Infinitum

If you can slip 2 ETs into a build up cycle which is hard but not impossible it does more ST burst. I built it just to do that, and it works but not as good as it did.

Not talking AOE there, Single target. EM will take down a Boss or AV faster than TW. Still doesn't make the set fun though.

Im not asking you to defer, but you are being a bit dishonest if you are trying to sell TW output without momentum being in line with other sets.

On paper EM has the largest ST output there is, still. It's just too slow because a lot of the time you are corpse bombing. Why not nerf TW to bring it in line with EM then? If it's so bad? Right?

I can give you gaudy EM numbers that says the set is fine then. It's still a circus trick. Doesnt feel fine in game because the animation makes it unreliable. Kinda like TW outside of momentum.

It's a very similar situation to EM, just different damage type. Its also got to be built right, and played correctly for it to work, kinda like EM used to be with utilizing recharge and correct attack chain to get two ETs in one build up cycle. Thats why its similar to EM And by your logic about EM its still a solid boss killer ST machine, according to the numbers anyway, how does it feel in game though?

That makes too much sense though, they are blood thirsty for nerfs juat like the same types were back in the day with EM. Most of them never played an EM either, kinda like some on here with TW.

Look chief, ask any former EM player how much feel matters to them and how bad nerfs to a well performing set sucks. Then get back to me. What you guys are suggesting are nerfs for the sake of having something to nerf just to make other sets look less sucky, and if we are honest TW isnt game breaking as is, and you know it. Neither was EM. Its broke now though. So again, agree to disagree with you, but no rambling TLDR post attempting to tell me my IN GAME experience is wrong is going to work with me.

And feel is everything. Take EM for instance on paper it looks OP still. High st burst damage. Go play it. It IMO borderline sucks, to some/most it outright sucks. Take psi melee and rad melee, same animation times as EM, but feel 100% better. They flow better, their mechanics work better. Thats why TW isnt an outlier IMO, it has a mechanic that when utilized it puts it inline with the better sets with cool mechanics, both damage wise and feeling. If you mess up on it its far more unforgiving than the rest.

Never said that captain. I said that if the other sets feel that bad 100% of the time, because TW most will agree sucks outloud without momentum, they need to be buffed because nerfing TW to make those feel better is something that even Jack Emmert wouldn't be stupid enough to do. Well maybe he would but is that where you want to be? lol

Yeah, agree to disagree there, the set feels totally clunky outside of momentum, and you arent being honest if you say otherwise. If thats how other sets Play 100% of the time they need a buff because that sucks.

Did you seriously say TW without momentum isnt unusually slow? Did I misread that in any way or context?

Single target against hard targets sucks honestly. Even bosses can sometimes be a pain, Especially if you don't have momentum. AV fights take a lot longer because they are more dynamic than pylon tests. That's why I roll with my rad or psi usually instead of the TW. Again no numbers to back this up but I've experienced exactly what I'm saying.

And you are wanting to nerf a set you have never played to 50. That invalidates your position in my eyes.

Do you play the set at all, have you played other melee sets? Its a tricky scenario to get it to be OP thats what im saying, if you screw up your attack chain, or get caught in a long animation it can ruin your day really fast. Thats why I choose My Rad or Psi to do the heavy lifting with reliability. I dont have any numbers to back up what I'm saying, but if you would like to join me on excelsior I could arrange a demonstration for you of what I'm saying in normal game play as to why any nerf would be flat out ignorant.

Nobody is moving the goal posts, you can throw out any funny analogy you want but I actually play the set, I know how it performs even with relation to other sets, and it doesnt outperform them to any degree where it's an easy button. It's not even my main or second choice because I think rad and psi melee operate more efficiently honestly. And all of them are IOd out including my TW, I still choose the other two because I need reliability not a parlor trick aoe blast chain. The nerf talk is stupid even though it wouldnt affect my play much, the set would be less fun if it were any bit harder to play and sustain. And you dont evem have a level 50 TW so really that invalidates your opinion right there.

This right here, that gets it.

Thats not at all what I did, I'm simply stating that TW isnt any more OP than rad or psi melee, or contollers IOd out and a lot more. In fact TW is a trick to play and if you mess up its way more unforgiving than other sets. I am talking normal average joe gameplay. Nerfing it would screw with it too much and honestly its ignorant to suggest a nerf on a set that plays well just to satisfy sets that don't.

Yeah because your way you can ruin hundreds or thousands of builds already with incarnates and IOs selected at current brute resist levels. Making half of the selections useless. It's not breaking the game with brute levels where they are at, coming from a player with equal numbers of both tanks and brutes each one fits a theme. Why is it so necessary to nerf Brutes for the sole purpose of differentiating the ATs? Play one or play the other, hell play both. You have a thousand character slots. Sounds like an ego play to me honestly.

as a die hard /EM player from yore and now... No. Why don't you nerf herders go away and stop trying to fix something that isnt broken.

Nobody is running around screaming OMG the game is unplayable because TW has a schtick though. Its fun, nobody cares that its fun and overpowered feeling, it really isnt any more overpowered than rad or psi from how it feels to me, in fact its way more of a challenge to play to capitalize on its niche. If you mess up you are done for a few seconds, nerf it it gets worse when you screw up.

My kin rad is a lvl 25 common io slotted with 2 attack powers. Just so you know, my point is even level isn't what you should judge whether a powersets is overpowered or not. I almost want to call b.s. on you too because TW is barely playable until you have a full attack set, recharge and some way to mitigate the extreme endurance usage until about lvl 30 when you start filling in powers. You must be hitting rest between all those spawns just to keep going. Pylon tests feel nothing like playing the game feels. Like I said my fire tank is extremely weak on pylon tests but feels overpowered in regular game play. You have no reason to nerf TW outside of drawing attention to yourself for some reason and thats the bottom line.

Yeah, I see you saying that yet it pops up EVERYWHERE as if a beacon for every pariah Set or AT with a cause to try to nerf something that's actually working well and as intended. My fire tank sucks at pylon testing but can clear a mob as fast as my TW brute can. I guess when the Rikti pylons grow legs and start spawning in mobs then it may matter to how 99 percent of the rest of the game is played.

Yes.... It is. SS is probably the most popular rolled out until they shelve and move to something else because the change was so harsh. I have one too level 50 alpha slotted even but never play it because of the rage crash honestly. If you don't even have a TW rolled to 50 how can possibly have any informed opinion on how to nerf it based on that tiny snapshot of experience? I can wreck even con spawns with my kin/rad defender so that doesn't prove anything either. Again, this pales in comparison to what controllers and a team of controllers can do. All these suggestions to nerf TW and nerf Brutes is just busybody work for people that dont really play the game to enjoy it but to nitpick it for no reason. Do the apex tf with a TW and get back to me how that long animation or chain works out when the flaming blads of death catch you mid animation. Theres as much downside to TW as the upside. Extreme endurance usage, long start animations, necessity for high recharge, getting caught in a alpha burst damage in mid first animation at the wrong time. IMO my psi melee and rad melee characters have the most balance and appeal, they are slightly slower in demolishing mobs than TW but can take out bosses faster. And they are far less niche than TW, nerfingTW would destroy it like EM because it has ONE thing going for it. The people that rolled EM - also me - mainly did it for theme and nostalgia, guess what another lvl 50 on the shelf because the long animations ruin its schtick and make it borderline unplayable. I dont have numbers to back any of this up, but I'm the common person on the street playing the game every night with all types, and that is how i see it. Theres nothing broken feeling about any of it. Occasionally even being overpowered we get our tails handed to us. Thats fun too actually. Pylon tests are useless in a vacuum they dont move, and their return attack is predictable. It has almost nothing compared to routine gameplay at any level. They should never be used for points of balance.

Well that's how it usually ends up. And for no reason, seriously answer this what in game is TW breaking?