Dark Dove

In almost all circumstances for the way I play, yes. I almost never use long-snipe on any character though in any meaningful way; it seems to actually slow down my DPS if I take the time to wait for slow snipe to be active and then wait for the full animation time, when I could be instead just rotating through my attacks again during that time. This essentially means I put zero value on slow-snipe, so Venomous Gas or any other positive value ability will take priority, for me, barring very special circumstances. There are good reasons to not use Venomous Gas, but for me, this isn't one of them.

DDR is defense debuff resistance. It means when an enemy debuffs your defense, it will have less impact on you. It's a helpful stat vs. some of the more dangerous enemy types. +5 means using Enhancement Boosters (which you can buy from the AH, or find in Super Packs, or through I think merits). It allows you to increase the effectiveness of an enhancement by +1 level per booster used, up to +5. So a level 50 set enhancement with five boosters acts like a level 50+5. Alpha slots, when you get to higher tiers, ignore enhancement diversification values to some extent (read the powers themselves to see by how much per tier). This means you can push far beyond the normal damage % enhancement value than you would normally be able to with just enhancements, which makes it an attractive use of the Alpha slot, though the Alpha slot can be used for other purposes, damage is the most common use because you can take care of other issues such as defense and resistances with IO sets easily (case by case still, though, this isn't an always situation). The economy on Homecoming is very forgiving, don't count out expensive builds, they aren't actually very expensive with minor effort and time investment.

Luckily, you can adjust the difficulty settings for your missions to your tastes. Not challenged enough? Increase the number of players and/or enemy level as needed. Or, you can just not slot SO's and you'll get a similar experience.

No AT is useless in endgame. There are a few specific situations in very specific missions where a Tanker is particularly useful. I think what is closer to reality is, no AT is required in endgame for the most part. Every AT starts to function similarly with the addition of incarnate abilities and IO sets. Every AT can slot IO sets to get very high defenses, and every AT gets massive AoE damage and even mez protection. Tankers aren't special in this, all AT's start to look the same, all roles become muddy when everyone can do everything. Tankers are great fun, and even if every AT can build tough, Tankers are the toughest still. Have fun with your Inv/SS, that's the point after all, right? Don't worry about what someone thinks about the AT, just focus on what you like about it. Tankers are definitely not unwanted in endgame, they do smooth things over, just like other AT's.

You have all the character slots, play each of them and figure out which you like best. It may not be the answer you want, but it's the best answer. Corruptor works out strong in theory because of damage caps by AT (corruptor cap is higher) and additionally scourge, if damage is your goal. If I had to pick an optimal AT to play Kinetics on, it'd be Corruptor for me. Defender gets powers earlier and has better secondary debuff values if you intend to do something like sonic or dark for blasting, etc. Controller has access to controller primary powers if that's a playstyle you prefer. Mastermind has pets and stuff if you like that. These two seem like the weakest choices out of the gate.

Back in issue 3 (or maybe it was 4, can't recall) my bf at the time made an ill/kin controller so that I could play a Stone tanker. I remember herding what seemed like hundreds of ninjas in the chimera map, so many that the fx engine stopped working and they'd kinda jump into each other and disappear, although they were technically still there they just wouldn't render or something. The caltrops spam was funny. Simpler times, back then, the answer to the most unstoppable tanker. Though still needed a kin for efficiency, so maybe invuln was still the key back then. I hadn't played invuln at the time.

I've played since issue 3. Not that it actually matters, you're just trying to weirdly assert dominance or something again. You have no authority here. You are attacking me, repeatedly, and your thinly-veiled condescension oozes out of every sentence you write. You tell me to take a deep breath. You have no authority here. You be concerned with your breath, not mine. If you want to tell me I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong, but stop acting like you're coming from some place of authority. You're not. You can troll as hard as you want, it still doesn't make you any kind of authority. At all. As to this part, no, I never said that at all. You're projecting again. Stalkers weren't even a thing when stealth was introduced into the game, or when Dark Armor was. I don't care about stalkers. I'm talking about tankers. I believe they ported Dark Armor purposefully, all of the powers in it included in that. Stealth is a part of tankers the same way healing is, or any other minor effect repurposed into an incentive to play a powerset. Anything else you're talking about isn't what I'm talking about.

Again, no evidence of that, you're projecting. You're just a player, like me, you have no additional insights into the dev teams on live or the direction of tanking in general. Things put in the game by the live team are more likely to be part of the plan than not. Please don't tell me what to get out of my head, I'm not your child, you have no authority here, you're just another player like me. You be concerned about what's in your head, not mine.

Seems like something that's already covered somewhere else. I'm pretty happy with mez protection as it is, there seem like a lot of inroads to protection already, and everyone can get mez protection via incarnates eventually. I don't even think any tanker sets get mez protection at level 1 do they? You can only get it through P2W vendors that early.

Still no reason to believe it was an action they took with little thought or as an afterthought. That seems like something you're projecting on it. I see no evidence of that, and your line of thought could be applied to literally any subject in the implemented game, if you disagree with any implementation.

I also didn't say you said it was intentional or that it was a mistake. Huh? This is what I disagree with. See above.

That seems like a bold assumption. They were serving a playerbase that was their paycheck. I don't think they did anything with 'little thought'. Just like the development team here, they're particularly careful with the things they enact (or take away). I think they deserve a little more credit. The semantics are so muddy now that it doesn't really matter. I'll repeat the thank you for the conversation, I feel like we've hit an impasse. Now let's see if the conversation drops, or if some more people argue about it, I don't really have anything left to offer.

I can't either. Your way of tanking is the right way of tanking. I'm saying this directly, without any reservation. Can you say the same about mine? (EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm speaking in general here. Not you, not me. No personal direction here. But rather, tanks who use stealth and tanks who don't. That's what these two lines are about.) I think that's where the heat in this conversation comes from. The original devs thought that stealth had a purpose for tankers, they included it in the Dark Armor set when they proliferated it to tankers (I think in issue 13?) I could link it on paragon wiki or something that stealth was given to tankers, but we'll just agree I hope, that it was, and that they had a reason for it. You can refute that of course, or say that it doesn't matter now, or that tankers should never have had stealth added, but the fact of the matter is that it was added to tankers, by the creative force who made the game, and has been used ever since. This game isn't other games. Roles are different here, and the devs understood that.

I'm fine with the statement "This is a different playstyle" and I'll always accept that. That's my entire statement bundled up succinctly. That's the truth of the matter. If that's what you actually mean to say, I'm 100% behind you on it. I think we're even on the wrong page with "different way to play" because it isn't actually a different way to play for most; tankers with stealth act almost exactly the same as those without, they just have additional abilities to handle situations that don't require combat. We're probably in reality on the same page, just different paragraphs. I'll never be fine with (paraphrasing) "This isn't how you tank" or "This isn't good on Tankers" or "Tankers don't stealth" or any other amalgamation of that kind of sentiment, and I don't think it's out of line to voice that opinion. I've dialed back any rhetoric surrounding it as best I can, but I'm only a marginally self-aware Karen, it isn't always easy for me to do that. To me, any statements like those I listed are specifically not saying this is "a different way to play"; they are specifically saying "this is the wrong way to play". To me, that's not something I can agree with and I can't let go without at least offering the other side. We're absolutely good. It's very good that we're all still here sharing our views. I hope it continues, albeit on another topic that's less... I'll call it lively.

I have never encountered a time like this, and like most of you, I've played this game a lot. I have also never seen a tank who is running Cloak of Darkness cause any problems in any team, ever. Dark Armor tankers are not that rare either. Only in a broad meta sense though. In practice these statements are essentially meaningless. Whatever perceived issues in these assessments just never happen in the game. Are all of these points coming from people who play Tankers with stealth and have had problems? Or are they coming from people who are only theorizing that an issue may arise? The tone of many anti-stealth posts are insults and insinuations, regardless of other content. That's why people are reading beyond any actual meanings. That's not actually on anyone but the aggressor. These forums are becoming increasingly unfriendly and it isn't like the population is going to explode again any time soon. We should cultivate the members of the forum and have more consideration, otherwise we'll just end up bickering with the same circle of people with the same ideas over and over (and their alt accounts of course)

Thanks. I have been aggressively pro-stealth in this topic and it seems to have ruffled some feathers, which has rattled me, I've made some apologies in private messages because I was out of line at least a few times. I don't think the basics of my argument are incorrect, but I do think my approach has been too heavy handed. On that note, sorry @Infinitum particularly for how I've treated you, you're expressing your thoughts and I've been stomping all over them, sometimes unfairly so. I play very similarly to how you describe, nihilii. I'm an aggressive tanker that jumps from spawn to spawn as soon as things are under control to keep my team moving at a brisk pace. This is the playstyle I encourage for today's version of city of heroes. Absorb alpha strike, manage dangerous targets until the team is settled on the spawn, move to the next spawn before the remaining enemies from the previous spawn are defeated so that you can set up the new spawn for the team's arrival. Stealth isn't the reason you run stealth as a tanker, you run it for the other benefits. The stealth aspect is for noncombat purposes, I'm not sure where the lines got crossed and people think that stealth is for avoiding aggro during fights as a tanker with stealth; you use the stealth when you aren't fighting, not when you are, you just keep it running for the defense, immob protect, +perception etc. It doesn't actually stop you from tanking to full effect. Stealth is for finishing missions quickly and skipping objective barriers, that's it. It's good. Skipping to objectives can be the most efficient way to complete things, and that goes for all levels of content, I'm not just addressing high-octane extreme build speedruns in incarnate content, which makes up the smallest part of the game. I have a lot of faith in the team that runs the servers and creates the content and keeps things moving on Homecoming. When it comes to EA tankers (if that happens, hope it does) and their choices I'll be happy with whatever they decide, stealth or not, because their reasoning will show in the gameplay rather than theory. I can talk about how useful stealth is a lot apparently, but if it makes more sense to them to get rid of it, then I'll still probably play EA and I will enjoy it. My goal here was primarily to compare Dark Armor's stealth component to Energy Aura's, and show that it is something that can be used to good effect even on an AT like tankers, and is actively being used by the community that way. It isn't a throwaway component, and I hope it is at least considered in the Brute to Tanker translation. @Arisara won't even refer to me by name and keeps calling me the stealth tank fella which is inaccurate in so many ways that it's condescending at best, so I guess I've done all the damage I can do here. Thanks for all of the insights everyone! It's at least been a revealing conversation.

Sorry, what word is the right word, I'll use it instead of against and edit it out right now, not trying to put any words in your mouth. Do you recommend leaving teams where Tankers are running cloak of darkness?

Every dark armor tanker runs Cloak of Darkness, or at least most do for the other benefits it provides (Immob and very good defense, and of course stealth). So you can generally, if you prefer, comfortably leave any team where there is a dark armor tanker running all of their toggles. You'll even want to leave @Infinitum teams when they are running a dark tank, because they run stealth too, even though they don't utilize the stealth as a tanker ability.

Don't forget Dark Obliteration if you can fit it in, it's a great AoE.

Yep, I agree, sorry OP, all of this EA stuff should be in suggestions and feedback. EA isn't a Tanker set to choose from right now so it's irrelevant. Hope you find or found something you enjoy playing, OP! Most tankers are unstoppable if you build them right which is easy, and play them right which is something you'll pick up on.

Alright, nice discussion, thanks! You do you, tanker!

Finally, a rational point that is on topic. I don't disagree with this assessment, except in the matter of needing to give it up to gain EA for Tankers. The stealth does nothing to make the tanker worse, and since by your judgement, it does nothing to make a tanker better, it cannot be the crux of balance necessary to make EA accessible to Tankers, as it has no value apparently, so where is the purpose in giving it up?

Roles don't define every power in every powerset. There are reasons outside of role to include different effects and incentives.

But the conversation isn't about what a tanker's role is. We see you.

There is a first for everything, but I don't even think it matters what you think the role of a tanker is. This isn't a role-related issue. Sometimes tankers are solo. Sometimes tankers are teamed with all other tankers. There are a lot of times when roles lose meaning in this game. This isn't about roles. It's about stealth being a reasonable addition to any AT, including tankers. Every power doesn't have to further a role in a set, some can be luxuries, some can be for fun. I feel like we've tread this ground before but I guess we'll go there again. Is stealth also not in the Blaster role? What about controller role? Kheldian? Brute? Scrapper? It doesn't matter, they can all get stealth and use it beneficially. There are many ways to stack stealth radius as well, so that issue is easily solved. And you can also build your tanker to be defensively difficult to hit, and still use stealth when that isn't necessary. Both options can be used at the same time. YOU CAN BE RIGHT TOO! I can agree with you! Imagine this, I'm the tough tanky tanker haha! I'm also the stealthy stealth tanker that can click that glowy without a streakbreaker hit from the mob that followed me in when I don't use stealth, because I used stealth instead, and now my team that doesn't want to clear the map can take a sigh of relief and move on to the next mission. Saved the day and we're both right, I could have tried to click that glowy with a mob of enemies shooting at me, but I didn't have to, I saved time because that streakbreaker never interrupted me this time around! Next time though, when I stealth in and click the glowy, oh no! The mob saw me! they're shooting me! But I'm also a tanky tough tanker, and I can dodge almost every hit so eventually, even with the odd streakbreaker, I can click that glowy and save the day again! I'm not saying you can't play your way and be correct. I'm saying both ways are correct. You're saying my way isn't correct. The only things I said you were wrong about, if you read them, were your topics of conversation, the angles you are trying to push, and specifically your stuff about stealth radius that isn't what I'm arguing, I concede that stealth radius is a thing that is a game mechanic, I've conceded it before, get over it please and address the rest of the argument, the fact that stealth radius exists does not change the fact that stealth is a useful tool to have that can increase your efficiency, regardless of AT or role. Again, I conceded stealth radius is a thing, and asserted that it isn't relevant. Yes you have hard facts to back up that stealth radius is a thing. We all know! This isn't any gotcha topic, we know. It doesn't further the conversation though, it just states what we all know. Just for the record, I concede stealth radius is a thing! You can be seen! GASP! Now, back to our regularly scheduled bickering.