SomeGuy

Re-read what I wrote. You're trying to argue with someone who has solo started the MSR with every melee primary in the game. I've solo-ed every TF in the game except the villain Reischman one. I've solo-ed BAF and duo-ed other i-trials. I've solo-ed both i-TFs in their current iteration (used to be you'd scale up to +3). I took a Spines/*REGEN* to 50 and realized the set just does not have enough firepower to do what I want out of a set. I can eek performance out of a lot. I can look at someone's build and tell if it's optimal or just slotting ADHD. I'm not saying your son isn't getting a lot out of the set. I am saying the set doesn't MEASURABLY perform as well as what you are trying to convey. Maybe you should take a look at my signature? There's a few reasons why Spines isn't on that spreadsheet a lot. Nor has it ever torn up the charts for MPL (minutes per level).

Not what I was trying to convey...but you have no idea how hilarious this is to me considering things. As for the "strongest sets" comment...this is incredibly LOL to me. One of my favorite sets to play is Dark Melee. One of the measurably worst sets to play. That set is a big reason I've leaned even HARDER in to "play whatever the eff you want, as long as you're having fun". *It's not a skill thing I was referring to. Your son may actually be a skilled player. I'm not debating that. I'm just stating the fact that Spines is measurably less then mid when compared to other sets. And yes, I have played Spines.

Opinions and this thread are two different things. Fun is subjective. If someone is having fun with measurably the worst performing set combo? Good, keep at it. Not like this game is hard. But if someone is asking for advice on something survivable? Anecdotes and feelings aren't solicited.

Toughness? Stone wins easily. Bio is a glass cannon if ran the way it's meant to be ran. Offense? No taunt aura so runners aren't a factor in this (and if something runs away from your PBAoE Aura you are doing zero DPS). They are actually both close to equal. Yeah. Stone Armour contributes as much to offense as much as Bio Armor (or close to). DPS *is* damage mitigation. Spines is horrible at DPS. ST and AOE. Is it better DPS then a Mind Controller? Yeah. Doesn't mean it does good DPS.

Ice Melee IS a good primary. It isn't known for it's crazy ST or AOE output, but both are solid as all get out and Ice Patch is really a fun ability. I personally don't rank it higher then something like Claws in terms of soft-CC (Claws has TWO ranged attacks that do soft CC, IM doesn't have any attacks that do soft-CC). IM/SD is a funny combo. Shield Charge? Knock down. Ice Patch? Knock down. Frozen Aura? Cold foot stomp. Ice patch melted but it's off cooldown. Lemme LOS this mob around this corner....IN TO ICE PATCH.

Good call. Stone doesn't have a Taunt aura, but Claws has two good ranged attacks that will also put a mob on it's butt. Have fun, runners! Stone adds really good ST and AOE DPS, along with it's survivablity. If not having a taunt aura isn't an issue, I'd highly consider Stone for a secondary.

*reads thread title* Yea. Me too. My first 50 was a Claws/Regen. Did Claws/X with every secondary after that. My name sake character is my Claws/Bio now. It's to fun a primary to me.

Normally, listing some of your 50s would be a flex. Not compared to my experience. I did read and comprehend what OP said about whittling down a mob. DM won't be able to do that if pushing the envelope. The murc DM/SD build you posted is very old and that has been completely outdone. Even within said combo. And anyone with a lot of experience knows, that list by Ston is a great starting point, but some of it is wildly inaccurate in-game. I am glad about the Ice Melee reminder. IM is legit AF and sounds like what the OP wants for sure. Ice Patch is fun and the set does solid ST and AOE.

I was afraid this combo was going to get brought up. No, nothing with Dark Melee as a primary will ever fit this bill. DM doesn't do enough damage. It just won't kill things before they are able to kill you. Full stop. And no, Touch of Fear is not enough either. *I have a DM/SD that is completely setted out. Fun combo, but definitely not as survivable as OP wants. Not sure what experience Lin has with Claws, but overall, Claws has a lot of soft-CC to help mitigate damage. Based on what OP said, Claws might just be the primary they are looking for. Claws exemps better then any other melee primary and has AMAZING ST and AOE DPS. Claws/ENA or Claws/Rad I am thinking? I personally have a set out Claws/Bio and frickin' LOVE IT. DPS *is* damage mitigation. If it's dead, it can't hit you. If something is susceptible to KB, between Focus and Shockwave, you can keep it on it's ass the entire time until it's dead. Big mob? Shockwave for group damage and everything on it's ass, spin for amazing AOE damage, repeat until entire mob dead. Listen to @Linea about this subject.

*reads title* Willpower is bad now? What? I personally prefer other sets, but WP definitely isn't bad.

Claws/Bio and TW/ENA are my two favorite scrappers. I get similar DPS performance with ST and AOE for both. Claws/Bio being MEASURABLY better AOE, not noticably. The TW/ENA is definitely more survivable, but that is because ENA is great in that regard, not a lot to do with the primary. TW got a much needed nerf a while back. It's still REALLY good (top tier).

OK. I was wondering if I was seeing what isn't there, so it's really really nice others have noticed this.

Here's my take on SS/ENA Brute: I always take Agility alpha on my Brutes. Makes it super simple to build. Although I was tempted to do Muscle on this one. I build pretty differently then most BTW. I want to get to, what I consider, "enough" survivability then chase killing things. Dead is the best CC. If someone is arguing that, then they are wrong. Dead things can't hurt you. Dead things can't kill you.

I frickin' love TW. I have a LOT of experience with the primary and have it on Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers. Basically whatever AT it's available on. I know TW absolutely can dog walk other ATs in terms of performance but it takes pretty acute practice with it and a smart build. TW needs a LOT of recharge. If you can do this, it's totally worth it. With that said... I don't know the numbers via proc % difference between non-momentum and momentum attacks. I just know this. Set can proc a lot, and being able to do a good rotation, kills thing really well. The set numerically performs VERY well. If you also like the look and feel....frick yeah. Anyways, one of my fav scrappers is my TW/ENA: Here's my TW/ELE Brute if you're curious also: As you can see, the scrapper is pretty procced out and the brute is not. @Maelwys is awesome.

So I also have a TW/ELE Brute, optimally built very much like the ELE/TW tanker. I did directly compare their ST and AOE kill speed. The Brute definitely does ST faster (about 33%) but when I was comparing their AOE, the tanker was actually faster AND I didn't have to worry about his survivability at all.

Yes, but when you kill something, it can't attack you. And that's even better mitigation.

NGL, the change to Staff has me curious what I can pull off with it. I am legit curious how much the changes effect things. Needless to say...I am expecting disappointment with that considering the recent regen buffs. I did give those a very serious go (I am very nostalgic about regen and want the set to be playable to my standards). You're ideas towards improving Staff are actually really good. The ideas about not just being a straight up damage buff is , i consider, needed. Its to easy to "fix" issues adjusting damage out/in (looking at brutes). Dark Melee is legit one of my favorite sets and I really do wish I never found out the hard data about it's performance. It's....not good. Not good at all. The set, honestly, really is mechanically perfect to me. It's a lot of fun. But by god...it's annoying as hell how much the set depends on Soul Drain. Soul Drain needs to be seriously tweaked. I know EXACTLY what I would do, said it on these forums more then a few times, but the set got changes to Touch of Fear instead (albeit much needed and loved the change to it). But it's funny to me the entire set could be easily made OK by some smart changes to only Soul Drain. You could leave the rest of the set entirely alone and wouldn't have to change setting/slotting AT ALL.

Those numbers definitely are. I've been playing this game for 21 years (this game is 21 years old). I was heavily involved in the original pylon thread, the secret server's pylon thread, and HC server's pylon thread. I know DPS. I know how to build. It very much is off if you actually play the set outside of maximizing pylon times. I've gotten times with my DB, Claws, and TW characters in the low 40s before. No outside buffs. Hybrid off. No pets. The RNG gods very much smiled on those runs. Those runs were instantly discarded. So to say the numbers there are indicative or what to really expect? With some sets? Sure. Others? God no. Not even close. That part very much worries me cause people that choose those sets based on that information are going to be in for a very rude awakening when they aren't able to even get close to that level of performance. Cause of the fact that: they don't have the skill level yet and the set(s) only perform that well in a bubble. All in all, Ice Melee is a very good set but it DOES NOT perform that well outside of a bubble. As for Kinetic Melee...it needs love. So does Dark Melee. And Staff.

Solo player? You will most likely want a taunt aura. Rad EnA Bio Shield Invincibility Ice Melee is a really good balance of mitigation via soft-CC (ice patch) and OK ST DPS. Speaking of Ice Patch, LOSing a mob by going around a corner, then laying down ice patch, just to watch the entire mob round the corner to all go Looney Tunes on their ass will never get old. Claws is a really REALLY good set with amazing ST/AOE DPS and soft-CC. It has really good DPS but it doesn't hit hard and doesn't have a lot of front loaded damage. It's very much a blender of a set. It's really good though. Dual Blades is another great choice (ignore the comments dissuading you from it because of the combo system). DB has mediocre AOE. It does have hard hitting attacks within it's other ones. Claws and Dual Blades are both top-tier sets. And neither is complicated. The best attack chain with DB completely ignores the combo system. Don't do regen.

I had a very strong suspicion this was going to get referenced. As someone who has played all of the melee types (granted savage and psi melee not extensively...but I do have experience with them) I know that there is a very small chance (I sure haven't found it) to make Ice Melee do ST DPS that well while having the build viable outside of pylon kills. The set can take a LOT of procs. I was actually mucking around with IM yesterday and able to do way faster than Dual Blades, albeit there is zero way I'd venture in to the real world with it like that. In terms of actual viability outside of pylons? Ice Melee is good ST DPS. Definitely not THAT good. It is a really fun set though. It's a really good example to me of a set done overall pretty darn well. If it performed that well everyone would roll Ice Melee considering all the other stuff it can do. Like, I have my own personal data collection info (which I update and share) of accumulated DPS times with many sets. Obviously things come down to the player and their ability, but when you've done this sort of thing as much as I have, and as long, I can literally just look at a class/combo and know WTF is going on when I see a time.

Uhhhh according to what? Like, IM isn't bad ST DPS but it isn't THAT good.

I was watching @Holoman on their Bots/Traps MM on Brainstorm and saw 5 of their runs. Mastermind Bots/Traps 0:58 This is an average. No clue if they were running Hybrid or not.

I definitely helped attribute to the target cap being implemented cause of my FA/IM tanker. I had IM THEN show me it was a sleeper of a set, so yeah....that warms my heart seeing it get more love. I can't remember if you were playing with me then.

Tanker RAD/SS 4:21 (Degen/Gloom/CP)