently stay at 5 stacks, it dropped to 4 often enough that as I fast forward through the video I can see it go up and down. Since -Res was in play with Achilles Heel and Reactive snapshotting consistent damage values wasn't something I could just grab without sampling, I just snagged a couple close to each other to get an idea to compare Core to Radial expectations. While saturated Negatron Slam I averaged 398, on Radial I was averaging 250+70. Tangent question, the base values you listed in your charts, where are those from? I was looking in Mid's and the Mid's values are a tad lower in most cases (5-8 pts, 10 in a couple) and a couple higher (AoD as one). I checked on an empty build. I haven't looked in-game to check any of that. Anyway, the Blaster, Ice/Atomic T4'd to the gills (Reactive Radial, Musculature Core, Judgement Pyre Radial, Ageless Core) Swapped between Core and Radial Assault Hybrid: Baseline: 2:45-3:00 if I get knocked around too much (No KB Protection, I use Melee Core for normal game play) Two runs with Assault Radial: 2:14 2:19 I started a third but Dropship Two runs with Assault Core: 1:57 2:06 Had about 2-3 KB's each run as I recall, didn't really count, easy to ignore, but they do slow a Blaster down. I gotta say it was a weird experience running up to the Pylon and watching it melt so aggressively that Ageless hadn't even popped yet.

Even if I counted it on a MM where Discharge is an actual ability and not baked into a Sentinel, that leaves two powers at 10/s interval averages, one at 15/s, and a heal every 4/s. That still leaves me enough time to attack 5-6 times depending on which attacks I might choose. In the case of Discharge I don't even use it personally because it takes at least two applications to actually matter, and at that point the spawn is pretty much toasted on most teams so there's not much point in it, thus I'm not down to Energizing, Rejuvenating, and Insulating. If Absorb is still stacked, then I'm not even hitting Rejuvenating. Again, to me, that's a LOT of idle time. And if I'm the Tank, then I honestly have even less to worry about because I'm diffusing damage across Bodyguard through my high (capped on most) Resistances, and my Demon's who break 60-75% at a minimum to nearly everything. Different experiences for each, but this is ... definitely not what I'd consider "busy." Edit: Don't get me wrong, I get why folks would feel this way compared to something like Force Fields or Sonic, but any set that involves a consistent heal method for mitigation is going to be more active by comparison. Empathy and Pain aren't much different in contrast to Electric when it comes to the immediate list of "regularly cast" abilities. What I don't agree on is the set being so demanding that one has to complete give up their other set because they don't have time for it.