marcussmythe

On the other, other hand - and Im wandering off topic, but bear with me... Given that, at a mere SO level, with no tough/maneuvers/yadda, much less set bonuses lnvuln is still probably ‘face tank near anything’ tough due to the layering of def and res and dull pain... What does it look like if we just chase utility and damage with our IOs, Sets, Pools, etc? Sure, it wont be 90% resist/45% Defense all, but can we leverage the headroom given us by that phenomenal defensive overperformance to make headroom on other goals? Are there Stupid Games with Stupid Prizes to be played and won by interleaving Unstoppable and Barrier so we accept some risk/micro to still get just-silly defense while still pushing offense out the door? Hmm. *goes to fiddle in mids*

To be fair, the OP was more concerned with what keeps Invuln interesting in a world with IOs and Incarnates. Sure, it may put up bigger ‘Do Not Die’ numbers, but everything past ‘it cant kill me’ is just fluff - and IOs and Incarnates can take -scrappers- to ‘solo ITrial’ resilience. So having a tank set thats even harder to kill than other tank sets, but with little utility or offense, in a world where tank power-sets that have such offense or utility can also be very easily made to survive anything is hard to justify. Which has at least triggered an interesting thread on the side about T9s - and my point here would be ‘if IOs and Incarnates can elevate less resilient ATs and Powersets to ‘doesnt die’, then perhaps allowing the Invuln T9 to trade off some of its resilience for offense would be interesting. In the form of +Dam or -Res or -Regen or whatever.

Depends on the power granted and the cost paid, and of course the power granted would not scale to infinity (though the cost might!) It would be interesting to go set by set looking at set themes and needs. Some sets have offense, some lack it. Ditto resist. Ditto defense. Ditto utility. It would be interesting to find thematic ways for a set to temporarily gain that which it lacks (at some cost). Shield probably doesnt need more offense, and buffs the team to boot- but how about resistance? Any status holes? Similarly, does SR really need more DEF? Is there some form of utility we can give? Maybe a really crazy recharge buff? Spitballing here.

What I wanted to say, but better said than I could manage. Fantastic idea.

Given that regen is a one trick pony, it should absolutely retain that trick.

I'm down for that. I just think the devs may be more willing to give us gimmicks that RESULT in being the premier single target set, rather than giving us raw numbers that get us there.

Do you find you miss often at endgame without Invuln's scaling to-hit buff? I do not find I do. I don't expect people to agree with me, though I'll admit the vehemence of the 'no really ITS FINE REALLY' response is a bit surprising. I suppose Ill just have to learn to love Rad and Bio and suppress the SFX. 🙂

Multiple 50s Invulns on multiple ATs, pre and post IO, live and current. Similar with Bio (current only). Ive kicked around Dark, Rad, and Shield at cap, but only on a test environment, not played one up.

Im just trying to find reasons to play Invuln when Rad, Dark, Shield, and Bio are all standing around being notably more attractive, in that they offer offense, utility, strong healing, or some combination of the above - while being equally ‘too tough to kill’ in an IO world. But reasonable minds can differ.

Valid, but at the same time, what exactly does 'Energy Not Otherwise Specified' do to a target? 🙂 In the alternate, a long duration, small but stacking resist debuff would get there - here I am talking each hit leaving a small debuff with a duration in minutes or tens of minutes, such that over an extended fight, the target would take more and more and more damage - but by here I mean 'extended' in the form of 'multiple minutes' - IE, not going to threaten the pylon timers or the AOE herders, just able to trade licks with Lusca without having to throw poison daggers. 🙂

1.) Invulnerability is an Issue 0 release set that has received little positive (and some negative) attention since release. It focuses purely on survival, and does so with a large number of individually weak powers, consuming a lot of powers and slots for its final effect which is limited to Resist and Defense. And even at this, it contains a very large 'hole' for psionic damage, as well as significant 'holes' for energy/negative energy/fire/cold. These can be patched with IOs, but a set that has only survival to show for itself should not be patching its survival with IOs. 2.) The Invulnerability Tier 9 power, its ultimate defensive capstone, is widely mocked and derided as a suicide button. It provides survival that the set does not need, at the price of a high chance of death when the crash takes it down. This in a set with essentially no utility or offense. 3.) Since its release, we have seen a large number of newer defensive sets released. These usually contain damage mechanisms, endurance mechanisms, healing mechanisms, CC mechanisms, AOE Damage or all of the above, as well as providing their defensive qualities through fewer powers and slots. Argument: Based on the above, Invulnerability needs to be less power/slot hungry (though not radically so), and also needs to provide some utility or offense boost if it is to continue to have purpose in an environment that contains Bio Armor, Shield, Radiation, and similar powersets - all of which offer solid survival, along with some mix of sustainability, aoe, damage, or all of the above. Suggested Changes: 1.) Proliferate Sentinel Invulnerability Changes to other ATs a.) The combination of resist elements and resist energies into environmental resistance increases the appeal of these two highly mediocre and space-filling powers. b.) This combination creates space in the build for other powers, and preserves slots and powers for better uses than yet another small % passive. c.) The inclusion of Durability for other ATs provides a small bonus to effective endurance and to toxic resistance. The HP bonus is less notable once perma-dull pain is reached, but still has value. 2.) Increase the value of Environmental Resistance and Unyeilding from 10% to 15% on Tanks (proportional changes to other classes). a.) A base 30% resist between the two would still leave Invuln relatively poor in those resistances (by comparison to pure resist sets), but without a gaping hole. b.) Consider patching the Psi Damage Hole. It serves little purpose in modern play other than to make an otherwise unexceptional set have its own version of Quantums built into content. 3.) Rework Unstoppable. a.) A major change is required here. Even if its effect is reduced and crash removed, it still offers only more survival - which is all the set offers to begin with. i.) Option 1: Make it a toggle providing a scaling buff coupled with a scaling penalty, that also grants resist to slow and -rchg. 'Unstoppable'. Once deactivated, the toggle would have a significant cooldown. A.) Possible Scaling Penalties include scaling -DEF, -END, -REC, -REG, etc. Thematically, a penalty to DEF and/or HP Regen would fit. B.) Possible Scaling Buffs include scaling +DAM (the obvious one), or possibly scaling -RES or -REGEN applied to each attack (to represent the Unstoppable character 'breaking down' the opponent. C.) The general concept is to allow the character to trade off survival for offense in a risk/reward manner, as both buff and penalty would climb. ii.) Option 2: An AOE Attack, Damage Buff, or Debuff (similar to those provided by Shield) might fit here as well. Less interesting, but easier to implement. I am not here stating that Invulnerability is broken or useless - as it is not. It is just inefficient, clunky, boring, and of little value in the modern play environment, which is a sad state for a power-set that represents many of the most classic super-heroes.

If we are interested in EM as a single target set (and we are), and given that the ultimate example of single target demand is AVs and GMs - How would we feel about a significant -Regen debuff as an EM secondary effect? Probably best to make the debuff relatively small per hit, but long duration and stacking, such that after a minute of focusing on one target, you can assume even a GM or a +4 AV is floored? Might give a niche that wouldnt break PvP...

Implementing the Energy Assault changes, and reverting the EM animation, would be a good start before we 'look around and see where we are'. Cottage-Rule EM probably reverts it to the best single target damage melee set, at the expense of being mediocre at AOE. The balance point of 'best at something and still okay at something else' is paid for here by the self damage of ET and the fact that disorient is a poor secondary effect. Updating the AOE could probably happen by making stun a PBAOE with a Moderate damage component (and a glowy foot stomp or ground punch animation, cause fun animations are fun)

This is really impressive work, and makes me consider taking an offenisve, proc-monster build out on my old Invuln/EM Tank. Id say I'm worried about the loss of resilience in the name of procmonstering, but I suppose that is why you have more than one build - a procmonster solo content build (and I bet even a 'procmonster' tank is going to sleep through +4/x8), and a 'classic tank' for those times you want to grunt at Lord Recluse. Heres a first bash, based on your build skeletons posted (thank you!), trying to use spare slots to patch up E/NE and Psi as best possible. Stun and Total Focus are mostly resist mules, etc. (Edited to clean up datachunk spam) Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7 https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer Click this DataLink to open the build! H E R O I 😄 Level 50 Science Tanker Primary Power Set: Invulnerability Secondary Power Set: Energy Melee Power Pool: Leadership Power Pool: Speed Power Pool: Flight Power Pool: Medicine Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery Hero Profile: Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(3) Level 1: Barrage -- SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(A), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(3), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Mk'Bit-Dam%(7), PrfZng-Dam%(7) Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- Ags-ResDam(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(9), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(11), Ags-Psi/Status(13), Ags-EndRdx/Rchg(50) Level 4: Dull Pain -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(15), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(15), Prv-Heal/Rchg(17), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(17), Prv-Absorb%(19) Level 6: Resist Elements -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(19), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(21) Level 8: Unyielding -- HO:Ribo(A), HO:Ribo(21) Level 10: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def(23), RedFrt-EndRdx(23), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(25), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(25), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(27) Level 12: Resist Energies -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(27), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(29) Level 14: Tactics -- AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(29) Level 16: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31) Level 18: Invincibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def(31), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(31), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(33), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(33) Level 20: Energy Punch -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Mk'Bit-Dam%(34), GldStr-%Dam(34), Hct-Dam%(34), PrfZng-Dam%(36) Level 22: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(50) Level 24: Bone Smasher -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(36), TchofDth-Dam%(36), Mk'Bit-Dam%(37), GldStr-%Dam(37), PrfZng-Dam%(37) Level 26: Tough Hide -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-ResDam%(39), LucoftheG-Def(50) Level 28: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%(A) Level 30: Whirling Hands -- ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg(A), ScrDrv-Dam%(39), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(39), PrfZng-Dam%(40), Obl-%Dam(40), Arm-Dam%(40) Level 32: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), GssSynFr--Build%(42) Level 35: Energy Transfer -- CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx(A), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(42), TchofDth-Dam%(42), Mk'Bit-Dam%(43), GldStr-%Dam(43), PrfZng-Dam%(43) Level 38: Char -- Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(45), GldJvl-Dam%(45), Apc-Dam%(45), UnbCns-Dam%(46), GldNet-Dam%(46) Level 41: Stun -- SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48) Level 44: Total Focus -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(48) Level 47: Fly -- Flight-I(A) Level 49: Aid Other -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A) Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Gauntlet Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A) Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A) Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 4: Ninja Run Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A) Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(11) Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A) Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(13) Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon ------------

As EM has no -meaningful- secondary effects, and a worse damage type, she should probably be notably better single target than fire, with slightly worse AOE. Not balancing around TW, because its such an outlier

My old main on live was Invuln/EM, Kenlon. I may steal your build and use as a basis for making her live again.

My experience is that endgame survival comes from shaking off massive spikes that get through DEF, and avoiding Debuffs. Bio is phenomenal at most things, but it gets a lot of its survival from healing (which does not help against spikes) and has no Def Debuff Resist (which means that no matter what your DEF, it will get ripped off constantly - leasing to cascade failure across the whole character). Bio is a great set, and great fun. But in terms of PURE SURVIVAL (which is why your playing a tank, I assume), it is not the best choice.

In all fairness, Id say they -removed- EM as a Boss Killer Machine - its not that anymore. Pylon's are a data point, not the whole thing, and the EM Nerf was emblematic of that era of COH.. Nerf anything into the ground (except Rad, Fire, and Illusion based things, because... IDK why? But Melee Must Die was definitely the order of the day). Youll note that the Developers Who Were Bad At Their Jobs spent the years after flattening EM into the ground inventing ATs that were in large part Tank Resistances on Scrapper Damage (and thus this thread), Scrappers Only Better (Stalkers), and happily churning out powersets that make even old, pre-nerf Energy Melee look trivial in its single DPS, while also rocking the AOE, and also not killing yourself. Developers were, when it comes to anything like balance of... questionable competence and vision through the entire live run of CoH, and CoH is awesome in the ways it is awesome not because they were good, but because they were -so bad- they screwed up and left fun in their game. Hopefully the New Crew will do better - and seeing whats gone on with snipes, blaster buffs more generally, etc., I am hopeful, but as long as Tanks, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers are all stuck in basically the same design space, some ATs are just going to be flat -better- than others in most applications.

Whats the best Tank Pylon time?

How the heck did he solo Apex with a melee character? Cause blue circles of ‘you die’ prevented me from hammering down Battlemaiden. Maybe pull her out of the blue circle of doom with a taunt? Or was it a bio Sentinel? Range makes all the difference. Those Hydra Heads were murder. Massive inspiration use or a ‘get in, do damage, get out before stacks get out of control’ strat was necessary for me.

Ive seen similar things with Scrapper runs (much more variable than my Brute - Cause Crits or Dont). Sets with mechanics that require you to hit to make the mechanic work are also more swingy - missing a momentum-starter swing on TW can lop 5+ seconds off your final time per miss.

For benchmarks: The top that Ive seen done without activating Assault or Lore Incarnate was 1:07, out of a TW/Bio Scrap. That number could probably be taken just under a minute - that was a generalist build, with softcap defenses and well slotted self support powers - but it was an excellent build and a very good player (I cant crack 1:20 using the same build). After that, very broadly, its Stalkers, then Scrappers/Pet People/Blasters in various flavors, then Brutes, Sentinels, and Corruptors. All thats very broadly. Your 383!/2:30 is a very impressive number, bettering almost any brute or sentinel, and competitive with serious Scrapper/Stalker/Pet People (MM, Crabbermind, Illusion Control). About the only ATs that Ive not seen do ‘wow’ Pylon times are Non-Pet Crabs, Peacebringers, and Tanks. Most of its powerset choice and willingness to spend and experiment.

I know where Nihilii is headed with this. Where hes going, he wont need eyes... err... teammate buffs. 🙂

Id be curious what we look like if we slide into and out of melee, using range as mitigation when necessary... but this -seems- to be putting out less damage than your Fire/Rad Sentinel, which rather defeats the purpose. Ill note that on my Bio Scrapper, which can effecitely ‘hoverblast’ Mynx, she was still dangerous with just her Shockwave and Focus unless I had supplemented my resistance. Similarly my limited RES to energy caused Neuron to be potentially dangerous. But I think it comes to damage. If Stalker Bio cant match Sentinel Radiation at ranged damage, then we may have to look at moving back into melee range - which suggests Brutes for the higher Res cap - or seeing if we can squeeze more damage out of Sentinel without compromising survival.

Its handy to mitigate the alpha, and if your on a large team, your teammates should tear apart or lock down even the largest spawn pretty quickly. The place (for me) that CDF really stands out is when one is trying to ‘do the things that shouldnt be done’, IE the now bog-standard ‘what can I solo at +4/x8’. Some mobs are pretty adamant about insisting the answer is not them, and turning off your character with debuffs if they hang around long.